RetroTINK 5x-Pro

[mikechi2]

Yeah, I agree, I personally hate 720p the most

It lived simply because there was an argument for keeping unscaled 720p in -> 720p out.

It is a very good point that there are no products that can stick 240p into a 540p frame and in general on serving needs where no other solutions exist.

[KPackratt2k]

Yeah, I agree, I personally hate 720p the most

It lived simply because there was an argument for keeping unscaled 720p in -> 720p out.

It is a very good point that there are no products that can stick 240p into a 540p frame and in general on serving needs where no other solutions exist.

But what about users of capture cards that treat 720p better than any other resolutions they can capture? My capture card records 1080p at 30FPS (at least when recording to SD card or USB drive), so for gaming that's not very good. My capture card can also record 480p at 60FPS, but the problem is its often compressed to hell, especially because the bitrate it insists on using when capturing directly to disk for that resolution (4Mbps) is too low for the built-in video encoder to keep up with. So I think 720p support should stay, at least for users of crappy capture devices like myself.

[Guspaz]

You're an edge case of a niche of an unintended use... Even if 720p is removed, Mike's not going to break into your house and update the firmware on your RT5X while you sleep. You can always keep using whatever firmware works for you.

[bobrocks95]

Yeah, I agree, I personally hate 720p the most

It lived simply because there was an argument for keeping unscaled 720p in -> 720p out.

It is a very good point that there are no products that can stick 240p into a 540p frame and in general on serving needs where no other solutions exist.

But what about users of capture cards that treat 720p better than any other resolutions they can capture? My capture card records 1080p at 30FPS (at least when recording to SD card or USB drive), so for gaming that's not very good. My capture card can also record 480p at 60FPS, but the problem is its often compressed to hell, especially because the bitrate it insists on using when capturing directly to disk for that resolution (4Mbps) is too low for the built-in video encoder to keep up with. So I think 720p support should stay, at least for users of crappy capture devices like myself.

My suggestion, in all sincerity, would be to get a new capture card that doesn't suck lol.

[strayan]

These are going to be bad captures anyway because there is no optimal sampling at 720p. I have shitty capture device that only supports 720p too btw but I still don’t think that’s a good use of scare memory on the 5x. There are an abundant number devices which can downscale 1080p to 720p that you could add in your chain.

[mikechi2]

I also got my Magewell HDMI Gen 2 for about $50 and an Epiphan DVI2USB 3 for about $100 on eBay. Unfortunately no listings right now, so it takes some time and effort to find. Both of these blow away consumer options like the Elgatos for 2-3x the price. I realize it's not a fair comparison since it's used vs new, but imo, not a huge gamble buying used pro capture cards. Much better than trying to keep dying modes like 720p.

[KPackratt2k]

You're an edge case of a niche of an unintended use... Even if 720p is removed, Mike's not going to break into your house and update the firmware on your RT5X while you sleep. You can always keep using whatever firmware works for you.

Would it be possible to downgrade the firmware to an older version? I haven't bought a RT5X yet because I've been tight on money ATM, I'd hate to buy one late and have the 720p resolution removed only to not have a way of bringing it back. I wanted to use the RT5X as an S-Video to HDMI scaler for my S-VHS VCR as the scaler I had previously didn't like the S-Video output of the VCR. I guess I could keep trying other dedicated S-Video to HDMI scalers until I find one that works. Failing that, look for a Sony Digital8 Handycam with S-Video and use it as my capture card for the VCR.

My suggestion, in all sincerity, would be to get a new capture card that doesn't suck lol.

Since the capture card doesn't have macOS support and I plan on getting a new Mac Mini for video editing purposes, I already have an excuse to look for another capture card after I get the computer. The problem is I'll likely have to resort to getting another one with HDMI but not S-Video because the Elgato currently doesn't support the M1 architecture, so I'll still have to look for a scaler/linedoubler that suits my purpose. Hopefully the next card I find handles 480p60 better than this one, because then I'll be open to using a linedoubler to convert the signal to that resolution.

[strayan]

Would it be possible to downgrade the firmware to an older version?

Yes, this works no problem. You can roll back to whatever FW you need.

[Unseen]

1440 (720 pixel repeat 2) is still a standard CEA mode (14) and 480p was added to really only added to drive VGA monitors via a HDMI DAC.

It's a pretty unusual one though. Is it flagged as 2-times-pixel-repeated (field value 1) in the infoframe?

If you want 480p output so badly, why not buy the more than 3x cheaper Retrotink 2x, designed with exclusively 480p output in mind?

As far as I know the 5X can output an unlocked signal while the 2X is always locked, so it's not a full substitute.

[ZellSF]

If you want 480p output so badly, why not buy the more than 3x cheaper Retrotink 2x, designed with exclusively 480p output in mind?

As far as I know the 5X can output an unlocked signal while the 2X is always locked, so it's not a full substitute.

The 5X also has a motion adaptive deinterlacer and a lot more options. A 2x is not a substitute for 480p.

I'm actually planning to capture something using a Retrotink5X in 480p mode followed by a XRGB-mini as a way to convert it to a standard signal (don't ask; you do not want to know).

[Mr.Ash]

If you want 480p output so badly, why not buy the more than 3x cheaper Retrotink 2x, designed with exclusively 480p output in mind?

Did you read my previous post? I don't want to combine dozens of AV devices or constantly reconnect them just to achieve this and that somehow.

The problem with the 480p output of the RT5X is that it is outside the common specification and therefore causes some compatibility issues. It's just a feature that doesn't work the way you'd expect. Feels to me like an extra level of a video game, which is not really playable.

Anyway, not really a problem for me since I can also connect my video game consoles directly to the DVDO and output as 480p to the CRT. It would have been nice if this was also possible via RT5X and the DVDO would then only act as an A/D converter.

[fernan1234]

Did you read my previous post? I don't want to combine dozens of AV devices or constantly reconnect them just to achieve this and that somehow.

The problem with the 480p output of the RT5X is that it is outside the common specification and therefore causes some compatibility issues. It's just a feature that doesn't work the way you'd expect. Feels to me like an extra level of a video game, which is not really playable.

Anyway, not really a problem for me since I can also connect my video game consoles directly to the DVDO and output as 480p to the CRT. It would have been nice if this was also possible via RT5X and the DVDO would then only act as an A/D converter.

Since you mentioned you use a DT-V, as someone who also uses one I'm wondering what kind of content is it that you're wanting to scale to 480p and output to the CRT. Native 480p sources can just be connected to it directly of course since it is multiformat, same goes for 720p and 1080i. Upscaling SD content would be unusual since this monitor also can display it without need for scaling.

It is also advantageous that it accepts RGBHV inputs so any HDMI sources can be connected simply with a generic HDMI to VGA DAC, in which case the DVDO can be dumped altogether replaced by the DAC, rather than combining more devices. In fact I see having a simple DAC doing this job as superior to having an antiquated video processor doing it instead. And most of these DACs will have no issue with the 5X's 480p output.

I guess digital audio extraction (which I agree is nice to have) would require a separate device, but these are also small and simple and can easily fit somewhere in your chain, or you can use an HDMI switch that includes it.

[Mr.Ash]

Since you mentioned you use a DT-V, as someone who also uses one I'm wondering what kind of content is it that you're wanting to scale to 480p and output to the CRT. Native 480p sources can just be connected to it directly of course since it is multiformat, same goes for 720p and 1080i. Upscaling SD content would be unusual since this monitor also can display it without need for scaling.

It is also advantageous that it accepts RGBHV inputs so any HDMI sources can be connected simply with a generic HDMI to VGA DAC, in which case the DVDO can be dumped altogether replaced by the DAC, rather than combining more devices. In fact I see having a simple DAC doing this job as superior to having an antiquated video processor doing it instead. And most of these DACs will have no issue with the 5X's 480p output.

I guess digital audio extraction (which I agree is nice to have) would require a separate device, but these are also small and simple and can easily fit somewhere in your chain, or you can use an HDMI switch that includes it.

My JVC DTV is even equipped with a SCART RGB input card, which even has a stereo audio output connected to my AV reciever. This way I can connect all my consoles directly via SCART RGB cable.

So why upscale to 480p? Simply because I like this look on the CRT much better than 240p with scanlines. Especially the DVDO delivers a first class 480p picture via RGBHV, which looks really first class on the CRT. All these cheap ADC devices can't keep up with that in the slightest, not to mention the many image optimization options of the DVDO.

For this reason, the DVDO acts as my central hub which connects all AV devices with each other (HDTV, CRT, AVR, etc.), without countless adapters, splitters, switches or the like to put in between. So I have a lean and powerful setup which reduces potential sources of error to a minimum and is very easy to use.

This setup worked fine with all previous gaming optimized scalers (e.g. Framemeister, OSSC), just not with the RT5X anymore because it outputs a non-compatible 480p signal. The latter is just a pity, because basically the design, operation and functionality of the RT5X are clearly superior to the mentioned scalers in my opinion.

[fernan1234]

My JVC DTV is even equipped with a SCART RGB input card, which even has a stereo audio output connected to my AV reciever. This way I can connect all my consoles directly via SCART RGB cable.

So why upscale to 480p? Simply because I like this look on the CRT much better than 240p with scanlines. Especially the DVDO delivers a first class 480p picture via RGBHV, which looks really first class on the CRT. All these cheap ADC devices can't keep up with that in the slightest, not to mention the many image optimization options of the DVDO.

Oh OK, if you're main use case for this setup is 240p -> 480p for your DT-V, have you ever tried an HDMI to VGA (i.e. RGBHV) converter to plug the 5X's 480p output straight into the monitor without the DVDO in between? I don't have my setup hooked up to test, but I would guess that it should work. We should be clear that we're not talking about ADCs, but DACs. DAC is a much simpler process compared to ADC, and even cheap DACs will produce virtually lossless results in most cases, especially lower resolutions like 480p.

Alternatively a good option for you would be a GBS-C, whose 480p output is already analogue (RGBHV) and may even be compatible with your DVDO, especially if further processing from the DVDO is important. Also, one of the BNC or D-Sub input cards for your DT-V may be more practical than the SCART one. You also can handle all the audio lines separately from any scaler used, and there's no need for them to go into the monitor's input cards first if they can go directly into your audio receiver/amp/speakers/etc.

[Mr.Ash]

Oh OK, if you're main use case for this setup is 240p -> 480p for your DT-V, have you ever tried an HDMI to VGA (i.e. RGBHV) converter to plug the 5X's 480p output straight into the monitor without the DVDO in between? I don't have my setup hooked up to test, but I would guess that it should work. We should be clear that we're not talking about ADCs, but DACs. DAC is a much simpler process compared to ADC, and even cheap DACs will produce virtually lossless results in most cases, especially lower resolutions like 480p.

Alternatively a good option for you would be a GBS-C, whose 480p output is already analogue (RGBHV) and may even be compatible with your DVDO, especially if further processing from the DVDO is important. Also, one of the BNC or D-Sub input cards for your DT-V may be more practical than the SCART one. You also can handle all the audio lines separately from any scaler used, and there's no need for them to go into the monitor's input cards first if they can go directly into your audio receiver/amp/speakers/etc.

I've tried various HDMI to VGA converters, which basically works, but the resulting picture on the JVC never really convinced me and often needs readjustment. The DVDO VP50, on the other hand, already has an RGBHV video output via 5x BNC, which is connected 1:1 directly to my IF-CF01COMG card on the JVC. The resulting 480p picture quality is absolutely fantastic.

A GBS-C or similar is not really an option for me, because as already mentioned I am not a fan of larger chains of devices, because I have simply made too many bad experiences with them in the past. Either the whole setup became way too complex or this or that didn't work properly again.

After many years of experimenting with different devices (scalers, splitters, smoothers, converters, switches, etc.), I found the perfect HUB for my AV setup with the DVDO VP50. The VP50 is still high quality and just incredibly simple and direct in operation and (especially) extremely flexible configurable and usable.

For years, my setup consisted of HDTV, CRT and AVR which are all connected via DVDO (with the exception of the ARC HDMI port of the HDTV, this is directly connected to the AVR and ARC HDMI). For gaming, I also used the age-worthy Framemeister, which was also connected to the DVDO via HDMI (and 480p picture output).

Thus I had the free choice whether I want to connect my video game consoles to the Framemeister or directly to the DVDO and had to choose via DVDO only whether I want to play on the HDTV or CRT. By the way, this setup hardly has a noteworthy influence on the input lag; I only measure a 6-8ms higher value via Time Sleuth.

With the release of the RT5X, I decided to send the Framemeister into well-deserved retirement, also because of the assumption that the 480p image output of the RT5X corresponds to the common specifications and thus replaces the Framemeister in my setup without any problems. Unfortunately, this is not 100% the case, so if I want 480p on the CRT, the only way left is directly via the DVDO. This is basically OK and I am very satisfied with the result, but the DVDO shows its age and not specifically gaming oriented processing (drop shadow artifacts, slight ringing, etc.).

But I'll let myself be surprised what will happen with future firmware updates of the RT5X (compatible 480i mode?).

[thchardcore]

EDIT: Disregard the below, RT5 is fine and issue is likely with disc image or Xstation install/firmware.

I'm getting screen tearing in PS1 games at the top of the screen when using 480p output. Some games are unplayable. Anyone know how to sidestep this issue?

[Mr.Ash]

I'm getting screen tearing in PS1 games at the top of the screen when using 480p output. Some games are unplayable. Anyone know how to sidestep this issue?

Probably another negative side effect of this strange 480p image output. Unfortunately, I can hardly test this because both my DVDO and HDTV do not recognize this 480p of the RT5X. But I have a HDMI to VGA (RGBHV) converter lying around which I can at least play back the 480p on my CRT. Must test this with PS1 titles whether it comes here to similar problems as you describe them.

[Guspaz]

I'm getting screen tearing in PS1 games at the top of the screen when using 480p output. Some games are unplayable. Anyone know how to sidestep this issue?

Try experimenting with triple buffer vs frame lock, 60 hz lock on vs off, and hdmi vsync on vs off.

[thchardcore]

Ok. I fooled around with some of them, but I will do so again using a more methodical approach.

Edit: I tried every option but nothing fixes it currently. This is a pretty big deal for me so hopefully it is something that can be patched.

[kitty666cats]

^ I forget, do you have an Extron RGB interface? This should probably alleviate any tearing/flagging if you don’t already have one. I can muse about them in our geeky hardware discussion we have goin’ on already elsewhere, haha

[Guspaz]

When getting tearing it's also important to try it on another device/display (and try without anything in between the RT5X and display), I've seen numerous reports from people of tearing problems where it turned out the tearing wasn't happening on the RT5X but was being caused by some intermediate processor/converter/adapter or the display itself, where they plug the RT5X into some other display and the tearing disappears. This may not always be the case, but I've seen it come up a few times.

[orange808]

That's true. I encountered an odd tearing problem with off-spec refresh rates on a Samsung panel. I returned it immediately.

I forget the range it could display properly. Seems there was some kind of "safe mode" frame rate conversion when refresh rates got too far "out of range"??? I used the DVDO to test it--after I saw the SNES tearing and juddering while scrolling. Pretty simple to see it. The test pattern's scanning white vertical bar stopped moving smoothly as I moved the refresh rate too far away from 60Hz. I left a post about it somewhere.

People probably should be planning display purchases. Plan a full exhaustive test, get yourself a day to test, buy the new display in the morning, test it immediately, and return it that evening if necessary.

[Mr.Ash]

When getting tearing it's also important to try it on another device/display (and try without anything in between the RT5X and display), I've seen numerous reports from people of tearing problems where it turned out the tearing wasn't happening on the RT5X but was being caused by some intermediate processor/converter/adapter or the display itself, where they plug the RT5X into some other display and the tearing disappears. This may not always be the case, but I've seen it come up a few times.

Thanks for this post. This is exactly why I avoid using larger chains of devices. In theory everything should always be compatible with each other, in practice this is unfortunately often not the case.

In my case, however, the problem obviously lies with the RT5X itself, as its 480p image output unfortunately does not conform to the common specifications and is therefore incompatible with some devices.

Of course, one could now turn the tables and claim that my other devices (DVDO and HDTV) are not compatible. However, this problem only occurs in connection with the RT5X, every other combination (e.g. with the Framemeister) works flawlessly, or has not caused any problems in the past.

[mikechi2]

I feel like a broken record: The 480p mode on the RT5X (*5*) is intended to drive HDMI DACs for use with VGA CRTs. It is otherwise an upscaler intended for use with 1080p modern TVs. Do I have to keep repeating myself?

Sigh, I should really just get rid of 480p for the next update. /s

Maybe I’ll add 420p69 per Extrems, hehe. /s

Nah, in seriousness, 480p needs to go so 240p can come back and maybe swap 540p for 720p. This should help most currently underserved needs.

[thchardcore]

Mike - Sorry for having to repeat yourself, but just wanted to provide an update as the issue I encountered had nothing to do with the RT5.

I tested with my old Micomsoft DISPL and got the same tearing issue at the top of the screen. It's either the image or something with the Xstation. Only games I noticed this on were Alundra and Adventures of Little Ralph.

Please do not remove 480P output mode. I am using it with a cheap DAC to drive a VGA crt and it is absolutely perfect now that I have solved my own setup issues. I honestly couldn't be happier with this thing.

[orange808]

Nah, in seriousness, 480p needs to go so 240p can come back and maybe swap 540p for 720p. This should help most currently underserved needs.

+1

[Mr.Ash]

@mikechi2

The issue isn't whether or not you implemented 480p mode just for a specific application purpose, it's that this information wasn't really communicated anywhere. If you are interested in an RT5X, you will only find the information that 480p image output is also supported under the homepage -> https://www.retrotink.com/product-page/5x-pro.

There is no mention that this 480p mode is a speciality for a certain application. So, as an interested party, you assume that it is a compatible format that guarantees a high compatibility. It can't be that you first have to register and log in to this forum, only to learn that there is a completely different idea/application behind it, can it? To criticize something like that I find quite appropriate for my part.

However, I still think that there has to be some kind of reaction, either with a fix (which is unlikely after the conversation so far), or at least a note on the product page. To simply take the position that this is only intended for a special application and you therefore have to please not complain, I find a bit arrogant.

However, I for one would welcome a more compatible alternative for future firmware upgrades (perhaps 480i), and if not, that's OK too.

[fernan1234]

My man, the product is literally called 5X. There's an appropriately named 2X that will do exactly what you want.

[Mr.Ash]

My man, the product is literally called 5X. There's an appropriately named 2X that will do exactly what you want.

Unfortunately, it doesn't do just that. My setup consists of a 4K HDTV and a JVC DTV CRT. Both devices are connected to the hub (DVDO VP50). I want 1080p on the HDTV, but only 480p on the CRT.

And if you had read my previous posts, you would know that I want to avoid the unnecessary combination of x-devices or constant plugging/unplugging, and it has worked fine so far with other scalers like Framemeister or OSSC.

Since the RT5X can also output a 480p resolution according to the homepage, I assumed that this would meet the common specifications as with all other devices, and would therefore replace my aging Framemeister without any problems.

Unfortunately, I found out that this is not the case, and the 480p video output of the RT5X does not provide the expected compatibility. Unfortunately, there was no information about this on the homepage, only here in the forum one learns that the 480p video output does not correspond to the common specifications at all and therefore only provides limited compatibility.

I find such things simply annoying and can therefore also be criticized.

[mikechi2]

In the history of the product, you are the only person complaining about this. Along with complaining about how I choose to spend my free time in developing future directions and features. With all due respect, I find that (especially the part about my free time and resources) to be a bit annoying and perhaps a touch arrogant.