The Sega Mega Drive/Genesis Thread (NEW)!!!

[Mero]

Jewel Master and Wardner Special get a thumbs up from me. I used to love Wardner Special, had the Japanese release of it (don't think it got a Pal release iirc). I knew all the secrets. I only knew what it was called because I'd seen it in Mean Machines, never saw the arcade version back in the day.

[Turrican]

I wonder how many Megadrive games have fallen to a very specific "curse" of sorts. I mean... The hardware was sold in 1988 as the perfect arcade machine for your tv. This was before having a competitor to Mario, and before battery-backed JRPG, so effectively the aim until 1991 was to have the closest ports of coin-op classics.
Of course, with Strider and Daimakaimura, the Megadrive secured this goal and entered into legend. But Strider II was looming on the horizon... It's staggering the volume of cursed conversions that this system received, in retrospective. 1. Ports that couldn't match the arcade, 2. semi-sequels that couldn't shake off the impression they gave to be pale imitations of the original, 3. ports that were altered from the original just like the Famicom had taught the world to do, yet with disastrous outcome. This is what I'd call the Megadrive curse. Of course, you change perspective a little bit, and you can see a bless in its place.

Cursed (or, why the MD could never opt for the X68000 philosophy):

Sega:
-Space Harrier II (what people wanted was simply: Space Harrier. Took a 32X to undestand that)
-Juuoki (never matched the arcade)
-Golden Axe II, III (never felt like adding anything to the first)
Taito:
-Rainbow Islands Extra (all people really wanted was the original, really)
-New Zealand Story (again, could have easily been a straight conversion but no, had to tweak it)
-Rastan Saga II (with sequels like this, the Power Base Converter became a trusty companion for many MDs)
Tad:
-Juju Densetsu (completely reworked stages, horrible muted palette, can't match the original which has a great Amiga conversion)
Capcom:
-Strider II (taught millions to never again buy a game for the name it carries, in the harshest way)
Konami:
-Sunset Riders (stripped down and downgraded with no redeeming qualities)

How many others can you think of?

[BIL]

-Golden Axe II, III (never felt like adding anything to the first)

These two really don't belong in the same sentence. GAII's presentation is lukewarm, certainly (I do think the stirring OST offsets the MSpaint-style sprite edits). As a beat 'em up, though, it's decidedly superior to the first game. Obviously the same engine and much the same type of game, but its various subtle improvements really add up. Easily worthy of its name, even if it lacks the original's marquee flash.

GAIII's simply a mess, and fugly too.

Anyway, some MD ports flat-out suck, as on any console. Thunder Fox AC is a rip-roaring Rolling Thunder/Ninja Warriors hybrid... you'd never guess from the dog-tired MD port. It's almost as depressing as the SFC port of Gunforce.

OTOH Sega's six CPS1 ports (Daimakaimura, Strider, Forgotten Worlds, Senjou no Okami II, Chiki Chiki Boys & Final Fight CD) are quality, Tengen published several exemplary packages (Snow Bros, Marble Madness, Gauntlet, Slap Fight MD), and reworkings like Shadow Dancer, E-SWAT and Hellfire are arguably superior to their source material. I certainly wouldn't say the MD fared badly with its arcade ports.

Juuoki was never anything special, bless its retarded heart... I do like it though. ;3 And I doubt the MD was ever going to handle Super Scaler games acceptably. Stuff like Space Harrier II and Thunder Blade were surely banking on brand recognition. For all those lukewarm outings Golden Axe's port did add considerable exclusive content.

Strider II was an outsourced POS through and through. I don't think it has much bearing on the machine's thoroughbred Japanese software at all.

[BrianC]

Poor Altered Beast always gets the short end of the stick. It's not a bad port at all and even offers a couple things over the arcade (better control, parallax, option to chose the transformations for the stages).

Space Harrier II doesn't match the original, but it still has some nice bosses and patterns. I found it to be a nice game.

I also like Golden Axe II quite a bit. Plays very nicely and has some killer tunes.

RI is an oddity. I find it to be a nice port, but it's odd how the extra stages are locked to extra mode. It also has similar changes to the levels as the NES and SMS ports.

Rastan Saga II can't be blamed on the Genesis. The arcade original is just as ketschy, if not more so. So much so, it was renamed to Nastar/Nastar Warrior in the west.

[TransatlanticFoe]

I don't think there are many poor arcade ports or hangers on on the Mega Drive.

Strider II got other versions so the "franchise cash in" isn't unique to the MD. Also the SMS version is considerably better.

New Zealand Story? I think the SMS got the straight port and the MD a remix - same as with Shadow Dancer. Likewise Space Harrier and Thunder Blade already had straight SMS ports so the MD had to be different because the arcade games were already old hat.

[Turrican]

I certainly wouldn't say the MD fared badly with its arcade ports.

Oh, don't get me wrong. The MD is the best when it comes to arcade ports in my opinion - that is, the best until it didn't matter anymore. With the following generation, the gap was reduced to almost zero, but the coin-op great age was also coming to an end. That's why some of the titles I mentioned before stick out like a sore thumb, exactly because they go against the most impressive arcade pedigree on a home console.
The Super Famicom had tremendous success, but it didn't have anything to do with arcade ports, to be fair (with the single, important, exception of SFII).

There's a specular curse on MD then, which is almost the opposite of the previous one. Excellent ports that were mighty solid but failed to impress the market just because the trend was changing.
Stuff like Shadow Dancer, Chelnov, Slap Fight MD, Midnight Resistance, Tatsujin, Same! Same! Same!, Darius II, Golden Axe - they all range from "flawlessly recaptures the spirit" to "reworking that replaces the original as the definitive version".

I'm more lukewarm on Chiki Chiki and Senjou II, the lack of 2p in the first one is unforgivable, the second "almost" makes up for the loss (from 3p to single!!) with its original mode.

p.s. and I second the opinion that Golden Axe II has a great music score.

[EmperorIng]

-New Zealand Story (again, could have easily been a straight conversion but no, had to tweak it)

Technically, The New Zealand Story's MD port is actually (as far as I can tell) a [fairly accurate?] conversion of the loke-test/prototype board... with the single HUGE exception of not having the warps for some reason (I have no clue why they didn't put them in when they apparently have the door sprites in the game already - a truly bad "tweak" or cut). The maps anyhow reflect the Old Version rom vs what most other ports use (New Version, Japan or something like that).

[TransatlanticFoe]

Third party Mega Drive arcade ports are also a strange exercise in regional inconsistency.

Air Buster, Raiden, Twin Cobra and Darius 2/Sagaia were all common in UK arcades but didn't get a PAL release on the MD. But Sagaia did get an SMS port, likewise Super Space Invaders '91 - which was everywhere in the arcades.

Was Zero Wing MD really held back from a US release to avoid taking away from the arcade game as I've seen written? I can't imagine the European arcade scene would cause a similar reaction but those three non-Darius 2 titles that would have seen me end up with a Mega Drive back in the day! I never got Sagaia on the SMS at the time because it got such bad reviews

[charlie chong]

it's been a rolling thunder 2 day forr me today as i always had fond memories of renting the game one weekend in the early 90s
fuck teh 5th level v
i always remember rolling thunder being a game the big kids played in the arcade which was always a sign of quality back in the day(strider was another one you'd always see the kids in the late teens playing as well.guess those guys are probbly mid 40s now)the graphics didn't really draw the young uns like myself in but you soon realised the big kids played these games cos of the tight controls

i was gonn a say new zealand story levels on pcb are dependant on rom set soooo.still a fun version anyway

[Turrican]

I've added Sunset Riders to the arcade curses list, and offer here a mini-list of cursed ports from other systems that must have really hurt back then:

-Batman: Revenge of the Joker (maybe the pinnacle of NES graphics prowess, becoming one of the ugliest MD titles)
-Blaster Master 2 (this actually isn't a bad game per se, but it is usually loathed by fans of the Sunsoft classic)
-Universal Soldier (this curse is easy to figure out)

[BIL]

Sunsoft's track record was always patchy outside of the FC/NES, afaik. Compare the original Batman games for FC and MD - the former outclasses on every front. Nothing they published on SNES/SFC approaches Gimmick or Batman, either. Tokai Engineering seem to have been the real talent there.

Capcom can't really be blamed for Strider II, which as TAF says befouled many non-Sega platforms. They'd screw the MD a bit later on. Sad how after six superb efforts from Sega, Capcom tossed out a couple half-assed SFII ports and yet more outsourced garbage (Sculptured's port of The Punisher). And Slam Masters but IDGAF about that game, or (full disclosure) 16-bit fighter ports in general.

Would've loved to see a competent MD port of Magic Sword, and I even enjoy the slowdown-addled SFC one. Or an original MD Makaimura to complement Chou, ala Konami's sterling efforts with Contra and Castlevania. But I've already gone too far into what could've been land.

[BrianC]

Capcom can't really be blamed for Strider II, which as TAF says befouled many non-Sega platforms. They'd screw the MD a bit later on. Sad how after six superb efforts from Sega, Capcom tossed out a couple half-assed SFII ports and yet more outsourced garbage (Sculptured's port of The Punisher). And Slam Masters but IDGAF about that game, or (full disclosure) 16-bit fighter ports in general.

Capcom also did the port of Great Circus Mystery/Magical Quest 2 for the MD/Genesis. Odd choice for a port over, especially since the first skipped the MD/Genesis.

[BIL]

Good catch, I always forget about Capcom's SFC Disney games. >_< Still haven't played most of Capcom and Sega's 16-bit Disney canon, actually. Love MD Castle of Illusion but I get my fill of cute stuff pretty quickly.

Would've been a good laugh if they'd brought over their Aladdin. *their much superior Aladdin. :3

[Turrican]

Sunsoft's track record was always patchy outside of the FC/NES, afaik. Compare the original Batman games for FC and MD - the former outclasses on every front. Nothing they published on SNES/SFC approaches Gimmick or Batman, either. Tokai Engineering seem to have been the real talent there.

Yeah, but BM2 is a different case, since it's Software Creations (which weren't exactly a nobody) trying to update a Japanese cult classic. The fact that their attempt is so reviled is a bit sad, considering their output in those years (Solstice, Equinox, Plok)... BM2 is clearly a case of a good piece of software misunderstood due to regional expectations.

Speaking of western developers getting their hands dirty with Japanese classics, I must say I love how Eden Entertainment Software and Takara took their time to finetune a good port of Joe & Mac on Megadrive. Released three years after the Super Famicom version, it manages to remove every flaw of that consoleized release. There's a lesson to learn there: by sticking close to the coin-op they ended up with a cartridge which is arguably better than Data East's own ill-inspired SFC sequels.

[Xyga]

I don't get the criticism with the Toki /Juju MD port, it's quite different from the original yes, and should probably be treated as a different game from a series.
But really by itself it plays well, it's hard, if the graphics aren't ultra-colorful like the original they're still quite detailed, with added background parallax/ripple effects, and in all honesty the arranged music tracks sound much better.
Among the early platformers available on the system it was one of the best, I remember I often placed it next to Decap Attack on the shelf. ^^

[MintyTheCat]

I wonder how many Megadrive games have fallen to a very specific "curse" of sorts. I mean... The hardware was sold in 1988 as the perfect arcade machine for your tv. This was before having a competitor to Mario, and before battery-backed JRPG, so effectively the aim until 1991 was to have the closest ports of coin-op classics.
Of course, with Strider and Daimakaimura, the Megadrive secured this goal and entered into legend. But Strider II was looming on the horizon... It's staggering the volume of cursed conversions that this system received, in retrospective. 1. Ports that couldn't match the arcade, 2. semi-sequels that couldn't shake off the impression they gave to be pale imitations of the original, 3. ports that were altered from the original just like the Famicom had taught the world to do, yet with disastrous outcome. This is what I'd call the Megadrive curse. Of course, you change perspective a little bit, and you can see a bless in its place.

Cursed (or, why the MD could never opt for the X68000 philosophy):

Sega:
-Space Harrier II (what people wanted was simply: Space Harrier. Took a 32X to undestand that)
-Juuoki (never matched the arcade)
-Golden Axe II, III (never felt like adding anything to the first)
Taito:
-Rainbow Islands Extra (all people really wanted was the original, really)
-New Zealand Story (again, could have easily been a straight conversion but no, had to tweak it)
-Rastan Saga II (with sequels like this, the Power Base Converter became a trusty companion for many MDs)
Tad:
-Juju Densetsu (completely reworked stages, horrible muted palette, can't match the original which has a great Amiga conversion)
Capcom:
-Strider II (taught millions to never again buy a game for the name it carries, in the harshest way)
Konami:
-Sunset Riders (stripped down and downgraded with no redeeming qualities)

How many others can you think of?

I disagree entirely.

It is true that the MD was taken from arcade systems as its base and yes it has many conversions but I disagree, some are very good.

Golden-Axe 2 I feel is better than the first.
Toki is a good game.

The main issue is that relatively few developers used the shadow/hilight mode on the MD and it makes a real difference: 512 colours in the standard mode and then 1536 (with some dupes) in S/H mode. A few of the later games used it but very few.

One thing I notice is that generally speaking the MD did not have the best software houses compared to the NES and then the SNES and even Hudson was on the PCE so the MD lost out. But when a decent developer had the MD they did good things with it on the whole.

You can never say that the MD was a slow machine either especially when compared to the SNES - which is a pitiful joke really in my book speed wise.

Far too many SNES titles had to have added power in the form of extra chips whereas most MD games used the base hardware - that is a crucial point as it shows the MD can stand on its own two feet.

Also, the SNES came out much later than the MD - a whole two years was it?

I t is true that some MD games look a bit dark but I think this is largely down to how poorly the dev houses worked their wonders. Most likely it was an issue with information at the time and SEGA may not have tutored and provided enough info to the dev houses at that time.

You cannot dismiss the MD as a pile of waste though.

Coming from a software side of things: you can have ace hardware but only shit games but you can have the shittest hardware but still find decent games: it is software that makes a platform I feel and that comes from really understanding how to use the hardware to deal with its limitations.

[BrianC]

Sunsoft may have been somewhat hit/miss with games on the Genesis, but they did have one of the better sound engines. Not to mention that Super Fantasy Zone and the Lemmings port are both very good. Sunsoft also made some solid GB games, though their later GB games focused too much on large sprites.

[MintyTheCat]

Sunsoft may have been somewhat hit/miss with games on the Genesis, but they did have one of the better sound engines. Not to mention that Super Fantasy Zone and the Lemmings port are both very good. Sunsoft also made some solid GB games, though their later GB games focused too much on large sprites.

I have not played much of their stuff tbh but I do remember they had custom japanese MD boxes that were pretty small.

I really liked the Snow Bros port on the MD though.

As a general rule: the SNES looked prettier but was slow. It had many RPGs and platformers but none of them were particularly fast liek Sonic the Hedgehog.

There very good titles on both machines and I think people miss out if they only play on the SNES or the MD exclusively. Plus, this is years later and no one minds which system was the best as we are no longer in the playgrounds of our youth

Having said all of that, I actually think that overall the PC Engine and the SNES had a larger proportion of the better software houses developing for those machines than the MD.

I have absolutely no desire to ever develop a game for the SNES but the MD is quite attractive.

[Turrican]

I disagree entirely.
...
You cannot dismiss the MD as a pile of waste though.

Perhaps before disagreeing with me, you should actually read me.

The MD is the best when it comes to arcade ports in my opinion
...
That's why some of the titles I mentioned before stick out like a sore thumb, exactly because they go against the most impressive arcade pedigree on a home console.

With my endorsement to the Genesis as best arcade home machine, I actually wanted to sparkle some controversy with 32bit aficionados... People telling me that Saturn or PSX have a better arcade lineup in their rosters. It was never my intention to bring the Snes into the debate because frankly on this subject it's out of competition. I think a case could be made that the Famicom is more entitled to arcade fidelity than the Super Famicom.

I don't get the criticism with the Toki /Juju MD port, it's quite different from the original yes, and should probably be treated as a different game from a series.

That's exactly why I said you can see that as a blessing rather than a curse. If you're a fan of Toki, now you can see that as a sequel of sorts and be happy to have access to both. Back then however, I think it stung that the home version didn't match the arcade (it may be a matter of taste after all in this case, but I really enjoy the arcade more). edit: why I do put Toki here and not Shadow Dancer or Insector X? Because in those cases the reworking is so radical to generate a singular new game *and* the general consensus is that the change's for the better.

[MintyTheCat]

I disagree entirely.
...
You cannot dismiss the MD as a pile of waste though.

Perhaps before disagreeing with me, you should actually read me.

The MD is the best when it comes to arcade ports in my opinion
...
That's why some of the titles I mentioned before stick out like a sore thumb, exactly because they go against the most impressive arcade pedigree on a home console.

With my endorsement to the Genesis as best arcade home machine, I actually wanted to sparkle some controversy with 32bit aficionados... People telling me that Saturn or PSX have a better arcade lineup in their rosters. It was never my intention to bring the Snes into the debate because frankly on this subject it's out of competition. I think a case could be made that the Famicom is more entitled to arcade fidelity than the Super Famicom.

I don't get the criticism with the Toki /Juju MD port, it's quite different from the original yes, and should probably be treated as a different game from a series.

That's exactly why I said you can see that as a blessing rather than a curse. If you're a fan of Toki, now you can see that as a sequel of sorts and be happy to have access to both. Back then however, I think it stung that the home version didn't match the arcade (it may be a matter of taste after all in this case, but I really enjoy the arcade more).

You must be a bit far off: the NeoGeo is the best Arcade machine and the SNES, NES and MD are not even in that league.

You cannot realitistically compare the PS1 and Saturn to the MD, but you can compare like across a generation, e.g. the PCE, SNES and MD - even the NeoGeo is not really comparable to these three spec wise.

Er, yes, you may wish to read what I have written too and indeed answer some of the points raised. Either way, this has not a lot do with the MD if you are taking this tack of inciting the 32bit people. But by all means why not open up another Thread for the 32bit discussion?

I feel that the arcade ports were a lot better by the time we got the 32bit machines but there are many good ports that came out in the 16bit days and they are a darned site closer to their origins than virtually all the 8bit ports.

[Turrican]

Well, when I compare, I factor multiple elements, not just raw specs. NeoGeo is great but basically limited to SNK and little else.

[MintyTheCat]

Well, when I compare, I factor multiple elements, not just raw specs. NeoGeo is great but basically limited to SNK and little else.

Specs true. But the quality of the animation and the production values exceed most. No, the NeoGeo is not strictly SNK - there were many third-parties and after all as an arcade machine it is the origins of many of those ports that we saw in the 32bit days.

You may need a bit of a history lesson, me laddo.

[Turrican]

No, the NeoGeo is not strictly SNK - there were many third-parties

There you go, sort them by developer and count'em.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Neo_Geo_games

We're talking of a system without Namco, Sega, Capcom, Konami, Atari, Williams, Nichibutsu, Irem and so on.

[BrianC]

Interesting, I looked up Visco and the MD port of Chiki Chiki Boys was done by them.

[BIL]

I did detect a hint of ye olde console wars, this page. ;3

Speaking strictly of my own collection... as the gap between console and arcade tech narrows, my expectations of a "good port" change radically. Enough to make anything but the broadest generational comparisons difficult/impossible. 32-bit and up is for close approximations of arcade games, with any bonus content just that. 8-bit typically can't hope to pass 1:1 and has my blessing to do whatever. 16-bit is naturally somewhere in the middle. MD Snow Bros is a disciplined approximation, Slap Fight excels primarily on original content, both are essential.

Context is important too. Being totally objective, I would value MD Daimakaimura less than its fellow Sega ports Senjou no Okami II and Final Fight CD. Capcom Generation 2 (PS1) leaves it technically redundant, where the latter have brilliant exclusives nowhere to be found on CG4 or Classics Collection. I still love MD Daimakaimura the most of these three. The PS1 is a superb resource of close arcade conversions, being powerful enough to mimic a range of 80s/early 90s hardware; by that same token it's faceless, an archive terminal. MD Dai is perceptibly hewn out of the same hardware as Alien Soldier, Eliminate Down, Herzog Zwei and dozens of other favourites. Ditching it because CG2 exists would certainly be efficient, but it'd also be excising a defining classic from a favourite console's repertoire.

TLDR: 32-bit = serious time. 16/8-bit = sexy time. (but sometimes also serious )

Now, intra-generational comparisons, that I can do. SFC's definitely a weaker source of arcade gaming than the MD and PCE; it simply doesn't have the critical mass of quality and quantity they enjoy. However, I'll always stress that its absolute best original sequels, stuff like Contra Spirits, Kiki Kaikai and The Ninja Warriors Again, are easily arcade-quality and can vanquish nearly anything its contemporaries can muster. The SFC's peaks are just as high, even without the depth and breadth of content supporting them.

*port, conversion, I know it's inexact terminology. Want a Mars Bar? Swivel. :3

[Turrican]

I did detect a hint of ye olde console wars, this page. ;3
...
However, I'll always stress that its absolute best original sequels, stuff like Contra Spirits, Kiki Kaikai and The Ninja Warriors Again, are easily arcade-quality and can vanquish nearly anything its contemporaries can muster.

Quality original content: a decisive factor which makes the Super Famicom a success, and incidentally, the Megadrive too (Contra the Hard Corps, Elemental Master and Super Shinobi I/II could be good brothers to the ones you mentioned).

[charlie chong]

the neo geo library is good(especially for such a small amount of titles) but i hardly think it compares to the range of games that megadrive provides playability wise.
the fact the neo never pulled off a truly great sidescrolling beat em up is a complete travesty.they had the perfect hardware to pull it off but never got above average.
even most of the one on one fighting games are meant to be too broken for expert tournament style play though i find them a lot of fun.

[cicada88]

The PS1 is a superb resource of close arcade conversions, being powerful enough to mimic a range of 80s/early 90s hardware; by that same token it's faceless, an archive terminal. [/size]

I know you meant this somewhat pejoratively, but good god if that does that not sound like some early 90s Japan only accessory for the PCEngine or Sega machine.

The SEGA FAT (Faceless Arcade Terminal)

[BIL]

Quality original content: a decisive factor which makes the Super Famicom a success, and incidentally, the Megadrive too (Contra the Hard Corps, Elemental Master and Super Shinobi I/II could be good brothers to the ones you mentioned).

Kiki Kaikai's destined rival can only be Twinkle Tale. :3

The Ninja Warriors Again... its occupying a relatively sparse subgenre (single-plane brawler) helps, but nothing I know of comes close. Kamaitachi is EZ mode even on Hard, but Kunoichi and Ninja are a game's worth of precision brawling intensity apiece. The lack of easy lateral escape subverts the typically low SFC enemy limit, powerfully.

I suspect Namco missed a trick with Splatterhouse 3's shift to beltscrolling - it's a fun beater for sure, but I'd love to see a single plane variation. Monster Rick's savagely mauling style is the most fun I've had manhandling 16-bit crowds outside of TNWA's big blue murder machine.

Spoiler

And while Benkei-Bot 9000 strikes to kill with assassin precision, JUICED RICK beats motherfuckers in a bestial rage until they've shat their guts out! Not even Master Boreworm can laugh... not when his face has just exploded under a merciless hail of gorilla blows!

Spoiler

BAH GAWD, HE WHOOPIN HE ASS, HE GON KILL HIM, SAMBADDEH STAP THA GAD-DAMN MATCH

I know you meant this somewhat pejoratively, but good god if that does that not sound like some early 90s Japan only accessory for the PCEngine or Sega machine.

Oh no, not at all - with 32-bit ports, once bootup's done I want the console as invisible as possible. I'm looking forward to the possibility of optical drive replacements cutting down on load times... would love to just "install" my PS/SS stuff to flash card and shelve it.

Plugging in an MD cart, hitting the switch and instantly getting the gleaming SEGA logo - that of course is different.

[MintyTheCat]

No, the NeoGeo is not strictly SNK - there were many third-parties

There you go, sort them by developer and count'em.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Neo_Geo_games

We're talking of a system without Namco, Sega, Capcom, Konami, Atari, Williams, Nichibutsu, Irem and so on.

You seem very sure of your self but you seem not to realise that Nazca and indeed members who worked at SNK were at the very least ex-IREM - take Last-Resort and Metal-Slug as examples.

A little restrictive in your viewpoint.

Remember, that sure, the NeoGeo did not have a whole host of genres to be found on the home consoles such as RPGs but then it was made as an arcade platform so the market was a little more specialised.

Plus, you were raising ports and the NeoGeo without a doubt was the source platform that others made ports for.