BATTLE GAREGGA REV.2016 (M2)

[parodius]

At least there's gonna be an actual sound track CD

[Durandal]

At least there's gonna be an actual sound track CD

They can throw in a soundtrack CD but they can't throw in a game CD?
Something tells me the problem doesn't lie with distribution.

[GSK]

Manufacturing a music CD is much cheaper and easier than manufacturing PS4 games on BD, it's that simple. They figured their audience wouldn't mind not getting a game on a disc, perhaps they'll find otherwise.

SuperSweep is putting out a full OST, by the way: it'll include the AC music, the Saturn arrange and some new arranges. (The CD that comes with the premium edition is the Rev.2016 soundtrack which has been fully reconstructed from the source data by Namiki.)

[Oniros]

https://youtu.be/cjRe_ahgD60

First trailer is up, releasing December 15.

[HydrogLox]

Manufacturing a music CD is much cheaper and easier than manufacturing PS4 games on BD, it's that simple.

Up to and including the 7th console generation this was certainly true - however more recently small runs by third party companies have become more commonplace, e.g. limited run games where the bare game is about US$24.99 and a game/OST bundle is US$39.99.

[Leandro]

I'm digging the remastered music...

This video apeeared on my rc list, I wonder who these guys are, what they are talking:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5k-zfLn78E

[Durandal]

https://youtu.be/cjRe_ahgD60

First trailer is up, releasing December 15.

I NEED THAT SOUNDTRACK

[Xyga]

This video apeeared on my rc list, I wonder who these guys are, what they are talking:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5k-zfLn78E

Seems they're talking about framerate and speed, the trial and error until they got it right, the superb HUD, then there's a demo run and stuff about the premium edition package.

What a port, that's dedication.

PS: I don't care about the premium thing either, if there's no game disc. Just confirm one thing please; once you've bought/downloaded/installed the game, you can play it offline forever, right ?

[phase3]

As good as the port may be, there's no way i can play these games in a horizontal orientation with stuff added to the sides.

This really is troubling. As someone who much prefers playing tate when available, I feel like I'd be almost forced to play in yoko if only for the obvious advantages it will present. That niggles me a bit. If they could have the rank graph collapsed and in purely numerical form somewhere unobtrusive on the screen in tate, I'd be far happier than having to play it horizontally.

I was planning on saving up for a Japanese PS2 this winter and starting a small collection for that. This has really thrown a wrench in those plans. There are plenty of games on the PS2 I'd like to play, and so far only 2 on the PS4. Should I just buy the Garegga set and sit on it until I can afford a PS4? I do find the fact that the set won't include a copy of the game a bit irritating. I already have the Saturn port. I definitely don't feel like selling it, but it would help me afford all the stuff I'll need to actually play it. Is it worth all the gimmicky advantages? Also, what the hell is a clear file?

Decisions, decisions.

[chempop]

Then play the saturn port if you want tate and no new UI, FFS...

[phase3]

Then play the saturn port if you want tate and no new UI, FFS...

I hadn't thought of that one. I certainly appreciate the helpful advice! Yep, my indecision has been totally settled.

EDIT: I'm not sure why my concerns deserved such a snarky response. I am genuinely a bit torn.

[chempop]

Let's consider the options and talk about the possible ramifications.

1) "No disk waaaaaa, maybe I'll get it on sale, maybe..."
result: they might do well enough if we all have this attitude, probably not.
No more ShotTrigGers games, oh well, at least I got all my PCBs and home arcade. Classic shmups on modern consoles cease.

2) WHAT NO TATE THEY ARE FORCING ME TO PLAY YOKO WITH ALL THIS CRAP ON THE SCREEN
result: prices of saturn ver continue to rise and more people use mame.
No more ShotTrigGers games, oh well. Classic shmups on modern consoles cease.

3) $100 for premium no disk, no thanks. $40 for rental/DL, no thanks.
result: No more ShotTrigGers games, oh well. Classic shmups on modern consoles cease.

4) This is awesome, will definitely support with standard DL release! Would have done Premium if disk was included.
result: M2 can make more classic shmups on PS4, DL only of course.

5) IT HAS A 10K MEDAL!!! TAKE MY MONEY NAAAOOOOO (Preorders Premium Boxset)
results: M2 is overwhelmed by the support from fans, releases countless other classic shmups on modern console and possibly includes disks with future physical releases.

Now if you love shooting games, and I assume you do, the choices shouldn't be that difficult to make.

[phase3]

I'm somewhere between 2 and 5. The main issue I have is that I'm not flush with disposable income. If I already had a PS4 and a NTSC-J PS2, this would be a non issue and I'd be all in on the premium set.

Of course I love shooting games. But I also like being able to keep my head above water with my bills and that. It's not an issue of "do I love the game enough," it's more of a financial conundrum. For me, that is. Just weighing my options.

EDIT: How about we try this. Let's say there was a sixth option on your spectrum of possible decisions that actually approximates my feelings on the matter, just in the sake of fairness. I'll go ahead and make a draft of what that might look like.

6) Oh man, I'm totally stoked! Count me in and sign me up, box set here we come! Oh wait, turns out I dont have $400+ sitting around, not including the price of an acceptable input device.
Result: I can't even pretend to know how my meager contribution will affect literally anything but my immediate wellbeing.

The only real reason I bring this up is because I find the whole "if you're not willing to spend this much/buy this thing, then you dont really like or care about it" mentality a bit problematic. It's precisely that kind of thinking that drives the prices of things like the Saturn port into the ludicrous place it is now. As long as we are on the topic of what we do and how it influences our hobby, give that some thought.
If i were rich, it'd be far easier for me to just buy it and not give it any thought. But alas, here i'm left thinking "to buy, or not to buy."

[WarpZone]

This video apeeared on my rc list, I wonder who these guys are, what they are talking:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5k-zfLn78E

Any word about an arrange mode or other options such as for bullet visibility?

[MachineAres 1CC]

No one cares about physical media except collectors, and there's a lot less of them than you think.

Level with me here. Who is the target audience for a "premium edition" release with nothing but merchandice, if not collectors?

He didn't say collectors don't exist, as they certainly do, but he said there's not as many of them as you think, especially for old Japanese video games. Sure, the hardcore Japanese otaku still exist and they will buy this, but they are a very small group, and the group of overseas people who would buy this is even smaller.

Realistically, there's probably less than 500 people in the entire continental US and maybe even Europe combined who would buy something like this Premium edition, and both the US and Europe have about 10x the population that Japan does. Just because 50 people on a shmups online forum say it's amazing and that they would buy it doesn't mean this is something that will be a huge selling item.

[pegboy]

Ok so they are re-releasing a game that is nearly 20 years old and runs in MAME perfectly, and not even including a game disc in the premium edition? What exactly is the point?

Make some new games or just let the genre die already. This is not what we need.

[cave hermit]

Ok so they are re-releasing a game that is nearly 20 years old and runs in MAME perfectly, and not even including a game disc in the premium edition? What exactly is the point?

Make some new games or just let the genre die already. This is not what we need.

[Shelcoof]

Ok so they are re-releasing a game that is nearly 20 years old and runs in MAME perfectly, and not even including a game disc in the premium edition? What exactly is the point?

Make some new games or just let the genre die already. This is not what we need.

For some odd reason... I sort of agree with you

[drunkninja24]

Well they are apparently making some other adjustments hence the Rev.2016, but ya know

[GSK]

M2 is making a new game and re-releasing these old games is part of a broader strategy to reinvigorate the market before they release their new one.

[Square_Air]

Ok so they are re-releasing a game that is nearly 20 years old and runs in MAME perfectly, and not even including a game disc in the premium edition? What exactly is the point?

Make some new games or just let the genre die already. This is not what we need.

Yeah, because they can just make games for free and don't need to acquire funds to create new software because designing shmups is so financially lucrative.

Also, there is input lag in almost every version of MAME, even Shmupmame 4.2 only removes a third of the frames that are possible to remove. There is Batmame AKA: Shmupmame 3b, but it doesn't like to run even when you add it to the DEP exception list. Even when it did work for me there were sound effects absent from the game, mainly the giant laser turrets on stage 6. I understand the need for the genre to evolve as it is certainly jogging in place a bit recently, and I wish that there was going to be a physical release for Garegga, but if things go smoothly we may actually have a release of Batrider on the horizon like how we're finally getting a release of Dangun Feveron.

With the ongoing support of the independent scene, CAVE wising up to how steam could benefit them, Ubusuna on the horizon, the recent success of the Degica Ports, and now M2 stepping up to re-release the classics for a wider audience, I think the future of shumps is brighter now than it has been in the last few years. If we support them now while they're testing the waters to see if they can still earn their bread I guarantee it will only raise the chances of new and inventive games coming in the future.

[chempop]

What exactly is the point?

Make some new games or just let the genre die already. This is not what we need.

What's the point of releasing one of the most highly regarded shmups of all time on a modern console that nearly 50 million gamers are using? You think this is just for the couple hundred shmups players who have been playing this game for 10-20 years already? For people who already have it on saturn, maybe the PCB, played it on MAME before?

Don't be mindless.

This is the best shmup news and a possible beacon of light for a genre that quite frankly has been on rocky terrain since the 360 days.

For some odd reason... I sort of agree with you

Try looking at the big picture, not just how this release will simply affect you, but as symbol of something that quite frankly I thought I would never see.

The UI is a big deal! High score board per stage, rankgraph, boss timer and hit points, special option item chart, remastered music, etc. This is not just something they should be applauded for doing, this is something they should be supported for doing.

[jepjepjep]

This is not just something they should be applauded for doing, this is something they should be supported for doing.

Preach on, brother!

M2 has been raising the bar on retro releases for many years. You can tell that they really care, and for perfectionistic assholes like myself, their attention to detail is supremely appreciated.

[Square_Air]

The UI is a big deal! High score board per stage, rankgraph, boss timer and hit points, special option item chart, remastered music, etc. This is not just something they should be applauded for doing, this is something they should be supported for doing.

I second this.

What exactly is the point?

Make some new games or just let the genre die already. This is not what we need.

I just hope they don't waste their time bringing something like Dimahoo back, that game was dreadful.

Just poking fun at your mistake, as Garegga might just be my favourite shmup

All jokes aside, getting Dimahoo and Progear back out of the hands of Capcom would be a grand victory for us, if they both got this kind of treatment I would be stoked.

[phase3]

Is there any information on how many of the premium sets will be available upon release, and would it be wise to preorder one even if I don't have a PS4? I probably won't be picking up a PS4 until I can find a used one on the cheap somewhere.
Does anyone expect there being difficulty getting a copy of the premium set in the year following its release?

[drunkninja24]

Is there any information on how many of the premium sets will be available upon release, and would it be wise to preorder one even if I don't have a PS4? I probably won't be picking up a PS4 until I can find a used one on the cheap somewhere.
Does anyone expect there being difficulty getting a copy of the premium set in the year following its release?

I imagine part of the reason no physical PS4 disc is because they don't plan to make a lot of copies (at least less than a minimum print run would require)

I would probably snag one sooner than later if you plan on it

[Shelcoof]

Yeah, because they can just make games for free and don't need to acquire funds to create new software because designing shmups is so financially lucrative.

You know there are many alternatives to raising funds. We've seen it before with Kickstarter where fans have fully funded development for games they wanted to see.

Its not impossible for the shmup community to do the same thing. If fans want it and the developers want to make it... it will happen.

What's the point of releasing one of the most highly regarded shmups of all time on a modern console that nearly 50 million gamers are using? You think this is just for the couple hundred shmups players who have been playing this game for 10-20 years already? For people who already have it on saturn, maybe the PCB, played it on MAME before?

Don't be mindless.

This is the best shmup news and a possible beacon of light for a genre that quite frankly has been on rocky terrain since the 360 days.

[/b]

For 40$? [Assuming this is the correct amount] With the way it is priced yhaa it is definitely geared towards the small group of shmup players. No casual gamer is going to drop that much or even 1/4 of that for a niche game.

But I do agree this is good news... its better than nothing at all.

Try looking at the big picture, not just how this release will simply affect you, but as symbol of something that quite frankly I thought I would never see.

The UI is a big deal! High score board per stage, rankgraph, boss timer and hit points, special option item chart, remastered music, etc. This is not just something they should be applauded for doing, this is something they should be supported for doing.

I'm looking at the news for what it is. I'm not going to try and predict the future based this announcement.

Regarding Garegga's UI its not a big deal for me... I can see it being a big deal for other hardcore fans but not me. Garegga honestly isn't really my cup of tea its just way too hard for me. I play to survive and I'm actually quit bad at the game lol.

That said though the UI is a very minor upgrade in my eyes. This reason alone isn't enough for me to just go out there and support them. I can applaud them for at least enhancing the game a bit but not enough to get my full on support.

I'm a firm believer in supporting games that appeal to me... I'm not going to support a game that appeals to other gamers. They can speak with their own money.

[Xyga]

Ok so they are re-releasing a game that is nearly 20 years old and runs in MAME perfectly

Closer to 'perfect' only if you have an adaptive sync compatible computer setup and using GroovyMAME with finely tuned frame_delay and tweaked USB ports or anything faster (or use a 15khz crt setup to skip all that shit).

The thing is on a console, if the developers pay attention to such things (apparently this is the case here), the port has potential to be better playable than the emulated thing. It is already the case with many shmups ports on the 360; putting aside the often poorer scaling/filtering options, accuracy and responsiveness can easily be superior to MAME.
The PS4 is also a good platform since it's not crippled with too much lag (iirc the Xbone had some by default, dunno if things have changed with new fw since then).

I like emulation a lot, but a good console port defeats everything IMHO, even official PC ports.

[Square_Air]

Yeah, because they can just make games for free and don't need to acquire funds to create new software because designing shmups is so financially lucrative.

You know there are many alternatives to raising funds. We've seen it before with Kickstarter where fans have fully funded development for games they wanted to see.

Its not impossible for the shmup community to do the same thing. If fans want it and the developers want to make it... it will happen.

CAVE tried this, and the fan response was not good. Most companies use kickstarter as a way to "KICKSTART" a project so they have enough funds when they go to a big publisher to say "see, there is interest in this". Shmups do not have as big of a draw as something like Shovel Knight and publishers know this very well. When CAVE tried to see if the fans were interested in them releasing a new title lots of people were outraged because CAVE asked for MILLIONS of dollars, not just a few hundred thousand. Their ideology is along the lines of "we're not a small upstart company looking to cater to a mass audience, we are long time development veterans that produce very niche software, we will not put time into a game until we can put food on our staff's table".

Most gaming companies overwork their employees to the point of absolute exhaustion and expect them to work for free. CAVE is not a company of young programmers looking to network and latch on to giant companies in the future, they are a devoted team of old-hats that prefer to take care of their employees because many of them are old friends. Many people have zero clue how much work goes into making games and figure developers should either prostitute themselves out or find another career. While I'm not personally in the industry, and think asking for 3 million to develop a new IP is a little too optimistic, I can't blame them for wanting to give their employees the salary they deserve. At the moment, CAVE has enough money to keep the lights on and not starve to death, hence all the mobile games. We're honestly lucky they haven't shut down yet and are still working on porting games at all.

If the shump community always decides to keep their noses turned up expecting fresh, innovative, and exciting content to be plopped in front of them in a timely fashion we can kiss all of our legendary programmers, musicians, and artists goodbye. Case and point: Hiroshi Iuchi, the developer of fucking IKARUGA has been struggling to get his newest project off of the ground for over 10 years. Yes there will always be dedicated indie teams, and Team Shanghai Alice is never going anywhere because of the salivating fandom that doesn't even play the games, but at that rate there will never be another CAVE. There will never be another Raizing. There will never be another Treasure. There will never be another Psikyo, Takumi, Irem, Konami, or whatever flavour of (relatively) big developer you personally adore.

This wasn't aimed at you Shelcoof, I just really had to get this off my chest because i'm tired of the community asking "why aren't there as many great and polished shmups as there were back in the day?" but at the same time saying "i'm not going to put down any money until you've dropped greatness squarely at my feet". The unfortunate reality of the situation is that we can't treat the shump genre like we do other genres. MMOs, MOBAs, and FPS games are a dime a dozen and we HAVE to be very critical to promote better game design in those genres, but shmups are a rare breed and we have to be a little less strict about what growth we support.

I myself and many other people on this forum have only been truly interested in shmups for a few years, but there are quite a few people that have watched the evaporation of our beloved genre over a period of decades. We can't keep waiting for this "magical opportunity" that will never come, because we ARE currently living through the make or break point with steam/degica/M2/etc that could possibly define the entire genre for the rest of our lives. I know that I would rather look back on these years and say "well, at least I tried" if the genre eventually collapses on itself instead of saying "I could have done something, but never did".

Sorry to get real butt-blasted on you guys, but even though some people here disagree with me, I know there are others that share my sentiments.

/End rant

[Shelcoof]

CAVE tried this, and the fan response was not good. Most companies use kickstarter as a way to "KICKSTART" a project so they have enough funds when they go to a big publisher to say "see, there is interest in this". Shmups do not have as big of a draw as something like Shovel Knight and publishers know this very well. When CAVE tried to see if the fans were interested in them releasing a new title lots of people were outraged because CAVE asked for MILLIONS of dollars, not just a few hundred thousand. Their ideology is along the lines of "we're not a small upstart company looking to cater to a mass audience, we are long time development veterans that produce very niche software, we will not put time into a game until we can put food on our staff's table".

Most gaming companies overwork their employees to the point of absolute exhaustion and expect them to work for free. CAVE is not a company of young programmers looking to network and latch on to giant companies in the future, they are a devoted team of old-hats that prefer to take care of their employees because many of them are old friends. Many people have zero clue how much work goes into making games and figure developers should either prostitute themselves out or find another career. While I'm not personally in the industry, and think asking for 3 million to develop a new IP is a little too optimistic, I can't blame them for wanting to give their employees the salary they deserve. At the moment, CAVE has enough money to keep the lights on and not starve to death, hence all the mobile games. We're honestly lucky they haven't shut down yet and are still working on porting games at all.

If the shump community always decides to keep their noses turned up expecting fresh, innovative, and exciting content to be plopped in front of them in a timely fashion we can kiss all of our legendary programmers, musicians, and artists goodbye. Case and point: Hiroshi Iuchi, the developer of fucking IKARUGA has been struggling to get his newest project off of the ground for over 10 years. Yes there will always be dedicated indie teams, and Team Shanghai Alice is never going anywhere because of the salivating fandom that doesn't even play the games, but at that rate there will never be another CAVE. There will never be another Raizing. There will never be another Treasure. There will never be another Psikyo, Takumi, Irem, Konami, or whatever flavour of (relatively) big developer you personally adore.

This wasn't aimed at you Shelcoof, I just really had to get this off my chest because i'm tired of the community asking "why aren't there as many great and polished shmups as there were back in the day?" but at the same time saying "i'm not going to put down any money until you've dropped greatness squarely at my feet". The unfortunate reality of the situation is that we can't treat the shump genre like we do other genres. MMOs, MOBAs, and FPS games are a dime a dozen and we HAVE to be very critical to promote better game design in those genres, but shmups are a rare breed and we have to be a little less strict about what growth we support.

I myself and many other people on this forum have only been truly interested in shmups for a few years, but there are quite a few people that have watched the evaporation of our beloved genre over a period of decades. We can't keep waiting for this "magical opportunity" that will never come, because we ARE currently living through the make or break point with steam/degica/M2/etc that could possibly define the entire genre for the rest of our lives. I know that I would rather look back on these years and say "well, at least I tried" if the genre eventually collapses on itself instead of saying "I could have done something, but never did".

Sorry to get real butt-blasted on you guys, but even though some people here disagree with me, I know there are others that share my sentiments.

/End rant

No worries buddy I don't get easily offended lol
I actually like reading opinions different from my own.

Yhaa I remember when CAVE tried this... you just reminded me of it. To be honest though what we can take from that situation there is that the shmup community isn't willing to fork over what the Publishers/Developers think their work is worth.

The community is pretty much saying we are not over paying for product we think is worth much less. Either the Publishers/Developers drop their price or we the community shop elsewhere.

You know the saying something is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it

I'm with the community on this one.

I mean take a look at all those other shmup games developed by indie teams or even a single person. I forget the name for it... I'm sure someone here will know the name for it lol. These guys I'm sure developed these games that ended up being a hit for much less than what CAVE is asking for. The hardcore fans I'm sure will be able to even name a few titles too

I can understand your frustration though. I can really see the passion you have for the genre. I remember back when members of the community would cry for a Western releases and when they finally get one they don't bother picking it up. The most annoying thing to hear is players getting what they ask for but they don't even bother to support the Publishers for giving it to them.

So I feel you on the frustration there. I always do my best to support Western releases even though I already imported the games. Assault Suit Leynos was the most recent example and I'll do my best to support this release as well but it all depends