Samsung F4500 plasma bargain for 480p sources

[Josh128]

I checked out the 51" F4500 at a local retailer today. They had one left in store for $399. It looked awful compared to the mediocre LED LCDs that flanked it. I asked the salesman if the black level would improve in a home environment and received a stern NO as an answer. The only other Samsung plasma option apparently for decent black level is of course the F8500 series and maybe the F5300. I would try the 43" F4500, but I can't find it new locally. I can't say I was impressed with the picture quality in store...

Some of the late Samsung 1080p Plasamas uses a pentile display rather than a true Full HD-panel. I'm pretty sure some models in the F series had this too, so look out for that. It looks pretty weird to me. There's some information about it in this review:
http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/pn64h500 ... 143657.htm

Only the 60" F5300s had the pentile matrix panel. They designed that model for power savings. The F4500's and all other F5300s and 8500s have full RGB panels.

[Josh128]

Here is the F4500 with NESRGB through the CSY-2100 clone converter, compared to my native 240p 36" JVC CRT.

[Josh128]

Few more Pics. Seems that through the process of uploading these photos to Photobucket, some nasty compression artifacts are present that are not present in the actual photos. Anyone know of a photo sharing site that allows for higher quality pictures/less compression??

[Xyga]

Im only getting defensive because it seems like no one believes or acknowledges anything Ive posted here

Arh, so annoying.

You are missing (or deliberately ignoring) several points people make, and you overreact.
You get defensive because you are so hyped by your belief of having unearthed a Sacred Relic and gained superior knowledge with it, that you take every diverging point for rejection or ignorance, when you are actually unaware of what people may really know about stuff or what they seek.
You go to the extent of writing "no one believes or acknowledges anything Ive posted" when a guy as experienced as Fudoh - whom we all trust - went as far as buying a TV set to confirm, and several other posts expressed understanding and approval of what's about this display.

What's wrong with you ?

Whatever...

[bobrocks95]

But thats just it-- the image IS razor sharp for 480p and above-- the "softness" as it were, only applies to the 240p mode, not the other modes. Not sure where you get that the 480p and 720p images on this set have a "softness" to them. That is an absolute falsity. Do the first few Fzero GX pics I posted on this thread look soft? Do the Lords of Shadow pics look soft? 720p video is much sharper on this set than you will ever find on any 1080p set, as is the 480p-- I have the 1080p version of this set, a top-rated, late model plasma (comparable to the Panasonic S60)-- and the much closer to native look of the 480 and 720p signals are much sharper.

It's a genuine misunderstanding on my part, I thought you had directly compared the 480p picture to the "softness" of a 480p CRT. Pictures from an old 3MP cell phone don't do anything justice, so I didn't put much effort into analyzing the pictures, it will be much more effective to see the television for myself at this point.

I can assure you that your EDTV is in no way any better at 480p than the Hitachi Ultravision Digital 36" CRT I used to own, and this set produces a remarkably similar, (even slightly superior in my opinion, due to the screen size and uniformity) to that one.

For 240p, yes, perhaps your EDTV will be sharper as it is an even multiple of 240p, if thats a plus for you thats great, but your set will lose out to this one in all other areas of PQ, as there were no flat panel EDTVs ever produced that approach the contrast of these late model plasmas.

Again, you state things very definitively, like you'll defend this television to the ends of the earth and back. You're right on contrast levels, but I don't care all that much about contrast levels, it's not high on my priority list. You don't really seem to take other viewpoints into account, you're just telling us how wrong we are when we try and say "This TV won't fulfill everyone's individual needs."

In any case-- you should know that by its very nature-- upscaling softens an image, unless its to an exact multiple of the native res. I guarantee you that both 480p and 720p are sharper on this set than on a 1080p set. Thats a fact, and one of the reasons I cant stand 480p on 1080p sets.

This set is also upscaling, which is exactly why I'd want a better comparison between it and my EDTV, because I don't like the softening inherent to scaling (we're literally on the exact same page for this). It's possible that this beats EVERY other 1080p sets for 480p and 720p content, but it's not exactly likely.

You need to take a step back, acknowledge that you've given us the information you wanted to, and let people decide for themselves if this is the TV for them, instead of getting offended when they don't agree with every definitive claim you make about it being the best option for everyone if they're using some particular content. This is a forum for sharing experiences and information, and instead of that, your thread has turned into mud slinging and refuting any contrasting opinions. Just take it easy man...

[Josh128]

I apologize to anyone I may have offended here, it was/is not my intention. I get a little excited sometimes and may get too aggressive, or sometimes abrasive with my points.

Bob, look, Im sure your EDTV is great, I actually attempted to find a decent one (but couldnt find any in good enough condition) before I happened upon the F4500s-- I know what they are capable of. It was wrong of me to compare this set to yours sight unseen. Tastes may differ as well, regardless of a certain look, or specs, I understand that.

Ed Oscuro-- I do sincerely recommend you try before you rule this out due to published input lag (which is within the span of my photo test results, but I do believe the Bodnar tests are a little on the high end, as the lag can and does vary). In the event it just not for you/out of the question--if you are interested in plasma, I still stand by my previous suggestion of the Panasonic S60. Its a highly rated set, 1080p, and one of the last really good Panny plasmas at a decent price. Indeed I owned a 2013 X60, which has decent reported lag on displaylag.com, but I highly recommend you steer clear of it.

Honestly though, I would take the results on Displaylag.com with a grain of salt, as some very similar models, such as the 4500, and the 2013 model E450, vary quite a a bit, as do some of the 5300 class sets. In fact the top rated plasma on the list, the TC-60PU54-- has a review on Amazon.com stating it has terrible lag for gaming. Lots of conflicting info out there. The S60 is well known as a quality set with some of the lowest lagtimes of any plasma.

[bobrocks95]

I'll be grabbing one myself, and hopefully it's as awesome as you make it sound! Especially since EDTVs are incredibly difficult to find, I know the feeling.
Just gotta keep things positive is all

[Xyga]

@josh: It's okay dude, just keep in mind no screen is the alpha and omega even if it's great.
Thank you for showing us that one, it's a rare kind, honestly I hesitated to buy one but remembered it would be too secondary for my use (fake scanlines, low lag, and good overscan are top priorities for me and in that regard it's not the ideal set) plus I don't have enough room for two large sets anyway.
I let my buddies from another community know about it though.

[Josh128]

Some more info and pics of the 4500s.

1. As far as I know its the thinnest, coolest, and most power efficient plasma ever produced. Max power draw of the 51": 216 watts, typical power draw ~81 watts. The panel is only 2.2 inches thick, less than a lot of LEDs, its quite thin. Its also pretty light, 41 lbs with the stand.

2. Full dimensions without stand: 46.7" x 27.6" x 2.2", with stand:46.7" x 30.8" x 9.3"

3. Screen is covered in glass, and is highly reflective.

4. Like all plasmas, if you listen near the rear of the panel you can hear a slight buzz.

[Xan]

The strange issues Xan and others reported on 240p with the H4500 set, I have no idea about-- my set looks even better in person than the 240p pics I have posted. The only knock against 240p on this set that I can say with certainty, is that it fails to accurately show emulated scanlines. If you connect a PC or a Framemeister to it with the intention of reproducing the scanlines as you would on a 1080p set, it will not display them properly.

You should read all of my posts, the strange effect I've posted only seems to apply to composite or whatever, I haven't looked into that anymore. I tested the PS1 in RGB and it works.

Not sure where you get that the 480p and 720p images on this set have a "softness" to them. That is an absolute falsity. Do the first few Fzero GX pics I posted on this thread look soft? Do the Lords of Shadow pics look soft? 720p video is much sharper on this set than you will ever find on any 1080p set

Let's stay real and adhere to the facts, you ARE losing 20% horizontal resolution from a 720p signal on this set. I would still say that it can to these signals justice, unlike 1080p ones, but the effects are noticeable; there is an overall softness to the image, a very faint flickering on edges and the downsampling is especially visible on small text. This is all with sharpness 20 (setting that much higher just gives too much ringing) and compared to my 1080p PC monitor.

[Josh128]

Let's stay real and adhere to the facts, you ARE losing 20% horizontal resolution from a 720p signal on this set. I would still say that it can to these signals justice, unlike 1080p ones, but the effects are noticeable; there is an overall softness to the image, a very faint flickering on edges and the downsampling is especially visible on small text. This is all with sharpness 20 (setting that much higher just gives too much ringing) and compared to my 1080p PC monitor.

Im sorry, but I just dont see it-- I find the Xbox 360 to be much sharper than it looks on a 1080p set. Its a fact that upscaling a signal adds blur to it, and 1080 sets must upscale a 720p signal quite a bit more than an anamorphic XGA panel must downscale it. Downscaling or super-sampling is different and does not inherently add blur-- obviously some horizontal detail is compromised in still images, such as in text on a PC desktop, but in motion the details are there. One of my biggest turn offs in IQ is upscaling blur, and its one of the reasons 1080p sets turn me off for gaming, except for native 1080p content.

As for the "faint flickering around edges" that is color/brightness dithering that is present in all plasmas. Its a very minor effect that cant be seen from normal viewing distances and has nothing to do with the resolution of the set.

I just got through playing a bit of Lords of Shadow and there is no softness to the image at all my man, zero, and I will stand by that statement. For the 360 I leave sharpness at default of 50. The image is so clear that its downright grainy, you can see every pixel and they are pin sharp-- and thats how I like it for ED and HD. On a 1080p set, even a 1080p plasma, 720p doesnt look as good to me, and Im far from the only person to hold this opinion. We'll just have to disagree here.

[Xan]

You're right about the upscaling of course, but a plasma doesn't have these razor sharp pixels like an LCD, it also has that subfield drive temporal dithering which makes things blurrier, especially during movements. Those factors do contribute to a softer image and I don't see the point of countering that with artificial sharpening tbh.

[Josh128]

You're right about the upscaling of course, but a plasma doesn't have these razor sharp pixels like an LCD, it also has that subfield drive temporal dithering which makes things blurrier, especially during movements. Those factors do contribute to a softer image and I don't see the point of countering that with artificial sharpening tbh.

The dithering is just the nature of plasma tech and unfortunately threres no way around that. Motion does look a bit strange at first but after a while you wont even notice it (it was one of the first things I noticed, coming from CRT). One thing you havent experienced with this set yet and wont until a few hundred hours is how the picture improves as the new phosphors age a bit. As 22point8 mentioned earlier, the contrast improves measurably, enough so that you will notice the improvement with your own eyes. It occurs on all plasmas and can actually be a fairly dramatic difference, it was on all 3 of mine. If you hang on to the set as you said you were, you will eventually see and experience this.

Its hard to describe, but the picture will have some major "pop" to it. Ive never seen an LCD that can match any of my plasmas in light controlled room, straight up. One day soon you will see certain content on the set that will stop you in your tracks with how good it looks. Trust me.

[RGB32E]

Some of the late Samsung 1080p Plasamas uses a pentile display rather than a true Full HD-panel. I'm pretty sure some models in the F series had this too, so look out for that. It looks pretty weird to me. There's some information about it in this review:
http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/pn64h500 ... 143657.htm

I've seen the H5000 series - Samsung's last plasma series. The pentile arrantement is fugly, same goes for the OLED displays they've made with a similar pentile arrangement. HDGuru did a review of this set as well and downplayed pentile artifacts. You just can't get a clear image if you're missing subpixels! I can only wonder what Samsung was thinking by releasing such a display. Perhaps in a parallel universe 4k PDPs would use pentile!

They do look incredibly dim in a store next to LEDs-- this is a widely known fact-- the LEDs far greater light out fare much better in the brightly lit store environments. Once you get them in a light controlled home environment, there is no comparison-- the F4500 will produce a picture as good or better than a $1000 LED.

My point was that the salesman didn't acknowledge that the black level could possibly improve in a darker environment. I'm well aware that too much ambient light will make most PDPs made to date (ever made at this point ) look extremely dull. I think the only exception to this might have been the F8500, that has pretty much always been displayed in light controlled retail environments.

I haven't found a 43" model as they seem to have been discontinued earlier than the 51", so...

[22point8]

Seeing Josh's picture of his F4500 it looks grey when off, my F4900 looks slightly blue when off and resists direct light when on.
Looks like my screen is some kind of plastic.






Pics of it turned off to follow...



Flash on


Bonus pic in the dark, Pioneer demo (The KURO Experience)


http://www.demo-world.eu/2d-demo-trailers-hd/
I recommend 'kuro best 1' 'black hole' and the samsung 'plasma pq demo'.

[Josh128]

Seeing Josh's picture of his F4500 it looks grey when off, my F4900 looks slightly blue when off and resists direct light when on.
Looks like my screen is some kind of plastic.

The 51" BFXZA model in my sons bedroom also looks slightly blue when off, but is just as reflective as the "AFXZA" model in the photos. They are both definitely smooth glass. I can see no difference in PQ between the two, but the Samsung splash screen on the "B" revision looks slightly different (ever so).

Also, the screen on the AFXZA model in the pic isnt as light a gray color when off as shown in the photo in normal room lighting, I believe the flash exacerbated it a bit.

[Josh128]

My point was that the salesman didn't acknowledge that the black level could possibly improve in a darker environment. I'm well aware that too much ambient light will make most PDPs made to date (ever made at this point ) look extremely dull. I think the only exception to this might have been the F8500, that has pretty much always been displayed in light controlled retail environments.

I haven't found a 43" model as they seem to have been discontinued earlier than the 51", so...

Most big box store salesmen are extremely ignorant (most, not all ), and dont know the difference between LED and OLED, even less about plasmas. They generally push 4k LEDs like they are the best thing since sliced bread.

If you had the space for it, the 51" is a great set, just as good as the 43". Many people are concerned about SDE with it, but from 8' away I couldnt tell the difference between it and my 1080p 5300. The general PQ on each for HD broadcasts was essentially identical, resolution aside. I found the 4500 to have more "pop", but when I had them side by side my 5300 was brand new and the blacks had not yet settled.

[bobrocks95]

If I remember right, RGB32E specifically didn't have the space for a 51", so it was 43" or bust.

[Einzelherz]

Josh, what component cables are you using on your Wii?

[Josh128]

Josh, what component cables are you using on your Wii?

The ones in the links below. The apparent build quality of them is very high, they fit VERY tight on the component jacks, and most of all they worked magic with the creeping ghost lines and artifacts. They also improved the overall PQ over the cheap cables (actually seemed to sharpen the image slightly, most likely because the bad cables were degrading the signal). I think I have the 6' cables, the 8' may be fine too, but the shorter the better, IMO.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Wii-6ft-Compone ... 3f42d8f4c7

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rocketfish-8-FT ... 43d4ce348f

Now, I have no idea if they are any better than the official Nintendo cables, but confident they are AT LEAST on par with them.

Stay away from the ones below, it was a cheap set similar or identical to these that gave me the issues. Mine looked identical to these, but were white, not gray.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/High-Definition ... 3cedc18869

[Einzelherz]

I've got a set of energizer branded multi system cables that I've been happy with, but since we have a ton of game stores around, I'll keep an eye out for the rocket fish ones.

[Josh128]

I would love to hear more from Fudoh, specifically about lag testing if he has the tools to do so. My tests were over 240p and 480i component ( I also did the photo test on FZero GX), but I wasnt able to test HDMI, PC Mode, and HD resolutions. Also curious to know if native 1024x768 would have markedly different lag than the non native res's.

I MIGHT be able to do another test with a CRT via the DVI connector, while using HDMI for the F4500-- but I hate to use different outputs from the PC like that as it could skew the results if the video card doesnt output the signals exactly in sync. I dont have an HDMI monitor or splitter.

Would also love to see some pics, maybe even how a Framemeister looks on it at various res's.

[Josh128]

I've got a set of energizer branded multi system cables that I've been happy with, but since we have a ton of game stores around, I'll keep an eye out for the rocket fish ones.

I just read the description on the second link I referred you-- apparently a second release of these cables occured and they were cheapened, according to the seller. So be careful. The ones I have look just like his, the connectors have metal housings and the gold plating.

"8 foot orginal quality Rocketfish component cable for original Wii.These cables have been discontinued and are getting hard to find.The output jacks are gold plated metal with split center pins for a solid trouble free connection and not cheap molded plastic.Please look at the last photo.Do not mistake these for the later release junk 6 foot cables."

**Update 2**

Well, I checked again, and while I thought my cables were the 8's, the Ebay auction in my purchase history describes them as the 6's-- "Rocketfish Nintendo Wii HD 6ft Component Video/Stereo Audio Cable ND-GWII1122". In any case, they definitely have metal housings on the RCA jacks, the wire mesh jacket around the cable, and the gold plated connectors. Not sure if the seller above knows whats up or not. You'll probably be OK with either.

[Josh128]

Just playing around with some settings whilst fiddling with the Wii and GC tonight. Played with Sharpness settings and at least on 480p game sources, less than 50 (default) is just not my cup of tea. Below that point the image slowly begins to lose the unique look that I personally prefer in my 480p games, that crisp HD CRT look. It begins to soften, and blur quite a bit heading into the 30s, 20s, and less. It may exhibit less ringing at those settings, but Im apparently quite oblivious to those effects, as I really, really like the appearance of the image it produces at 50-75 Sharpness for 240p,480i/p.

All of the photos I posted with the exception of Lords of Shadow (it was at 50) were at a setting of 75. With HD game sources I can live with less than 50, though admittedly I still prefer a setting of 40-50.

As for the cell light, in a dim room a setting as low as 12 is still plenty bright-- I usually stick to 20 on my "A" rev set because its in a room that has a fair amount of sunlight during the day, and also to minimize the effects of ABL. I can understand Fudoh on this point though, in a light controlled room this set is bright enough to burn your retinas at its highest setting. I have the "B" rev model, in my sons room, set to 12, as it does not see any sunlight. Also, the image quality of this set, like most plasmas, definitely goes up in a light controlled environment. Not pitch black, but a little bit of shade and it really comes to life.

[Endymion]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with cell light of 20 and contrast of 95 on this set, unless you love ABL /like having your screen dim on the fly in bright scenes, 20 is what you need to do if you will have daylight in the room.

-- 93 was perfect on my set when running a calibration disc. Why wouldnt you want to maximize contrast? The set is perfectly capable of it.

[Einzelherz]

I've got a set of energizer branded multi system cables that I've been happy with, but since we have a ton of game stores around, I'll keep an eye out for the rocket fish ones.

I just read the description on the second link I referred you-- apparently a second release of these cables occured and they were cheapened, according to the seller. So be careful. The ones I have look just like his, the connectors have metal housings and the gold plating.

"8 foot orginal quality Rocketfish component cable for original Wii.These cables have been discontinued and are getting hard to find.The output jacks are gold plated metal with split center pins for a solid trouble free connection and not cheap molded plastic.Please look at the last photo.Do not mistake these for the later release junk 6 foot cables."

**Update 2**

Well, I checked again, and while I thought my cables were the 8's, the Ebay auction in my purchase history describes them as the 6's-- "Rocketfish Nintendo Wii HD 6ft Component Video/Stereo Audio Cable ND-GWII1122". In any case, they definitely have metal housings on the RCA jacks, the wire mesh jacket around the cable, and the gold plated connectors. Not sure if the seller above knows whats up or not. You'll probably be OK with either.

That seller claims that the "better" cables have a split center pin instead of a solid one. Which is the type you have?

[Fudoh]

I would love to hear more from Fudoh

time's a little tight right now, but hopefully in a few days....

[BuckoA51]

Also.. f**k yeah Road Runner

[Josh128]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with cell light of 20 and contrast of 95 on this set, unless you love ABL /like having your screen dim on the fly in bright scenes, 20 is what you need to do if you will have daylight in the room.

-- 93 was perfect on my set when running a calibration disc. Why wouldnt you want to maximize contrast? The set is perfectly capable of it.

I love Bert and Ernie as much as the next guy, but when you have a guy who does his own set calibrations recommending the same settings....

22point8

Picture Mode: Standard (Game Mode)
Cell Light: 20
Contrast: 95
Brightness: 45
Sharpness: 20
Colour: 45
Tint (G/R): G50/R50

[Josh128]

Ran a quick test with a lag test program on PC comparing the F4500 to a Viewsonic 17" CRT VGA monitor-- big disclaimer with these results: My video card has both a VGA port and an HDMI port, and I set up a clone setup for the outputs. Not ideal, as to really confirm accuracy you should split the same port, as I did with the FZero tests-- no one really knows what lag, if any, exists between the VGA output and the HDMI output of the video card. Im using a low end discrete Nvidia card.

All that said, the vast majority of my high ISO shutter speed tests returned a result of 42 to 47ms on the timer. I tried different resolutions, native 1024x768, and renamed the HDMI input to "PC", as some claim that helps improve the lag. Results generally stayed within the 42-47ms window regardless of the setting.

Id be curious to see results from a split HDMI signal, to see if theres any variance from these results.