Micomsoft SC-500N1 RGB Capture Card

[BuckoA51]

The Xbox 360 doesn't use HDCP when playing games.

Since the card does RGB, it won't be affected by the black and white issues you had with the composite capture as long as you capture using RGB of course.

[blizzz]

(Rotation in the display driver would make it a 720x1280 stream which can't be captured)

no The pivot function actually changes the mouse and icon orientation, but the signal itself should definitely stay the same.

No idea what I was thinking when I wrote that xD I get 2 frames with rotation (driver or AmaRec), fagin might get better results with a dedicated GPU.

Will the Startech card accept HDMI from an Xbox 360 okay? Is there any problem with HDCP?

The H727 is the only card (that's sold outside of HK) that can capture HDCP protected video (without screen capture or other tricks), but as BuckoA51 said there's no HDCP on the 360 and most likely not on the Wii U as it doesn't play BluRay. Also remember that the card doesn't record 1080p.

Also more importantly, is this card fine with PAL-60 signals through 240p RGB?? My H727 hates PAL-60 and gives a black & white image for the likes of my Dreamcast and Gamecube via composite, only with the Wii via component is PAL-60 okay on the H727.

PAL60 and 240p? Are you using modified consoles? But yea, with RGB there is no difference between 240p PAL / NTSC. Everything in RGB I've tried works (240p60, 288p50, 480i60), the only issue is with 288p component which mixes up colours.

[GregI]

I heard that the old 360's are fine with no HDCP but now even when gaming, HDCP is turned on for newer models. Netflix probably demanded it.

http://forums.creativecow.net/thread/124/874315

Conflicting arguments.

Also I have to ask, what does it matter if the card has 2 frame or 3 frame delay? The only reason I can see is because you want to play from the monitor but just split the signal before it reaches the card? Sorry if I missed anything.

[fagin]

I'm getting 30ms delay with EVR & Aero with Amarec.
I need these settings to discount tearing. This is using the biggest capture window I can (to get timestamp etc).

EVR & AERO and Rotation with Amarec is 30ms delay.

EVR & AERO with Amarec and Rotation with GFX Card is 30ms delay.

However....
Video Keeper (Micomsoft Capture SW) & AERO is consistently 16/17ms delay AND no tearing issues.



It's Video Keeper for me.

[dieKatze88]

Just saying. The clever person can get around HDCP with an all digital signal. I have recordings of NFL Network done over HDMI that prove this. NOT Using the software hack available for my card either.

[Fudoh]

Also I have to ask, what does it matter if the card has 2 frame or 3 frame delay? The only reason I can see is because you want to play from the monitor but just split the signal before it reaches the card? Sorry if I missed anything.

The reason I'm asking for the delay is because I'm considering such a setup for screen rotation on TATE games. E.g. playing an Ibara PCB without having a vertical monitor or TV Set.

[fagin]

Also I have to ask, what does it matter if the card has 2 frame or 3 frame delay? The only reason I can see is because you want to play from the monitor but just split the signal before it reaches the card? Sorry if I missed anything.

The reason I'm asking for the delay is because I'm considering such a setup for screen rotation on TATE games. E.g. playing an Ibara PCB without having a vertical monitor or TV Set.

Split the signal? How are you supposed to do that and still play on a LCD screen with great quality?

This solution is now a viable way of using your PC to not only effectively capture your retro video, but also enable you to play your retro console through your PC.

[blizzz]

I can live with 3 frames delay. Tried the Megaton Punch minigame in Kirby's Fun Pak and get perfect scores, but I suppose I just adjusted to the lag. There's no way I can beat the Samurai minigame in which you have no way to anticipate the mark though, my best is 12 frames reaction time. Funnily playing in AmaRec is slightly faster than my linedoubler. Maybe I'm just too rusted for oldschool reflex games... Need to try that one again with my old CRT (which I don't have here :/ ).

For casual gaming 1-3 frames delay (plus LCD input lag) is totally fine, but if you really depend on your reflexes you have no other way than to use a splitter with a CRT.

[GregI]

Split the signal? How are you supposed to do that and still play on a LCD screen with great quality?

Obviously at the time I did not know the goal of Fudoh and TATE games.

But couldn't this still be accomplished for normal consoles if needed? An amplifier would be used to and simply fed to the card and then an LCD screen (In my situation the LCD being a 40" Sony which accepts RGB SCART).

[fagin]

No.

This is about recognising 240p as 240p and not 480i and deinterlacing it.

Read Fudoh's website about how this can effect quality and lag, on all but specialised processors.

This card is pretty awesome at the price, and provides another option to not only capture, but also live play with great quality and next to no lag. The fact that you can rotate the video is the icing on the cake IMO.

[GregI]

I forgot about that. This video comes to mind: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pele5vptVgc

[fagin]

[Vixtro]

The Xbox 360 doesn't use HDCP when playing games.

Since the card does RGB, it won't be affected by the black and white issues you had with the composite capture as long as you capture using RGB of course.

Okay, cool, thanks for clearing that up!

Also more importantly, is this card fine with PAL-60 signals through 240p RGB?? My H727 hates PAL-60 and gives a black & white image for the likes of my Dreamcast and Gamecube via composite, only with the Wii via component is PAL-60 okay on the H727.

PAL60 and 240p? Are you using modified consoles? But yea, with RGB there is no difference between 240p PAL / NTSC. Everything in RGB I've tried works (240p60, 288p50, 480i60), the only issue is with 288p component which mixes up colours.

Okay here is where the confusion sets in (for me at least anyway, lol), I always assumed PAL-60 was the same as NTSC since they're both 60Hz, but I've always had problems capturing PAL-60 with capture devices unless they support it fully. My old capture card was fine with PAL-60, my current H727 hates PAL-60 unless it's through component. With the H727, the option is there for PAL-60 via composite, but I don't think it's actually on the hardware because it always forces standard PAL even when it's a 60Hz signal. I figured I'd just be able to set it to NTSC and it would be fine, but no, that gives a distorted black & white picture.

Talking about 288p50 though, is that what my PAL Sega Saturn & games will all be running? If so, that would be fine with the Startech card as long as I run RGB SCART to VGA/DVI via a Sync Strike right?

[Fudoh]

Tenchically PAL60 can only exist in composite and s-video formats. PAL60 uses a different color carrier frequency than real NTSC. If you use component it doesn't matter. If you use RGBs it doesn't matter either, as long you use raw clean sync.

If you're using RGBs with composite video as sync (so PAL60 in the composite channel), some machines might get thrown off.

[blizzz]

Okay here is where the confusion sets in (for me at least anyway, lol), I always assumed PAL-60 was the same as NTSC since they're both 60Hz, but I've always had problems capturing PAL-60 with capture devices unless they support it fully. My old capture card was fine with PAL-60, my current H727 hates PAL-60 unless it's through component. With the H727, the option is there for PAL-60 via composite, but I don't think it's actually on the hardware because it always forces standard PAL even when it's a 60Hz signal. I figured I'd just be able to set it to NTSC and it would be fine, but no, that gives a distorted black & white picture.

Talking about 288p50 though, is that what my PAL Sega Saturn & games will all be running? If so, that would be fine with the Startech card as long as I run RGB SCART to VGA/DVI via a Sync Strike right?

I had the same problems with my H727, it doesn't seem to accept PAL60.
The difference between NTSC and PAL are basically 1. frequency (60Hz vs 50Hz), 2. lines (240 vs 288 for lowres), 3. colour coding (that's why NTSC appears b/w on PAL TVs). PAL60 has frequency and lines like NTSC but still PAL colours. With RGB you replace the NTSC/PAL colour coding which makes it much easier. PAL consoles will all work fine if you connect them with RGB to the Sync Strike and then to the SC-500N1 / StarTech card.


Can anyone tell me if I could use a cheap powered VGA splitter to record while still playing on the TV? Like one of these which are sold for <20€ on eBay. My idea was Console > Sync Strike > Splitter and then one VGA cable to the capture card and one VGA to SCART cable to the TV. Would this work or do CRT TVs have problems with clean sync?

[Fudoh]

will work fine. Clean sync is no problem. Really cheap distributors or switches might screw up the termination which might cause irregularities with the brightness though.

[BuckoA51]

The difference between NTSC and PAL are basically 1. frequency (60Hz vs 50Hz)

Remember this can cause problems too, since the timing of PAL and NTSC video clocks is different, a PAL console forced to NTSC might end up with a refresh that's out of spec, Megadrive/Genesis seems to be a problem in my experience. I don't know if this is an issue for the Micomsoft/Startech card I suspect not, it's just something that's not widely known to keep in mind.

[fagin]

The difference between NTSC and PAL are basically 1. frequency (60Hz vs 50Hz)

Remember this can cause problems too, since the timing of PAL and NTSC video clocks is different, a PAL console forced to NTSC might end up with a refresh that's out of spec, Megadrive/Genesis seems to be a problem in my experience. I don't know if this is an issue for the Micomsoft/Startech card I suspect not, it's just something that's not widely known to keep in mind.

No problem for my PAL converted MD and tbh I never thought twice about it as I just switched the connection from my CRT TV.

Perhaps I should try my PCE!

[BuckoA51]

Yeah the capture card seems pretty tolerant, it was using the PAL converted MD on the XRGB3/Mini that I had issues.

[Vixtro]

Okay here is where the confusion sets in (for me at least anyway, lol), I always assumed PAL-60 was the same as NTSC since they're both 60Hz, but I've always had problems capturing PAL-60 with capture devices unless they support it fully. My old capture card was fine with PAL-60, my current H727 hates PAL-60 unless it's through component. With the H727, the option is there for PAL-60 via composite, but I don't think it's actually on the hardware because it always forces standard PAL even when it's a 60Hz signal. I figured I'd just be able to set it to NTSC and it would be fine, but no, that gives a distorted black & white picture.

Talking about 288p50 though, is that what my PAL Sega Saturn & games will all be running? If so, that would be fine with the Startech card as long as I run RGB SCART to VGA/DVI via a Sync Strike right?

I had the same problems with my H727, it doesn't seem to accept PAL60.
The difference between NTSC and PAL are basically 1. frequency (60Hz vs 50Hz), 2. lines (240 vs 288 for lowres), 3. colour coding (that's why NTSC appears b/w on PAL TVs). PAL60 has frequency and lines like NTSC but still PAL colours. With RGB you replace the NTSC/PAL colour coding which makes it much easier. PAL consoles will all work fine if you connect them with RGB to the Sync Strike and then to the SC-500N1 / StarTech card.


Can anyone tell me if I could use a cheap powered VGA splitter to record while still playing on the TV? Like one of these which are sold for <20€ on eBay. My idea was Console > Sync Strike > Splitter and then one VGA cable to the capture card and one VGA to SCART cable to the TV. Would this work or do CRT TVs have problems with clean sync?

All good, seems everything is a go for me, just need to find a decent vendor for the card now then.

Also, I'm going to look into the VGA splitting like you suggested, seems like a great idea.

[BuckoA51]

One thing you might want to note about VGA splitters, they don't all handle interlace. I've a Startech one and it messes up interlace content entirely. There are SCART splitters too, Keene electronics do one and there was a good one called the SC-AMP2 but it seems to be discontinued.

[blizzz]

One thing you might want to note about VGA splitters, they don't all handle interlace. I've a Startech one and it messes up interlace content entirely. There are SCART splitters too, Keene electronics do one and there was a good one called the SC-AMP2 but it seems to be discontinued.

Thanks for the advice! There's a Keene one on ebay.co.uk, for a mere 10 pound plus 55 pound shipping at the moment. Is there any way to tell if a device works with 15kHz signals? Have been looking at some like this, this and this one. Could it be a problem for the capture card if the signal is amplified too much?

[BuckoA51]

Unless it says 15khz specifically on the spec sheet it's anyone's guess.

I found somewhere that seems to carry the SC-AMP2 in the UK, try here http://www.interneeds.com/distribution.htm

[blizzz]

Unless it says 15khz specifically on the spec sheet it's anyone's guess.
I found somewhere that seems to carry the SC-AMP2 in the UK, try here http://www.interneeds.com/distribution.htm

Nice, but kinda expensive with shipping (~60€). I think I'll invest 15€ more in a 6x3 SCART matrix (Marmtek Connect 236).

I also tried the card in my quadcore machine with dedicated GPU (Q9450 + HD4870) and got exactly the same results as with my low power i3. But I think there are two kinds of games / gamers: those that are still perfectly fine with 3+1 (card + monitor) frame delay and those who absolutely need 0 frame delay. The later obviously requires a splitter anyway, so I'm happy with the performance of the SC-500N1. Maybe the StarTech card is a bit faster as it's a newer revision, but at this point I don't really care anymore.

[BuckoA51]

Never tried one of those Marmtek units, if you do go for one will you let me know how it performs? Be a good one to document on my SCART switcher page.

[GregI]

Ordered the StarTech today so might be here Friday if lucky. I have a 2500k and a 6850 GPU so can confirm if any additional beef hardware makes a difference in delay.

[Tranquilite]

I just got my Startech card, and I am happy to say that my homemade sync splitter works. However, video samples from my Super Famicom show that my video is a bit jittery, and there seems to be a bit of noise to boot. I may want to switch to using pure sync rather than composite video for my sync splitter to see of that clears things up at all.

[blizzz]

Never tried one of those Marmtek units, if you do go for one will you let me know how it performs? Be a good one to document on my SCART switcher page.

Will do, but buying it is not the top priority on my todo list so it might take a while (~months).

I may want to switch to using pure sync rather than composite video for my sync splitter to see of that clears things up at all.

Please make some comparison shots if you get the pure sync cable. Reminds me that retroaccess never replied to my mail...

@Fudoh You contacted retroaccess some time ago to ask why she doesn't send stuff to Germany anymore, did you get an answer?

[fagin]

Tranquilite,
I can't see why a pure sync signal over a cleaned composite video to sync signal, would provide a better picture?!

Noise on the SNES has been discussed before I think, with general cable quality being a factor. Depending on what you refer to as noise, may also be associated to the "blurring" effect coming from certain mainboard revisions.

I'll give my SNES a blast tonight to see what it looks like on my set-up.

[BuckoA51]

Pure sync did seem to improve things for my Super Famicom, but mainly when going into 50hz mode for that odd PAL cartridge I have lying around. It certainly can't hurt to try it.

The Retro-console-accessories SCART I'm now using (her 2nd design) definitely improved picture and sound, there's still a tiny bit of noise where white text can have a ghosting effect, for instance, but nothing I can't live with now.