Why shmups are such a niche genre

[monkeyman]

personally what i would like to see is some story and alternative paths. For the story we could have it playing the game instead of cutscenes, like for example in a small window or border plus voice acting so that it doesnt get in the way of gameplay.

For the alternative paths i mean not something like Darius (although that in itself it geat and should be in more shmups then it currently is) but im talking about alternating branches in a stage. eather parts in a stage that scroll sideways (in a vert) which allow you to take different routes to the end boss or maybe just something akin to the darius route method but instead of choosing at the start of the stage have the feature inside the stage with one route harder then another route, it could even be co-op where each player goes down a different route and must destroy a core or something to unlock extra routes in the game (or extra score)

So basically a 2d version of Starfox then? I'd be interested to see this sort of thing implemented into a shmup.

As for the rest of the RPG elements idea? I think having towns to wonder around and dice rolls to determine damage etc would kill the game completely. That's not to say you couldn't look at some elements in RPGs and use them in a way that would work in a shmup.

Instead of leveling up etc just have a deep upgrade system accessed from a single screen between levels. Take the idea of enemies having strenghts / weakneses to different weapons (I think Ikagura already did that), or toy around with status ailments on both enemies and the player. Could be interesting if instead of killing / damaging you, an enemy could disable your weapons or slow you down for a few seconds.

And giving the option of replaying levels, or adding randomly generated levels for 'grinding' purposes (ie amassing enough money for different upgrades) may well be seen by the wider gaming community as making the game more accessible and adding longetivety (why people won't play a level over and over in a shmup to attain the skill to succeed but will happily play the same battle over and over in an rpg to gain exp or get a rare item is beyond me). It may not add any real longetivity to the game considering how many hours people put into perfecting their score run or 1ccing a regular shmup but with these things perception is everything.

I'm not saying any of this this would revolutionise the genre and I'm sure pretty much all of these ideas would appeal more to non shmup fans than to existing fans (which is kind of the point I guess) but I think a bit of experimentation is always a good thing, even if the end result is trash there's always the chance of a breakthrough.

[xris]

kof sky stage is claiming to have branching stages, with different bosses depending on branch and team selection. Add in the various attack types and character differences, and we've got something.

[EPS21]

Another factor that contributes to the downfall of shmups is the length of a shooter.

Give an average (I don't want to say "casual") gamer a choice between a 70-hour JRPG with lots of padding and a 40-minute shmup where the longest break (save for stage cleared screens) is about five seconds. Which game is he gonna pick?

But at the same time, a 70-hour shooter would be very straining on the level designers and on players. It's a no-win situation here.

If a big company put in the budget for a typical triple-A title for a 70 long hour shmup, it could certainly be feasible to have quality and varied stages the whole way through, obviously put in some save points, and a good story to compel the player to see what happens in the end.

Games of this length should probably ditch a complex scoring system in favor of something simple like old blast-em-ups; I certainly wouldn't want to replay something that huge just for a chance at a better score.

The problem with making a shmup of this caliber today is that its way too risky, it'd need some very good marketing to get people to actually buy it. I think Square-Enix could be up to the task, and hire all of CAVE's talent for the basic game engine and bullet patterns. Too bad we'll probably never see a game like this to test if a long shmup can actually be good.

[Mortificator]

I don't see any advantage to putting out one game with eighty stages instead of ten games with eight stages.

[xris]

We'll get to try this long shmup idea this year. Eclosion for xbla, 40 levels with upgrades to weapons and ship. Devs are willing to give these ideas a try. It's up to us to support it, and respond.

[Udderdude]

We'll get to try this long shmup idea this year. Eclosion for xbla, 40 levels with upgrades to weapons and ship. Devs are willing to give these ideas a try. It's up to us to support it, and respond.

40 levels with .. how much variety? How well built will each level be? How much time are you putting into each one?

[captpain]

I don't want to support a 40-level long shmup.

[brentsg]

I cannot believe this has gone on 7 pages.

Shmups are a niche genre because not very many people like them.

/thread

[EPS21]

I cannot believe this has gone on 7 pages.

Shmups are a niche genre because not very many people like them.

/thread

Yes, and this thread is addressing the "why" behind it, something not so concrete

[chempop]

Shmups are so niche because the fans of the genre AREN'T REPRODUCING FAST ENOUGH . This about it, a lot of kids these days play the same video games that their Dad's play. For example, I have a 1st grade student who plays CoD:MW2... he's been playing Call of Duty since he was three years old

[CptRansom]

Shmups are so niche because the fans of the genre AREN'T REPRODUCING FAST ENOUGH . This about it, a lot of kids these days play the same video games that their Dad's play. For example, I have a 1st grade student who plays CoD:MW2... he's been playing Call of Duty since he was three years old

That's terrifying! I think all kids should be brought up on 8- or 16-bit games (at a minimum - bonus points for Atari and older) and then worked forward at a slightly accelerated pace.

Oh, and I guess kids shouldn't be playing violent games that are rated Mature, blah blah blah. Whatever.

[brentsg]

I cannot believe this has gone on 7 pages.

Shmups are a niche genre because not very many people like them.

/thread

Yes, and this thread is addressing the "why" behind it, something not so concrete

[SockPuppetHyren]

But at the same time, a 70-hour shooter would be very straining on the level designers and on players. It's a no-win situation here.

They could always go the Baroque route and have players clear the main game multiple times, opening up more story details and extra levels as they go along.

Of course, seeing how well that game got accepted in the mainstream, it may just make things worse.

[Spiderift]

I cannot believe this has gone on 7 pages.

Shmups are a niche genre because not very many people like them.

/thread

Yes, and this thread is addressing the "why" behind it, something not so concrete

I remembered this mentioned somewhere earlier in this thread (ages ago), but you can first start off with awareness. Every time I try to explain what kind of game a shmup is, the closest example I can give is Space Invaders or Gradius. Occasionally, I'll bump into people who know Tyrian, or for a more recent game, Ikaruga. I wouldn't have even be exposed to shmups if not for 2 particular friends I met just about a year ago. This might be spreading though, since I'm noticing news about shmups cropping up in say, Kotaku. The XBox 360 is certainly getting a good number of shmups.

Besides that, shmups just provide a different type of fun: the sort that forces you to learn. Maybe some shmups have eye candy and that might be rewarding for some people, but unlike RPGs/MMOs, there's really no sense of having earned something for keeps. Every game is started from scratch. Neither does it have the same sense of direct competitiveness like FPS games. And these types of 'fun' are what mainstream gamers look for.

There's been so much talk in this thread about how to make it more appealing to the masses. Awareness is one thing, but gameplay-wise, I think it boils down to every game designer's much-hated foe: difficulty settings. Trying to make a game that's easy/doable enough yet still fun to play is a chore in itself. I'm not really a fan of mixing RPG mechanics in to grant that feeling of grinding for incremental rewards... Maybe if the game was actually long enough. But by the time you're done designing such a game, I'd be hesitant to even call it a shmup at that point.

[BrightSuzaku]

They could always go the Baroque route and have players clear the main game multiple times, opening up more story details and extra levels as they go along.

Of course, seeing how well that game got accepted in the mainstream, it may just make things worse.

This IS interesting. I like this idea... Also curious to see if such an idea will mean that dying will have any use other than sniping our score and making us feel crappy. XD

I'm interested in a shmup with a more immersible storyline...

[SolidSystem]

How 'bout a direct comparison: Shmups(DDP, Gradius etc.) Vs. Fighting Games(SF, Tekken etc.)

I think we all agree that fighting games are much more popular than Shmups and most of us who play both would agree that they share many of the same attributes: they're both short(in terms of "finishing" the game), both require alot of technical/strategic skill(are hard to master) and both are competetive.

So why are Fighting Games so much more popular(and more positive critically) than Shmups?

I have alot of ideas on this but I will say that aside from the artistic differences the only gameplay difference which I've always thought would work for shmups is a round based system. In fighting games you have to win 2/3 rounds to proceed to the next match. I've always advocated that shmups should go to a "round based system" where you have 2 or 3 tries(each try starts the level from scratch) to beat a level before proceeding to the next level and then on the next level you restart with zero powerups(ala a fighting game where you restart each round from scratch). This alone would remove the credit feeding excuse we get from alot of reviews and I think people would be more fullfilled when "beating" a shmup.

Puzzle/Rythm games have the same characteristic in not having credit feeding and using a "round based" system where you either beat the level or you have to start over and those are also more popular than shmups.

[orange]

why don't most of you get that shmups will not have "mainstream" success unless you make them awful so retards can play them

[spl]

How 'bout a direct comparison: Shmups(DDP, Gradius etc.) Vs. Fighting Games(SF, Tekken etc.)

I think we all agree that fighting games are much more popular than Shmups and most of us who play both would agree that they share many of the same attributes: they're both short(in terms of "finishing" the game), both require alot of technical/strategic skill(are hard to master) and both are competetive.

So why are Fighting Games so much more popular(and more positive critically) than Shmups?

I have alot of ideas on this but I will say that aside from the artistic differences the only gameplay difference which I've always thought would work for shmups is a round based system. In fighting games you have to win 2/3 rounds to proceed to the next match. I've always advocated that shmups should go to a "round based system" where you have 2 or 3 tries(each try starts the level from scratch) to beat a level before proceeding to the next level and then on the next level you restart with zero powerups(ala a fighting game where you restart each round from scratch). This alone would remove the credit feeding excuse we get from alot of reviews and I think people would be more fullfilled when "beating" a shmup.

Puzzle/Rythm games have the same characteristic in not having credit feeding and using a "round based" system where you either beat the level or you have to start over and those are also more popular than shmups.

I think I can give a reasonable answer now that I have read this post.

I believe the majority of video game players (Arcade or otherwise) are basically "casual" players. This means that they enjoy the games and play them but they rarely go to the lengths to master games or spend a prolonged period of time on a single game.

In terms of comparing to fighting games - I think the difference there lies in the fact that you are DIRECTLY competing against another human instead of competing against the computer like in a shmup. This is what drives the fighting game scene and also the racing game scene.

The difference is clear in racing games such as Wangan Midnight Maximum Tune and Initial D. Both these games have got huge fanbases and the MAJORITY of players are drawn to it for the VS mode. They play their friends or whatever and build up their wins, stuff like this is what makes them play the game. The other side of this are the people who competitively play Time Attack in these games. These are the MINORITY who choose to play the game at a deeper level and spend a long time learning it and squeezing every bit out of it.

The reason why shmups only have a minority playing them is because basically they are the equivalent of Time Attack in a racing game. They require huge amounts of time and effort to get right and for the average casual player this is quite daunting and not fun for them when they can't directly beat their friends or build up some sort of achievement feeling.

So I guess the statement that they are too hard for the average gamer is sort of right, the difference I believe is what the gamer wants from the gaming experience. With shmups it's basically high learning curve with high reward and most people will opt for an easier learning curve when it comes to video games otherwise they just don't have fun with them.

[Kollision]

why don't most of you get that shmups will not have "mainstream" success unless you make them awful so retards can play them

+1

[captpain]

Yes... the most attractive characteristic of fighting games is the direct pitting of your own brain against another brain. Shmups don't really do this.

[Udderdude]

Yes... the most attractive characteristic of fighting games is the direct pitting of your own brain against another brain. Shmups don't really do this.

Sure they do, you're pitting your brain versus the game designer's brain. >_>

[captpain]

Yes... the most attractive characteristic of fighting games is the direct pitting of your own brain against another brain. Shmups don't really do this.

Sure they do, you're pitting your brain versus the game designer's brain. >_>

That brain has a remarkable ability to perform the exact same series of actions exactly the same way each time... almost as if... it's a computer program or something

[gray117]

Why? .... fashion/movement of consumers, relative capability, and thus critical interests.

What a shmup is and why it is niche are on the surface 2 very different issues. However, they are linked.

Irrevocably, as a means of play shmups bourne from a technological ability ignited an interest that was both new, current and evolving.

Today the shmup genre is is not new, it is evolving less [partly restricted by its own definitions - be that strengths or weaknesses] and is certainly not of current concern - being a relatively old genre and of limited means of immersion.

As a niche there is nothing wrong in this as long as its community and exposure remains healthy [albeit relatively small].

Ultimately this is relatively natural, and, barring any extreme changes in fashion or genre classification, this is also relatively inevitable.

The reason for this is because shmups are not the most immediately immersive means of enquiry, or interaction, nor perspective. Furthermore typically [not always], their strengths rely on concise rather, than diverse management. Thus the liklihood of the genre either capturing the popular critical interest is extremely remote.

Nor is the genre likely to ever re-package a current concern/interest in an absolutely critical manner - although this is an area where the genre could promote itself beyond a niche genre at some point I would reckon on this being far more unlikely before such time as that the shmup consumers and genres are divided further in the consumer consciousness [which lets face it is only starting to remember that this genre even exists].

[gs68]

I don't play fighters. In a fighter, I put myself up against another opponent directly, so I feel like shit if I lose.

Whereas in a shmup, I'm not being directly compared, so I can focus on improving myself rather than trying to outsmart so-and-so player.

[gray117]

I don't play fighters. In a fighter, I put myself up against another opponent directly, so I feel like shit if I lose.

Whereas in a shmup, I'm not being directly compared, so I can focus on improving myself rather than trying to outsmart so-and-so player.

But if the ai was better, fighters would equal shmups for you?

I think there's more to the format and perspective of a shmup that engenders it your compulsion to play; yet it is also that level of accessibility which confines the genre.

[Udderdude]

Yes... the most attractive characteristic of fighting games is the direct pitting of your own brain against another brain. Shmups don't really do this.

Sure they do, you're pitting your brain versus the game designer's brain. >_>

That brain has a remarkable ability to perform the exact same series of actions exactly the same way each time... almost as if... it's a computer program or something

Well, you could make shmup opponents (ships, etc.) be unpredictable and hard to fight, but it would pretty much destroy playing the game for score, so it's not a very good tradeoff

[monkeyman]

How 'bout a direct comparison: Shmups(DDP, Gradius etc.) Vs. Fighting Games(SF, Tekken etc.)

I think we all agree that fighting games are much more popular than Shmups and most of us who play both would agree that they share many of the same attributes: they're both short(in terms of "finishing" the game), both require alot of technical/strategic skill(are hard to master) and both are competetive.

So why are Fighting Games so much more popular(and more positive critically) than Shmups?

There's two things that fighting games have that give them the edge when it comes to mainstream acceptance.

1. One on one competitive play (this is not the same as trying to beat other people on leaderboards)
2. Special moves and combos

I would also add that the most popular franchises out there (ie tekken and soulcalibur as far as my unscientific look into friend's preferences) are pretty easy to get into my just mashing the attack buttons. You may not know how you did all those moves but there's an instant gratification in seeing all those flashy moves. I think the more technical games like street fighter are not as popular outside the hardcore following (yes everyone's heard of it but I don't know anyone early 20s or younger who was really interestyed in SF4). - Again, this is just what i have observed, I haven't checked sales figures for any of these games or anything so I may be wrong.

I have alot of ideas on this but I will say that aside from the artistic differences the only gameplay difference which I've always thought would work for shmups is a round based system. In fighting games you have to win 2/3 rounds to proceed to the next match. I've always advocated that shmups should go to a "round based system" where you have 2 or 3 tries(each try starts the level from scratch) to beat a level before proceeding to the next level and then on the next level you restart with zero powerups(ala a fighting game where you restart each round from scratch). This alone would remove the credit feeding excuse we get from alot of reviews and I think people would be more fullfilled when "beating" a shmup.

Puzzle/Rythm games have the same characteristic in not having credit feeding and using a "round based" system where you either beat the level or you have to start over and those are also more popular than shmups.

Interesting idea

EDIT - Out of interest, is that 1 v 1 fighter / shmup highbrid game more popular as a result of the fusion? Forgot the name and never played it myself but I'm sure you know the one I'm on about.

[orange]

hahaha no one plays senko no ronde even though it owns

[EPS21]

hahaha no one plays senko no ronde even though it owns

DUO has been in the arcadia top10 for a while. But as far as the rest of the world outside Japan goes, that's probably true.

[Ed Oscuro]

They could always go the Baroque route and have players clear the main game multiple times, opening up more story details and extra levels as they go along.

Taking away the core of scoring strategy (one strategy, one play) and approachability (oh no the game is too hard to clear for the bad player who wants the extra level -> make it easier, GreAT!1) has a good potential for making things worse. A better idea would be offering a "full game" mode and also level segment "chapters" but you're going to get slammed at review time for not having much content (omg you can only fly in two directions! and the screen stops you!111) and it would be a better investment just to make a Flash game with no expectations or a full-blown emotional console movie experience with third person view chibfied spaceship girls.

There's certainly a lot that could be done, theoretically, but trying to shoehorn in game design elements from other genres that don't fit the scoring-centric mentality and gameplay format is not going to impress the fanbase that exists right now, and I don't see any sign that it's going to grab the console era crowd either (too flat, not inventive enough, reviewers don't think this is the Citizen Kane of vidya games - lots of deep focus but no Dutch angles or dolly zooms, sobbing & teeth-gnashing ensue).

Granted, shooter games are a wider genre than just the usual arcade examples, and the "if you build it..." adage applies, but at that point you realize we are talking about the usual console shooter which I dare say doesn't have the longevity of arcade releases (not for good players, seeing how quick console shooters get upended around here, and not for bad players like me, who drift off to other things before bothering to complete the game). That's not a bad thing but it takes a certain mindset to enjoy those. But hey, let's go enjoy Sigma Star Saga!!1