5th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time! - Discussion thread

cigsthecat · Post by **cigsthecat** » Wed Mar 14, 2007 5:01 am

j^aws wrote:Can I ask whether a mouse or trackball used to target a projectile is permitted in a shmup?

Edit:

...with a cross-hair?

I don't think you should be voting.

j^aws · Post by **j^aws** » Wed Mar 14, 2007 8:50 am

cigsthecat wrote:
j^aws wrote:Can I ask whether a mouse or trackball used to target a projectile is permitted in a shmup?

Edit:

...with a cross-hair?
I don't think you should be voting.

Too late, I voted Taco Gaiden DX!

Anyway, the reason I mention this is because of Missile Command. It fulfils all the criteria I discussed earlier but, IMO, games of this type are closer to 'light-gun' games than a shmup like Galaga...

E.g. If Missile Command was ported to the Wii, the trackball control could be replaced by the Wii-mote, which basically behaves similarly to a light gun...and those are automatic disqualifiers like 1st persion 3D view, AFAIK...

Not that I want to vote for Missile Command, but there are other games that behave like it, that did cross my mind, e.g. SDI from Sega... but I'm not voting for it, so it's not a concern to me... just something to discuss perhaps...

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Wed Mar 14, 2007 8:39 pm

I wish I could put lightgun games on my list.

louisg · Post by **louisg** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 7:35 am

I'm voting for Super Skweek.

(ramdom?)

jp · Post by jp » Fri Mar 16, 2007 8:06 am

Is Guitar Hero 2 a shmup?

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 8:33 pm

jp · Post by jp » Sat Mar 17, 2007 4:25 am

Rob wrote:Yes.

Awesome! I need to go change my score table then.

dai jou bu · Post by **dai jou bu** » Tue Mar 20, 2007 8:59 am

Is Senko no Ronde a shmup? I personally believe it is, but I don't know if you guys think so.

j^aws · Post by **j^aws** » Tue Mar 20, 2007 11:04 am

dai jou bu wrote:Is Senko no Ronde a shmup? I personally believe it is, but I don't know if you guys think so.

I haven't played the game yet but looking at the video only, I can descirbe it in the 'format' discussed ealrlier in the thread, i.e;

Camera=? ; Gameworld=? ; Character=?

...If you understood any of that discussion, then perhaps you could help by filling in the above (at least for a bit of fun)?... And maybe Turrican, because AFAIK, he's the only one I know that followed it!

Thunder Force · Post by **Thunder Force** » Tue Mar 20, 2007 2:02 pm

dai jou bu wrote:Is Senko no Ronde a shmup? I personally believe it is, but I don't know if you guys think so.

That is not eligible for voting in the Shmups Poll, even though we granted it a special exception to allow it to be discussed as on-topic on Shmups Chat.

Turrican · Post by **Turrican** » Tue Mar 20, 2007 3:01 pm

j^aws wrote:...If you understood any of that discussion, then perhaps you could help by filling in the above (at least for a bit of fun)?... And maybe Turrican, because AFAIK, he's the only one I know that followed it!

Yeah, I followed the discussion, but alas I have absolutely no experience of Senko (yeah, I didn't even bother to check a video of it -sheme!), so I trust Thunder Force on this.

j^aws · Post by **j^aws** » Tue Mar 20, 2007 4:25 pm

Turrican wrote:
j^aws wrote:...If you understood any of that discussion, then perhaps you could help by filling in the above (at least for a bit of fun)?... And maybe Turrican, because AFAIK, he's the only one I know that followed it!
Yeah, I followed the discussion, but alas I have absolutely no experience of Senko (yeah, I didn't even bother to check a video of it -sheme!), so I trust Thunder Force on this.

I was going for a 3-2-3 from the video but I can't really comment without playing it myself...

dai jou bu · Post by **dai jou bu** » Tue Mar 20, 2007 9:46 pm

I'm going to argue with Thunderforce and say that it's a shmup.

But before I can even argue about that, I need to find out what you guys mean in terms of classifying this game. checked earlier posts in the thread and I still don't see what you mean by the 3-2-3 thing. =/

Edit: nevermind, found it. Okay, it's 2.5 (or 3)-2-2 (since it does have 2D art =/) or 3. That video should explain it.

j^aws · Post by **j^aws** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 9:50 am

^^ Does the game always involve 2 characters on screen, i.e. yourself and an opponent?

Kaiser · Post by **Kaiser** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 9:59 am

dai jou bu wrote:I'm going to argue with Thunderforce and say that it's a shmup.

But before I can even argue about that, I need to find out what you guys mean in terms of classifying this game. checked earlier posts in the thread and I still don't see what you mean by the 3-2-3 thing. =/

Edit: nevermind, found it. Okay, it's 2.5 (or 3)-2-2 (since it does have 2D art =/) or 3. That video should explain it.

If change air blade is counted as shmup then why not senko no ronde?

dai jou bu · Post by **dai jou bu** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 9:28 pm

Yeah, I've been wondering the same thing, and I have a few points to back up why it should be anyway.

Edit: and I didn't even know a game like Change Air Blade existed. -_-

j^aws wrote:^^ Does the game always involve 2 characters on screen, i.e. yourself and an opponent?

Yes. Think of every round like a boss rush of sorts.

Thunder Force · Post by **Thunder Force** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 5:33 am

There is enough of a similarity between Senko and games like Psychic Force 2 to make Senko's inclusion in a Top Shmups List debatable. It seems to be a close call, since we started allowing arena shmups.

EOJ · Post by **EOJ** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 6:11 am

Senko is not a shmup. Shmups aren't 1 on 1 fighting games. Senko is also based on fighting game move commands (BBF A+B, etc).

Thunder Force · Post by **Thunder Force** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 6:18 am

Another good point.

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 7:41 am

TWE wrote:Senko is not a shmup. Shmups aren't 1 on 1 fighting games. Senko is also based on fighting game move commands (BBF A+B, etc).

Poor Spacewar.

dai jou bu · Post by **dai jou bu** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 8:01 am

TWE wrote:Senko is not a shmup. Shmups aren't 1 on 1 fighting games.

Explain to me Twinkle Star Sprites then. Also explain to me what a boss fight is while we're at it, since bosses can be any size.

TWE wrote: Senko is also based on fighting game move commands (BBF A+B, etc).

If you captured minibosses in G.Darius you could input special move directions in order to make your captured enemy do special attacks. Also in Air Rade you can recharge your punch meter faster (which is essential in Air Rade Air) by inputting directional commands first before punching something.

Rob wrote: Poor Spacewar.

And Star Control.

EOJ · Post by **EOJ** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 8:08 am

dai jou bu wrote:
TWE wrote: Senko is also based on fighting game move commands (BBF A+B, etc).
If you captured minibosses in G.Darius you could input special move directions in order to make your captured enemy do special attacks. Also in Air Rade you can recharge your punch meter faster (which is essential in Air Rade Air) by inputting directional commands first before punching something.

Yeah you could do that in Cotton 2 as well. Senko is a 1 on 1 fighting game though. Not fundamentally different from games like Psychic Force, Powerstone, Virtual On, etc. It plays more like Street Fighter 2 than Under Defeat. It's not a shmup. The characters shooting bullets at each other doesn't make it a shmup.

j^aws · Post by **j^aws** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 12:22 pm

People can have 'strong' and 'weak' opinions on subjective matters...

If Senko is on the 'fence' and Psychic Force 2 and Space Wars are on either side of this 'fence'... and if you've played all three for a significant amount of time, then how would you answer the following;

Senko is more like...

A) Space Wars

B) Psychic Force 2

C) Taco Gaiden DX

Turrican · Post by **Turrican** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 4:48 pm

TWE wrote:[Senko] It's not a shmup. The characters shooting bullets at each other doesn't make it a shmup.

Agree. And I don't think we ever allowed Spacewar and Star Control in the genre.

dai jou bu wrote:Explain to me Twinkle Star Sprites then. Also explain to me what a boss fight is while we're at it, since bosses can be any size.

Can't comment on TSS, but boss fights are a different matter - you still play versus the computer, only against a bigger enemy.

j^aws · Post by **j^aws** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 4:51 pm

^^ How is Space Wars not an Arena shmup?

Turrican · Post by **Turrican** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 4:54 pm

j^aws wrote:^^ How is Space Wars not an Arena shmup?

It is an arena shooter, and that's just why - that's the most debatable, borderline category. Unless I'm mistaken, arena shooters aren't allowed to be voted for: Smash TV, Asteroids and the likes.

Personally, I even restrain myself to voting Kikikaikai.

Asteroids -> Robotron -> Smash TV -> Commando -> Mercs -> Chaos Engine -> Contra overhead stages. Do you see why they aren't allowed in?

Robotron might have been voted but I'm not sure.

j^aws · Post by **j^aws** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 5:01 pm

Turrican wrote:
...Unless I'm mistaken, arena shooters aren't allowed to be voted for: Smash TV, Asteroids and the likes.

Robotron might have been voted but I'm not sure.

I don't understand the above. Please clarify?

Robotron 2084 is an explicit example from Zach for an Arena shmup. So is Smash TV.

Turrican · Post by **Turrican** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 5:05 pm

j^aws wrote:
Turrican wrote:
...Unless I'm mistaken, arena shooters aren't allowed to be voted for: Smash TV, Asteroids and the likes.

Robotron might have been voted but I'm not sure.
I don't understand the above. Please clarify?

Robotron 2084 is an explicit example from Zach for an Arena shmup. So is Smash TV.

Oops, I didn't notice the rule change this year. Well, fair enough I won't complain. Although I think allowing these particular games broaden the shmup subgenre too much (making it basically "shooter game")...

edit: my only explanation is that, given the fact that tube shmups weren't allowed last year, pleasing the vocal minority while not changing results a bit, the same logic was applied to arena shooters. Which, if you ask me, shouldn't be. But oh, well...

However, the player-versus-player mechanics should still be left out... imho.

j^aws · Post by **j^aws** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 5:10 pm

Turrican wrote: ...
Oops, I didn't notice the rule change this year. Well, fair enough I won't complain. Although I think allowing these particular games broaden the shmup subgenre too much (making it basically "shooter game")...

This is exactly why I did a "mind dump" earlier in the thread, so that I would have a reference defining the 'boundary conditions' of what's acceptable. Because my short term memory can be shite!... And there aren't any other 'technical' guidelines on the forum...

EDIT:

Turrican wrote:]
edit: my only explanation is that, given the fact that tube shmups weren't allowed last year, pleasing the vocal minority while not changing results a bit, the same logic was applied to arena shooters. Which, if you ask me, shouldn't be. But oh, well...

Well, I recall your concern about Tempest being not allowed when it was 'technically' still acceptable. This is really no different. The 'technicalities' aren't written in stone here, except what we've discussed in this thread...

Turrican wrote:]
However, the player-versus-player mechanics should still be left out... imho.

Well, TSS has already been accepted before the new arena rule...

Turrican · Post by **Turrican** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 5:19 pm

@Zach:

Does these new rules mean I can vote for Chaos Engine?

and then, if I can, I will be in real trouble trying to say "no" next time that someone shows up and ask to vote for Contra...

It's just my two cents but... keep the arena shooters out.