OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

[cfx]

FBX: Only reason I mentioned contrast is the apparently higher contrast would also accentuate the ringing.

Blair, is your Saturn a model 1 or model 2? I ask that because at least the ones I've dealt with model 2s have a hotter output and thus would need a lower brightness than a model 1 or most other consoles probably.

Yes, all of my Sega Saturn's are model 2 variants. One of them only likes outputting with C-sync and the others prefer sync on Luma (not sure why Saturns are like that).

The video output definitely benefited from a brightness adjustment in DVDO's picture settings menu.

(curious thing I've noted is that PlayStation 2's seem to output a brighter signal when playing PlayStation 1 games so I usually adjust brightness by -5 points when playing those on my Edge Green setup).

I don't have a handle on DE/EE settings or the other picture controls yet so I may use your numbers as a place to start to see what things look like.

Generally, if you're talking about PlayStation 2 480i games, most of them don't need sharpness adjustments. (Especially if you're using game mode 2) although some games do apply weird blur filters (often a flicker filter) so I usually take it on a by game by game basis. For instance, original Virtua fighter 4 on PS2 has an incredibly sharp video output, but Virtua fighter 4 evolution is rather blurry (mostly due to a bad implementation of anti-aliasing).

Or were you interested in picture adjustments for other resolutions?

I'm not using game mode. This was originally mainly to be used with RPGs where lag wouldn't be an issue and I wanted best deinterlacing quality. I've since experimented with two Ratchet & Clank games and Gradius V, and I guess I just don't notice lag because I wasn't bothered by anything and didn't feel any difference between with game mode on and off. Since R&C2 supports progressive scan, I tried it both with 480p direct to the monitor and 480i into the DVDO just to see how close, or not, the results were, and while 480p did look better, it wasn't hugely so, which made me happy with the DVDO's performance.

I doubt I want to add sharpness to anything, but if some combination of negative DE/EE could reduce the bad aliasing in certain games; the ones where it looks like white dots around the edges of objects in fast motion, that would be helpful. These aren't artifacts from the DVDO as this same thing exists with 480i direct to the monitor.

I guess my other source of confusion stems from since I am not scaling to a higher resolution, only deinterlacing 480i to 480p, are any of the settings not actually doing anything? Though I have noticed normally menu options that aren't functional are grayed out so I guess everything I can actually set is doing something, even if it is too subtle for me to notice.

We should probably be discussing this in another thread since it's no longer about the OSSC, sorry Marqs.

[ZellSF]

One more DVDO thing. I actually did a factory reset on mine because there was some other setting affecting sync I couldn't find. So if you got a used one, maybe factory reset before starting to configure it.

Also if anyone is still wondering, GBI ULL works fine with the OSSC.

Out of curiosity, what number of scanlines, H/V rate (and VSM, LO in the extra info page) does OSSC report? Those should give some insight why it doesn't work with all displays.

Extra info page? is that available via the menu?

261p, 15.58KHz, 59.72hz is what the main information screen says.
It also said 262p,15.58KHz and 59.49hz earlier for some weird reason.

There's some tearing, but I believe it's done by ULL and not the OSSC. I can't verify since the OSSC is the only way I get ULL working. Direct to my monitor, TV or XRGB-mini all result in sync issues. Even OSSC connected to my TV doesn't work, but OSSC>DVDO>TV or OSSC>XRGB-mini>TV work.

GBI is so much better than the official software. It's more playable connected to my plasma through a video processor than the official software was when connected directly to a CRT. Both in terms of latency (even when just running the LL version) and image quality.

[Blair]

I doubt I want to add sharpness to anything, but if some combination of negative DE/EE could reduce the bad aliasing in certain games; the ones where it looks like white dots around the edges of objects in fast motion, that would be helpful. These aren't artifacts from the DVDO as this same thing exists with 480i direct to the monitor.

(You have a VP50Pro?)

I can feel the difference in input lag (even on a CRT), so I always use game mode 2 whenever possible.

You probably could reduce the harshness of jaggies with negative edge enhancement, although it might affect the sharpness of some textures (then again that might not be such a bad thing with some games that have very sharp yet pixelated textures) perhaps something similar to the results of an FXAA filter?

(I wonder if it would be possible to implement something like FXAA directly on the OSSC via firmware upgrade)

Personaly I've never tried that, but you have me curious now (it would be interesting if I could improve the image of dead or alive hard-core or the Japanese version of Tekken tag tournament as those games are anti-aliasing nightmares on the PS2).

I guess my other source of confusion stems from since I am not scaling to a higher resolution, only deinterlacing 480i to 480p, are any of the settings not actually doing anything?

All the settings are still functioning when outputting 480p, it's still processing the image through its pipeline (regardless of the output resolution).

We should probably be discussing this in another thread since it's no longer about the OSSC, sorry Marqs.

I think it's okay because the OSSC is still being paired with other processors. Once more the units are out there it will probably be a good idea to create a separate thread (something like "OSSC+ Other processors")

I'm interested in seeing a video comparison of DVDO's game mode 1 versus the OSSC's onboard deinterlacing, from the few clips I saw it looked very similar, but from what Fudoh said they're not the same.

[cfx]

I doubt I want to add sharpness to anything, but if some combination of negative DE/EE could reduce the bad aliasing in certain games; the ones where it looks like white dots around the edges of objects in fast motion, that would be helpful. These aren't artifacts from the DVDO as this same thing exists with 480i direct to the monitor.

(You have a VP50Pro?)

I can feel the difference in input lag (even on a CRT), so I always use game mode 2 whenever possible.

You probably could reduce the harshness of jaggies with negative edge enhancement, although it might affect the sharpness of some textures (then again that might not be such a bad thing with some games that have very sharp yet pixelated textures) perhaps something similar to the results of an FXAA filter?

(I wonder if it would be possible to implement something like FXAA directly on the OSSC via firmware upgrade)

Personaly I've never tried that, but you have me curious now (it would be interesting if I could improve the image of dead or alive hard-core or the Japanese version of Tekken tag tournament as those games are anti-aliasing nightmares on the PS2).

I guess my other source of confusion stems from since I am not scaling to a higher resolution, only deinterlacing 480i to 480p, are any of the settings not actually doing anything?

All the settings are still functioning when outputting 480p, it's still processing the image through its pipeline (regardless of the output resolution).

We should probably be discussing this in another thread since it's no longer about the OSSC, sorry Marqs.

I think it's okay because the OSSC is still being paired with other processors. Once more the units are out there it will probably be a good idea to create a separate thread (something like "OSSC+ Other processors")

I'm interested in seeing a video comparison of DVDO's game mode 1 versus the OSSC's onboard deinterlacing, from the few clips I saw it looked very similar, but from what Fudoh said they're not the same.

I have a Duo. (Overkill for this purpose but I wanted it for other video-related uses as well, and the adjustable audio delay is going to be useful for me for video things since I use amps that aren't AVRs and hence I don't otherwise have those options.)

The Duo has only a single game mode. I think overall the Duo is most similar to the Edge Green? From what I could gather on AVSforum, they have the same processor, which is not the same as the one in the original Edge.

Funny you mention DOA2: Hardcore. I have it and it's one of the games that looks really bad with this issue; I am probably going to sell it because the Dreamcast version looks so much better and I don't really care about the extra things in this version. Sega Ages 2500 Dynamite Deka is even worse, which surprised me as I thought it was mainly only a thing with earlier games. If these games are 60fps that may be part of the problem since then the two fields aren't part of the same frame. Given fast motion is what looks worst that may be it. I'm oblivious to 30 vs 60 in games so I don't know.

Once the OSSC gets the 480i passthrough, perhaps others will be interested in these settings as well as that also will be a case where a DVDO is being used only for 480i deinterlacing, not 240p.

[Blair]

a duo? that sounds pretty awesome. (looking at the menus online it definitely seems like it's based on the Edge, and the Edge Green, which means it only has the equivalent of the VP50pro's "Game Mode 1", so yes, to get the highest visual quality with interlaced sources you'll need to keep that off, you should also turn off "cadence detection" and "mosquito noise reduction" unless you're watching DVDs)

which version of DOA2 HC do you have? I have the final Japanese version with the little star in the middle, as DOA 2 is one of my favorite games, it's worth having the "complete" version for me. (although now that I think about it, dead or alive 2 "ultimate" (old cement?) on the Xbox is probably the final version. as it has all of the outfits and story sequences from this version, minus the soulcaliber-esc martial arts demonstrations)

(I've also noticed this in the PS1 version of of DOA, kind of a jaggy mess compared to the Saturn version, that game is also 480i instead of 240p, sort of a rarity on the PS1)

30 FPS drives me crazy, less so on a CRT but still (gives me terrible eye and headaches)

currently I have my PS2 hooked up via HDMI into my Edge Green (going to use a PS One for future PlayStation 1 game processing), once I have an OSSC I'll probably do an RGB set-up as I've heard that it can also process 480p on its SCART input from the PS2, and the 480i pass through will be a fantastic boon. especially for those slower RPG's that don't need fast interlace processing.



speaking of all this, has anyone tested any of the various "gaming computers" on the OSSC? like the Atari ST, MSX 2 or PC-88/98?

I have a friend that's very interested in a processing solution for those types of systems.

[Blair]

I re-uploaded the latest comparison picture after adjusting the VP50's AR to match the Framemeister profile. It may take 10 minutes for the site to update the image though.
On the color/ contrast/ saturation/ front, I'm not so much worried about that as I am edge clarity and artifacts like ringing. Line triple mode definitely makes it a closer call with the VP50.

I ran a "simulated" SNES Line Triple test from my PC into the EG and this was the closest I could get to an FM, still nowhere near perfect but... eh?

Spoiler

if the line quadruple feature ever gets implemented, that would probably solve most ringing (I would hope).

[cfx]

a duo? that sounds pretty awesome. (looking at the menus online it definitely seems like it's based on the Edge, and the Edge Green, which means it only has the equivalent of the VP50pro's "Game Mode 1", so yes, to get the highest visual quality with interlaced sources you'll need to keep that off, you should also turn off "cadence detection" and "mosquito noise reduction" unless you're watching DVDs)

which version of DOA2 HC do you have? I have the final Japanese version with the little star in the middle, as DOA 2 is one of my favorite games, it's worth having the "complete" version for me. (although now that I think about it, dead or alive 2 "ultimate" (old cement?) on the Xbox is probably the final version. as it has all of the outfits and story sequences from this version, minus the soulcaliber-esc martial arts demonstrations)

(I've also noticed this in the PS1 version of of DOA, kind of a jaggy mess compared to the Saturn version, that game is also 480i instead of 240p, sort of a rarity on the PS1)

30 FPS drives me crazy, less so on a CRT but still (gives me terrible eye and headaches)

currently I have my PS2 hooked up via HDMI into my Edge Green (going to use a PS One for future PlayStation 1 game processing), once I have an OSSC I'll probably do an RGB set-up as I've heard that it can also process 480p on its SCART input from the PS2, and the 480i pass through will be a fantastic boon. especially for those slower RPG's that don't need fast interlace processing.



speaking of all this, has anyone tested any of the various "gaming computers" on the OSSC? like the Atari ST, MSX 2 or PC-88/98?

I have a friend that's very interested in a processing solution for those types of systems.

I didn't realize there was a different version of DOA2:HC but yeah, mine has the star in the logo too. I was looking at this game last night and watching those martial-arts demonstrations. Since they don't move that fast, they don't show much in the way of artifacts, but the gameplay bits in the opening do, and I set up the game in the watch mode for a bit and saw it there too; it still looks better than running it at 480i. I'll see if turning down EE helps it any. I never owned an Xbox but would've bought the Ultimate DOA2 release had I had one.

Mosquito noise is off, and I believe was the default. I don't have an option called cadence detection, but there is a "deinterlacing mode" (may not be called quite that either, my memory sucks) with auto/film/video settings which I assume is the same thing. I set it to "video" which I assume would be best here.

I was going to look and see if the google doc compatibility chart for the OSSC showed any of those computers, but I don't know where that doc is. The link for it is buried somewhere in this thread, but it's not referenced in the first post, nor anywhere I could find on Bucko's forum. He did some tests with Amiga and C64 in his review.

Fudoh's OSSC review says it does what you want in terms of PS2 RGB via SCART with both 480i and 480p.

Your simulated line-triple test looks pretty good and something about what I'd expect from FBX's test with lower contrast. Like Fudoh's DVDO reviews state, I think that if you were using scanlines on that, it wouldn't be noticably much different than the XRGB results in that case, depending on the monitor a bit too.

[Blair]

I didn't realize there was a different version of DOA2:HC but yeah, mine has the star in the logo too. I was looking at this game last night and watching those martial-arts demonstrations. Since they don't move that fast, they don't show much in the way of artifacts, but the gameplay bits in the opening do, and I set up the game in the watch mode for a bit and saw it there too; it still looks better than running it at 480i. I'll see if turning down EE helps it any.

For some games with really bad anti-aliasing issues (mostly on PS2 or Dreamcast) I've actually found that using a scanline generator can help mitigate most of those really eye irritating artifacts, a little H-blur with some scanlines make a very nice lo-res look (especially with DoA H*C and TT-JP) (Im also looking forward to testing the OSSC's 480i scanline functions for this particular reason).

Unfortunately The way the PlayStation 2 outputs its interlaced signal is very inconsistent, I'm not sure how the OSSC handles it, but many video processors and televisions have trouble properly deinterlacing Ps2 (even the most sophisticated PS2 emulator has a very difficult time with it) the later model DVDO's are the best processors I've found (so far) for dealing with the Ps2 and its "weirdness"

Mosquito noise is off, and I believe was the default. I don't have an option called cadence detection, but there is a "deinterlacing mode" (may not be called quite that either, my memory sucks) with auto/film/video settings which I assume is the same thing. I set it to "video" which I assume would be best here.

Yes "video" is the perfect setting for deinterlaced mode

if you were using scanlines on that, it wouldn't be noticably much different than the XRGB results in that case, depending on the monitor a bit

Scanlines are my preferred display setting, but I believe many users (like FBX and Fudoh) prefer to play without them. Another thing I'm hoping for in the development of OSSC (especially if it gets a line quadruple mode) is a 1:1 scanline pattern similar to its 480p mode.

[cfx]

I didn't realize there was a different version of DOA2:HC but yeah, mine has the star in the logo too. I was looking at this game last night and watching those martial-arts demonstrations. Since they don't move that fast, they don't show much in the way of artifacts, but the gameplay bits in the opening do, and I set up the game in the watch mode for a bit and saw it there too; it still looks better than running it at 480i. I'll see if turning down EE helps it any.

For some games with really bad anti-aliasing issues (mostly on PS2 or Dreamcast) I've actually found that using a scanline generator can help mitigate most of those really eye irritating artifacts, a little H-blur with some scanlines make a very nice lo-res look (especially with DoA H*C and TT-JP) (Im also looking forward to testing the OSSC's 480i scanline functions for this particular reason).

Unfortunately The way the PlayStation 2 outputs its interlaced signal is very inconsistent, I'm not sure how the OSSC handles it, but many video processors and televisions have trouble properly deinterlacing Ps2 (even the most sophisticated PS2 emulator has a very difficult time with it) the later model DVDO's are the best processors I've found (so far) for dealing with the Ps2 and its "weirdness"

Ooh, I hadn't thought about basically turning "real" 480i games into 240p via doubling and then adding scanlines; that might fix PS2 Dynamite Deka.

I'm not really up on details of the PS2 architecture or how it was programmed, but from bits of reading I gather there were several different ways the output was programmed, which would certainly explain the variable output quality and also why different games seem to get better or not results via a video processor. I know back at the time I was always annoyed that PS2 didn't match Dreamcast's output quality. Not referring to number of polygons or the like, but just the image quality and fact nearly every DC game supported VGA while almost no PS2 game supported 480p.

Mosquito noise is off, and I believe was the default. I don't have an option called cadence detection, but there is a "deinterlacing mode" (may not be called quite that either, my memory sucks) with auto/film/video settings which I assume is the same thing. I set it to "video" which I assume would be best here.

Yes "video" is the perfect setting for deinterlaced mode

Ok, great, thought that was it. I also made sure that PReP is off.

if you were using scanlines on that, it wouldn't be noticably much different than the XRGB results in that case, depending on the monitor a bit

Scanlines are my preferred display setting, but I believe many users (like FBX and Fudoh) prefer to play without them. Another thing I'm hoping for in the development of OSSC (especially if it gets a line quadruple mode) is a 1:1 scanline pattern similar to its 480p mode.

Right, and for doing it without scanlines and going for that sharp pixel emulator-style look, I would agree that the XRGB output is better, especially on a flat panel where the ringing is going to be fairly visible. And I think there's something to be said for not using scanlines for these comparisons as well since they do obscure some of the differences.

[Blair]

I wonder if the PReP setting can be used to alter the OSSC's de-interlaced picture quality...

[marqs]

One more DVDO thing. I actually did a factory reset on mine because there was some other setting affecting sync I couldn't find. So if you got a used one, maybe factory reset before starting to configure it.

Also if anyone is still wondering, GBI ULL works fine with the OSSC.

Out of curiosity, what number of scanlines, H/V rate (and VSM, LO in the extra info page) does OSSC report? Those should give some insight why it doesn't work with all displays.

Extra info page? is that available via the menu?

261p, 15.58KHz, 59.72hz is what the main information screen says.
It also said 262p,15.58KHz and 59.49hz earlier for some weird reason.

There's some tearing, but I believe it's done by ULL and not the OSSC. I can't verify since the OSSC is the only way I get ULL working. Direct to my monitor, TV or XRGB-mini all result in sync issues. Even OSSC connected to my TV doesn't work, but OSSC>DVDO>TV or OSSC>XRGB-mini>TV work.

GBI is so much better than the official software. It's more playable connected to my plasma through a video processor than the official software was when connected directly to a CRT. Both in terms of latency (even when just running the LL version) and image quality.

Info page is accessed by pressing 'info'-button on the remote. "261p" makes sense after doing the math: 13.5MHz clk / (866 dots * 261 lines) = 59.7276Hz refresh rate matching the one given in GBI ULL specs. 522 lines at output (w linedouble) however, is outside of tolerance (e.g. 525+-1) of many TVs and therefore not as compatible as standard 240p output of Cube.

Line count displayed on the screen is read from TVP7002 register, and sometimes it's off by one line. Infopage shows the correct output count as LO, so source line count can be verified from it.

I think it's okay because the OSSC is still being paired with other processors. Once more the units are out there it will probably be a good idea to create a separate thread (something like "OSSC+ Other processors")

Maybe even a processor-specific thread like "OSSC+ VP50" to make it more accessible and avoid huge threads. Feel free to create one on VGP forums.

[BuckoA51]

Maybe even a processor-specific thread like "OSSC+ VP50" to make it more accessible and avoid huge threads. Feel free to create one on VGP forums.

Already done a few weeks ago https://www.videogameperfection.com/for ... p3050edge/

[telemetry]

I wonder if the PReP setting can be used to alter the OSSC's de-interlaced picture quality...

Check Joelepain's thread using the OSSC with his VP50pro.

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... 6#p1195666

[marqs]

Had some time today to play around with pixel repetition feature of HDMI TX chip. It is required for interlace passthrough, but it can be also used for multiplying horizontal resultion to 2x or 4x without consuming any FPGA resources. That provided an easy way to convert linedoubled 480p coming from FPGA (640x960 or 720x960 depending on sampling mode) to more compatible 1280x960/1440x960 mode at output. Everything seemed to work well based on quick testing so I'll try include these in the fw asap.

Pixel repetition also makes line4x and line5x features more realistic as FPGA does not need to generate so high pixel clock, so those shouldn't be now too far either.

[BuckoA51]

Amazing, so we can expect this and interlace passthrough soon? Awesome!

[pyrotek85]

Neat, I'm really anxious to get my hands on one of these as soon as possible.

[RocketBelt]

Great news! Just need to be able to buy one now! (am already on waiting list)

[BazookaBen]

Heck yeah man. This is going to be the go-to device for retro-gaming setups for years to come.

[NormalFish]

Great to hear. Looking forward to this device being rounded out with the upcoming updates

[Thomago]

This makes me sooooo happy

[Blair]

Had some time today to play around with pixel repetition feature of HDMI TX chip.

amazing, I was just about to ask you about that (and the pixel repetition feature of the chip) as I had remember reading about it in earlier posts of the thread.

that sounds very promising, thanks for being so active with this project!

[bobrocks95]

Does that increase visual quality to comparable with linetriple mode, or does it just improve compatibility with particularly picky displays? I guess as an example, if my Sony TV accepts 1280x960 and looks nice, should I expect similar results?

[Xyga]

Fantastic news.

[paulb_nl]

Does that increase visual quality to comparable with linetriple mode, or does it just improve compatibility with particularly picky displays? I guess as an example, if my Sony TV accepts 1280x960 and looks nice, should I expect similar results?

I assume you are talking about linedouble 480p to 960p. The compatibility will be same or worse as linetriple because there are too many blanking lines. Your Sony TV will most likely not accept it.

[BazookaBen]

Does that increase visual quality to comparable with linetriple mode

Not sure about that, but linedoubling 480p to 960p would get rid of scanlines on PC CRT's that you get at 480p and other low-resolutions. Which is a good thing, because Super Mario Galaxy doesn't need 480 black lines running across it.

[ZellSF]

So 4x/5x is a definite yes for next fw version?

Can't wait.

Not so excited for 480p linedouble. Unsure if linedouble will look all that good on the 3D graphics that 480p games usually are on a modern flat screen. Will probably look fantastic for a few select 2D 480p titles though.

[RGB32E]

Pixel repetition also makes line4x and line5x features more realistic as FPGA does not need to generate so high pixel clock, so those shouldn't be now too far either.

Excellent news! If you can implement a 1080p line5x feature with vertical position control, I think I will no longer have a use for my XRGB-mini!

[marqs]

Amazing, so we can expect this and interlace passthrough soon? Awesome!

So 4x/5x is a definite yes for next fw version?

480p linedouble and interlace passthrough will be done for next fw as listed on the wiki. Line 4x/5x still has to be tested/implemented so it's a bit further on the line.

I assume you are talking about linedouble 480p to 960p. The compatibility will be same or worse as linetriple because there are too many blanking lines. Your Sony TV will most likely not accept it.

There's no CEA mode for 1440/1280x960 so not that many TVs are expected to support it. However, if linetriple is supported I'd say there's a good chance those will be supported also. Below are the modelines for testing:

Code: Select all

ModeLine "1280x960_60.00" 100.80 1280 1312 1504 1600 960 980 984 1050 -hsync -vsync
ModeLine "1440x960_59.94" 108.00 1440 1472 1596 1716 960 978 990 1050 -hsync -vsync

[bobrocks95]

Assuming I calculated the front porch and whatnot correctly, no go on a 2014 Sony as expected. Oh well.

[Thamiel]

Quick question. Is there much of an advantage pairing an OSSC with a VP50 over a HD+? There's a HD+ going locally fairly cheaply, though I don't kind paying more for a VP50 if there's some significant improvements.

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