Fudoh's ode to old display technology

[Taiyaki]

What exactly do you mean by upscan converter? Is that like an upscaler?

[ryu]

What exactly do you mean by upscan converter? Is that like an upscaler?

It's a module for the Sony PGM-200R2 that was sold separately. It's a downscaler and deinterlacer that takes non 31hz signals to make the monitor more flexible.

[andy251203]

I'm considering swapping tubes between the PGM and my PVM-2950Q. The PVM gets a lot of regular use, and the tube is showing its age. I've been hunting for a replacement tube for a while. Now that I have a brand new tube in my hands, it's tempting to use it for the PVM. The PGM would get the old tube so it would still work, it just wouldn't be as pretty. I recently replaced EVERY FREAKING CAPACITOR on the PVM with high quality Nichicon 105 degree capacitors, which are better than the original 85 degree caps. The chassis should last another 10+ years.

On the other hand, I just don't see myself using the PGM a lot since it's so limited with its video capability. The only thing I can think of using it for (without a scan converter) would be Dreamcast or arcade boards that do VGA. Gamecube, PS2 and Xbox are out because they don't do 480p 100% of the time and getting these consoles to do VGA is cumbersome. 360 would work, but its not ideal in 480p. Bottom line, if I have to add a scan converter to make this monitor useful, I'd rather just play games on the PVM.

It's a shame that Sony didn't make a multiformat 29" PVM that would at least do 480i/480p. I guess the 600 line tube would not be considered high enough resolution to do 720p/1080i.

Thoughts?

[BubbaMc]

Guys I've got a bit of a problem here and hope one of you can help.

Signal chain: Xbox 360/Dreamcast VGA RGBHV -> Extron RGB 203Rxi RGBS -> BVM-A20F1U.

At 640x480 the sync is terrible:




At higher resolutions however there's no problems:



Any ideas what could be causing this?

I bought the Extron RGB for RGBHV to RGBS sync processing (I tried using a BNC T adapter which resulted in a wavy picture like that shown above).

[BubbaMc]

Apologies for the huge pics.

[niall]

Tried VCR mode on? That sorted out similar sync warping at the top of my BVMs

[BubbaMc]

I don't believe mine has a VCR mode.

Manual doesn't mention it: http://www.finepoint.co.uk/wp-content/u ... /506-M.pdf

[Fudoh]

You can try RGsB from the interface to the monitor instead of RGBs. For SoG you have to flip a dipswitch on the interface. Also try the dip for serration impulse removal.

[BubbaMc]

Also try the dip for serration impulse removal.

That was it!

Cheers mate. All good now.

[demianariel]

Hello everyone.
I'm about to buy a PVM Monitor. Specifically the PVM-1440QM. witch have a euro SCART socket.
i will be using this Monitor with a Genesis, Snes, Saturn, n64 and ps1.

There is not much information online regarding this model. but for what i've read it laks the "super fine pitch" that mosts trinitrons have. This model has 300 lines of resolution.

Anyone knows if that is a bad thing? can the picture quality of this "low end" PVM be lower that a conventional CRT TV?

[niall]

Also try the dip for serration impulse removal.

That was it!

Cheers mate. All good now.

Sweet that works for me too on the Extron, Cheers fudoh!

PVM-1440QM. witch have a euro SCART socket.
Anyone knows if that is a bad thing? can the picture quality of this "low end" PVM be lower that a conventional CRT TV?

I've got a 1450QM and the image is better than my 29" Sony, though not by a huge margin. If that's the Qld one on eBay make him an offer, been sitting on $50 for quite a while now and no-one is biting.

[Ed Oscuro]

Hello everyone.
I'm about to buy a PVM Monitor. Specifically the PVM-1440QM. witch have a euro SCART socket.
i will be using this Monitor with a Genesis, Snes, Saturn, n64 and ps1.

There is not much information online regarding this model. but for what i've read it laks the "super fine pitch" that mosts trinitrons have. This model has 300 lines of resolution.

Anyone knows if that is a bad thing? can the picture quality of this "low end" PVM be lower that a conventional CRT TV?

You got your answer here, I believe, from lostinblue: link

But also check this image comparison (note however that even this 14" has a 600 TVL spec, far beyond what you're considering):
http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... 24#p863024

TVL directly measures definition at the left and right edge of pixels - it's a measure of how many black and white vertical stripes can be laid across the screen before they start to blur together. But also one can see that the larger set also has a more pronounced scanline. It's up to you to decide how much definition you need, and how much is "good enough."

What lostinblue says is right. 300 TVL is not great, but it should just about resolve the resolution of low-res systems. Pixel edges might sometimes (or mostly) be a bit blurry on their left and right sides.

Personally I'd forget about the 14" models entirely, and go to a monitor that's at least 17". 20" should be doable in most cases, though the size / weight bump is notable, and probably the big stuff breaks a bit more readily in shipment.

Did you check to make sure that you're buying the best system most locally? Given how "meh" the aging 1440 seems to be, and given problems / costs with shipping, I'd spring for something newer at least. Unless you are really and truly in the middle of nowhere, I'd assume there ought to be something better closer by.

You also didn't share information about your location. Europe certainly has lots of TVs with SCART plugs in it, which will mean you don't need no PVM with a 300 TVL spec.

I've got a 1450QM and the image is better than my 29" Sony

Which 29" is that?

[Jono]

Alright I've got my BVM-20F1U working lovely, except for one little issue. If you stare at the screen, it looks like the picture goes up and then down by 1 mm. It's very small and very tiny but its doing it. Is this just because of its age? Have I got a bum monitor? There's also a humming to the left of the monitor...

[niall]

I've got a 1450QM and the image is better than my 29" Sony

Which 29" is that?

KV-2900 - I was referring to convergence and purity issues though, I need to have another tweak of its rings and add a half dozen magnets to see if I can get the last few issues sorted. Plus the usual pincushion geometry and linearity issues these consumer Trinitrons all seem to be limited by - I don't think I can get that side of things much better

I haven't paid much attention to the aperture differences between the two, but the PVM just seemed immediately crisp by comparison, without any tweaks. My eyes are probably more focused on convergence issues than resolution though.

Alright I've got my BVM-20F1U working lovely, except for one little issue. If you stare at the screen, it looks like the picture goes up and then down by 1 mm. It's very small and very tiny but its doing it. Is this just because of its age? Have I got a bum monitor? There's also a humming to the left of the monitor...

Feeding it an interlaced signal or 240p?

[Jono]

Feeding it an interlaced signal or 240p?

I've got it hooked up to a Neo Geo AES revision 3.5, which I think outputs 224 lines to 240p I believe...?

[Xan]

I think this flickering on 20" BVMs has been mentioned 2 or 3 times now on the last couple pages...

[andy251203]

Yes, I am convinced that the 240p jitter is a design flaw on the BVM-20F1* and BVM-14F** models. I now have 5 of these monitors and they all do this, even a 14F5U with less than 5000 hours on it. The D20 does not do have this issue, nor does the older BVM-1911.

Sony designed these monitors for broadcast studios. They were never intended to be used for 240p content. I recommend using interlaced sources only for the BVM-20F1*. For 240p, use a PVM or another model.

[Jono]

Yes, I am convinced that the 240p jitter is a design flaw on the BVM-20F1* and BVM-14F** models. I now have 5 of these monitors and they all do this, even a 14F5U with less than 5000 hours on it. The D20 does not do have this issue, nor does the older BVM-1911.

Sony designed these monitors for broadcast studios. They were never intended to be used for 240p content. I recommend using interlaced sources only for the BVM-20F1*. For 240p, use a PVM or another model.

Thanks for the update! I'm still going to enjoy the monitor. Someone mentioned it could be "pixel shifting", but that seems to be a newer feature in LCD/Plasmas, but would make sense in a broadcast setting... At least I don't have to worry!

[Fudoh]

Yes, I am convinced that the 240p jitter is a design flaw on the BVM-20F1*

I don't see it. I had four and still have two BVM-20F1 units. I did 1:1 comparions with LCDs. Signal got fed into the BVM, passthrough output into a Framemeister (or XRGB-3) and from there into a LCD. In terms of stability there was no difference between the CRTs and the LCD.

[Ed Oscuro]

My eyes are probably more focused on convergence issues than resolution though.

I'd expect convergence problems to be similar to low resolution bleed-across of pixels...the only thing here is that I thought convergence problems were most likely to change across the image.

[Tempest_2084]

Ok, maybe Fudoh can help me with an issue I'm having with my PVM-1910. You sort of addressed this before in another thread, but I guess I'm dense since I'm not 100% understanding.

This is the screen from my 1910. As you can see, there's a big gap on the top and bottom of the screen where there's no picture. However the picture itself is actually pretty square so this isn't a geometry issue as far as I can tell. Why is this 'half circle' gap there? I don't have the problem with my 1943MD (or if I do it's not nearly as bad). At first I thought it might be the bezel, but the more I look at it, it looks like the tube is just REALLY curved. Is this normal for this model? Does it just have a more pronounced curve on the tube because it's older (I think it's from 1985).

Also, if you look in the upper right you can see that it bows out a little. What adjust fixes this? I think it might be PIN AMP or the other PIN adjust (can't think of the name at the moment), but I'm not sure.

[niall]

My eyes are probably more focused on convergence issues than resolution though.

I'd expect convergence problems to be similar to low resolution bleed-across of pixels...the only thing here is that I thought convergence problems were most likely to change across the image.

Yep you optimise convergence for the centre of the screen, almost impossible to get the full screen converged unless you've got upper/middle/lower convergence control like on the BVMs. The best I could do (last attempt) was everything converged nicely except the top-left, and there's a purity issue in the top-right. Both can probably be improved with magnets, but it takes hours so I keep putting it off

However the picture itself is actually pretty square so this isn't a geometry issue as far as I can tell. Why is this 'half circle' gap there?
Also, if you look in the upper right you can see that it bows out a little. What adjust fixes this? I think it might be PIN AMP or the other PIN adjust (can't think of the name at the moment), but I'm not sure.

It's all geometry - tubes are not square, but you can tweak your geometry to give a square looking image from a single viewing position - sitting off to the side will show the image is rounded due to the tube's curve.

Try adjusting vertical height/size until there's a small amount of overscan (a line or two no longer visible - in the middle of each edge of the tube, not the corners like you have it now), then do the same with horizontal. Then adjust pincushion, bowing etc. with a test pattern grid until the grid itself is square from your primary viewing position, then do a final horizontal/vertical size/position adjustment to get the overscan to where you prefer it.

[Ed Oscuro]

What exactly do you mean by upscan converter? Is that like an upscaler?

It's a module for the Sony PGM-200R2 that was sold separately. It's a downscaler and deinterlacer that takes non 31hz signals to make the monitor more flexible.

Don't think any of this is accurate. I'm looking at the 1999 catalog, and the PGM-200R1U is listed having an optional scan converter (the BKM-202FN). I don't see how it's a downscaler, but rather it's a line doubler.

The PGM-200R2U has the scan converter built in. (It doesn't say this explicitly, but it does say it takes "line-doubled NTSC" and PAL signals. That suggests that's what the BKM-202FN for the PGM-200R1 is doing.)

PVM-1910.

Ahh, nostalgia. Not a fan of buying old tubes, but I like the old three-dots logo and the general case design (only silver is on the raised SONY logo). The "TRINITRON" text is bland, but I don't think the modern TRINITRON font is very good either.

[ryu]

What exactly do you mean by upscan converter? Is that like an upscaler?

It's a module for the Sony PGM-200R2 that was sold separately. It's a downscaler and deinterlacer that takes non 31hz signals to make the monitor more flexible.

Don't think any of this is accurate. I'm looking at the 1999 catalog, and the PGM-200R1U is listed having an optional scan converter (the BKM-202FN). I don't see how it's a downscaler, but rather it's a line doubler.

The PGM-200R2U has the scan converter built in. (It doesn't say this explicitly, but it does say it takes "line-doubled NTSC" and PAL signals. That suggests that's what the BKM-202FN for the PGM-200R1 is doing.)

I used to own a PGM-200R2 with the module. It took 480i and progressive signals up to at least 768p. It took 240p as well, I think, but am pretty sure it interpretes 240p as 480i.
Even if it was doing a proper linedoubling job, you'd be missing the scanlines.

[Ed Oscuro]

It line doubles 240p to 480p (640x480, specifically). The PGM-200R2U's resolution is "640x480 dots max" so I doubt that 768p is resolved very well.

Did you have the unit with the cube frame ("handles" on the back) or the more TV/computer monitor looking one? The first is the PGM-200R1, for which the module is optional. The second is the PGM-200R2U, which is the exact unit that was sold a week or so back.

[Tempest_2084]

Try adjusting vertical height/size until there's a small amount of overscan (a line or two no longer visible - in the middle of each edge of the tube, not the corners like you have it now), then do the same with horizontal. Then adjust pincushion, bowing etc. with a test pattern grid until the grid itself is square from your primary viewing position, then do a final horizontal/vertical size/position adjustment to get the overscan to where you prefer it.

I thought about adjusting the height to get rid of that gap. But if you look at the bezel if I increased the height any more I'd start to lose the image in the corners. If I 'fill out the screen' the corners would be behind the bezel. Unless this is caused by me not having the geometry adjusted correctly? The sides of the image aren't 100% straight (as you can see). I'm trying to correct that but I'm having trouble figuring out how.

I'll try maxing out the space in the center, then fixing the corners. Do you know what the adjusts are for this? The dials on the inside aren't labeled too well so I have cryptic stuff like PIN PHASE that I have to experiment with to see what it does.

BTW what's the 'best' system for adjusting overscan? I know each system is a little different, but I have a ton hooked up to this thing and I'd like to find one setting that works best for all the systems. I know it's impossible to set it so each system maxes out the available screen space, but I'd rather not have anything cut off. So far it looks like the Neo Geo MVS has the biggest image followed by systems like the PSX and DC. The Genesis seems to have the smallest image for some reason (lots of overscan area).

Ahh, nostalgia. Not a fan of buying old tubes, but I like the old three-dots logo and the general case design (only silver is on the raised SONY logo). The "TRINITRON" text is bland, but I don't think the modern TRINITRON font is very good either.

For $20, I was willing to take a chance. Turns out the tube is much sharper than my 1943MD that I was using. I didn't notice until I had them side by side last night.

[cools]

I adjust so the centre of each side of the picture touches the edge of the CRT. The corners vanish, no big deal.

[ryu]

It line doubles 240p to 480p (640x480, specifically). The PGM-200R2U's resolution is "640x480 dots max" so I doubt that 768p is resolved very well.

Did you have the unit with the cube frame ("handles" on the back) or the more TV/computer monitor looking one? The first is the PGM-200R1, for which the module is optional. The second is the PGM-200R2U, which is the exact unit that was sold a week or so back.

I'm pretty sure i had the R2. The one that was bought by a member from here recently definitely did not come with the scanconverter integrated, because the actual optional module has way more inputs available.
Mine had the frame. Pretty sure the one posted here doesn't because the frame is most likely optional and was sold separately.

[Tempest_2084]

I adjust so the centre of each side of the picture touches the edge of the CRT. The corners vanish, no big deal.

Yeah I'm starting to think that might be the way to go

[Xan]

Are PVMs starting from ca. 1995 (modern Trinitron logo) with OSD calibration settings considered as having a fully digital chassis, or do they have additional pots inside (for convergence perhaps)? I guess that was the first generation to feature a digital chassis, when did that arrive in the consumer market?