XRGB-3

[Fudoh]

A friend of mine had the same problem with a few japanese FW versions which worked fine on my XRGB-3. As far as I can tell it's a matter of resetting the XRGB-3 and setting the Scanline options in B0 before switching to B1....

[akumajo]

yes its a know old bug
just update to 2.12 + reset if you still have problem

[Phellan Wolf]

I was just wondering how much will be a good price for a new unit?? I have seen someone who sells them for around 400$ with free shipping but I don't know if it is a fair price.

[RGB32E]

I was just wondering how much will be a good price for a new unit?? I have seen someone who sells them for around 400$ with free shipping but I don't know if it is a fair price.

$330 from Amazon Japan (NEW). Ordering from Amazon JP only makes sense if you have someone in Japan to send it to you, as they don't ship internationally. I had a friend bring mine back from Japan. I realize not everyone knows someone who travels and/or lives in Japan. If you can get one NIB with shipping for $400, go for it!

Perhaps you can make that offer to Fudoh's buddy on ebay:
http://cgi.ebay.com/XRGB-3-Upscan-Conve ... 0420876694

[Kobiekun]

Hello all,

Thanks to this thread, Fudoh's website and the XRGB-3 wiki I finally took the plunge about a month ago and bought an XRGB-3. I'm really very happy with my purchase. I've hooked up my NES, SNES and Saturn to the unit all with great success. Most recently, I connected my PC Engine Duo to the XRGB-3 and encountered some issue that I could not "configure away". I've posted a video of the issue on YouTube, and I was hoping someone with more XRGB-3 tribal knowledge could take a look at it and make some suggestions (if any are to be had).

In summary:
The PC Engine Duo is connected to XRGB-3 via composite.
The is in XRGB-3 B1 mode / LPF:On AFC:Manual/4. I've tried the entire range of AFC settings and 4 seems to be optimal.

When the PC Engine is connected directly to the TV the issue does not occur.
When in B0 mode, the issue does not occur.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zl2mzxXjnNo

Thank you in advance for any help anyone can provide.

[Fudoh]

You probably won't be able to get rid of this using the available XRGB settings. It's likely the RGB booster which is to blame. If you plan on using this particular Duo with your XRGB more often, it would make sense to have another RGB amp circuit build into it.

[Kobiekun]

You probably won't be able to get rid of this using the available XRGB settings. It's likely the RGB booster which is to blame. If you plan on using this particular Duo with your XRGB more often, it would make sense to have another RGB amp circuit build into it.

Thank you very much for your response. I was already planning on getting this Duo modded, so I'll just add the amp to my list of things to get done.

[Animaitor]

Wow, $480... I've seen used XRGB-3 in Akiba for 27,000 yen and new for 30,000.

As for the English Firmware, I'm using the 2.12e and I guess the 2.12 (Japanese one) probably has the same bug unless someone can confirm the opposite. I was using a Japanese FW before that was working fine but can't remember which one.

[Konsolkongen]

Did you try resetting the unit? When powered off press and hold Menu + OK and press Power. I'm using 2.12e and i don't have that problem.

[Fudoh]

has the same bug unless someone can confirm the opposite

yes I can confirm this. It's just a matter of resetting the unit and setting the proper values in B0 mode.

[Konsolkongen]

Hey i hope it's alright if i ask in this thread. If you were gonna buy a new 40" LCD/LED TV for gaming use what would you go for? Low input delay for HDMI and VGA, response time and as little smear as possible would be the most important things IMO.
I don't really care for 3D or interpolation (motionflow and what not...), stuff like that must be possible to disable in the menus.

I haven't read up on LED TV's but i really like how they look and that they use much less power than my current TV.

I use a program on my PC called Playstation Media Server (PSM) to stream film to my PS3 a lot. Some of the new TV's have an internet streaming feature that should work with the new beta release of PSM which sounds pretty cool. Not having to use the PS3 for this would also save a lot of power in the long run, but it's not really a must - more like a nice bonus

Anyway i hope some of you have looked into this and could give me some pointers

[Fudoh]

I've given up on this. The LCD TVs, especially those with great picture quality, are getting slower and slower (in terms of lag). Probably the best gaming TV you can get right now is the S20 series of Panasonic Plasmas. They've got 1 frame of lag and being a plasma of course, they've got the best possible motion resolution and no smearing at all. Available in 42" and likely cheaper than any mediocre 40" LCD.

[Konsolkongen]

But Plasmas don't like to be TATE'ed right?

EDIT: And what about "green ghosting"? The black smearing we talked about in PM's some time ago really annoys me on my current set. Won't this be even worse? I have also heard that the contrast should get a lot worse over time. Is this a problem with all models?

[RGB32E]

But Plasmas don't like to be TATE'ed right?

EDIT: And what about "green ghosting"? The black smearing we talked about in PM's some time ago really annoys me on my current set. Won't this be even worse? I have also heard that the contrast should get a lot worse over time. Is this a problem with all models?

Commercial Panasonic plasmas are built for portrait or landscape mounting. Other than commercial models, who knows... since they were not intended for that type of operation, not to say they couldn't...

It's more yellow than green these days. I'd rather deal with LCD S&H blur than phosphor lag (picture breakup). So, the "better" native motion resolution on "most" PDPs is a misnomer of sorts...

Here's one example (RGB - RG<<<>>>>>B)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLeZuP2RnSM

Suggesting a Panasonic plasma.... and a lower end unit... shame on you Fudoh! Considering that the game mode lag on my TV is 2 frames... is one frame a selling point? The Panasonic PDPs might do well with B1.... but you sure as **** won't be able to do B0 @ 1080p!

Also.... the main reason for posting is that I just received the VDigi Wii HDMI upscaler! Initial observations coming soon!

[Fudoh]

But Plasmas don't like to be TATE'ed right?

not really a problem, some models have their ventilation openings on top and those get moved to the sides instead when the display gets rotated. I know a few 42" plasma setups which have used the displays tated for years now without any hickups.

And what about "green ghosting"? The black smearing we talked about in PM's some time ago really annoys me on my current set

It's been heavily reduced on the 20 series from Panasonic. Besides, it's only happening with games which use certain color combination (e.g. Gears of War "mud" in "mud"). You'd throw up if I showed you such a game on my (LCD) display. My Sony LCD drops it's response rate to >> 300ms (!!) on certain color combinations, so the characters in GoW and other dark games have literally ghosts (or black phantoms) following them. You can google for LCD smearing for that. And unfortunately most 40" and larger LCDs are affected by this - some more, some less. So choosing between LCD and Plasma is just choosing what bothers you less.

So, the "better" native motion resolution on "most" PDPs is a misnomer of sorts..

the motion resolution is really much better. While most Plasma sets retain Full HD resolution with motion, many LCDs still drop to half resolution.... I'm a LCD fan myself. I would have considered a Plasma, but there are other points which bother me. There've been nice gaming LCDs from Sony (Z4500, XBR5 and some more), but it's been getting worse the past two years. You got a great TV (X4500 US model, fantastic black frame insertion mode btw!), I would even say the best yet for movies, but the fact that it's slower than the XBR5 (even with the local dimming disabled in gamemode) is pure stupidity by Sony.

Suggesting a Panasonic plasma.... and a lower end unit...

the higher end units (e.g. a VT20) has considerably more lag than the lower end units.

Considering that the game mode lag on my TV is 2 frames... is one frame a selling point?

yeah, unfortunately I think it is. A "1-frame display" possibly allows me to use some kind of processor up front, but with already 2-frames delay present I wouldn't dare to add another 2-frames.

[Fudoh]

Initial observations coming soon!

looking forward to it

[Konsolkongen]

And what about "green ghosting"? The black smearing we talked about in PM's some time ago really annoys me on my current set

It's been heavily reduced on the 20 series from Panasonic. Besides, it's only happening with games which use certain color combination (e.g. Gears of War "mud" in "mud"). You'd throw up if I showed you such a game on my (LCD) display. My Sony LCD drops it's response rate to >> 300ms (!!) on certain color combinations, so the characters in GoW and other dark games have literally ghosts (or black phantoms) following them. You can google for LCD smearing for that. And unfortunately most 40" and larger LCDs are affected by this - some more, some less. So choosing between LCD and Plasma is just choosing what bothers you less.

So for all 2D retro games this usually wont be a problem?

I want to use the wallmount i'm currently using to TATE my 40" LCD screen for the new TV as well.

My old tv weighs 18.5kg and this Panasonic weighs 23kg w/o stand. The wallmount should be able to hold 25kg but it's gonna be a close one as i will also need a Vesa 200x200 to 400x300 adapter plate :/

What's up with burn in these days? Most games i play are in 4:3 and i would hate if the black borders were to permanently burn in the screen Some days when i play a lot my current TV can stay in 4:3 mode for 5-6 hours in one go. I also heard that you should be careful about still pictures the first 200 hours you use a plasma.

What about the drop in contrast ratio? Is it as bad as it sounds?

The lack of a VGA input is pretty disappointing. Of course i can use my VGA to HDMI converter for XRGB and Optoma for Dreamcast. But the VGA to HDMI converter doesn't work with MegaDrive and Neo Geo in B1 mode. I assume that the Gefen VGA to DVI scaler would work here though...

[Fudoh]

So for all 2D retro games this usually wont be a problem?

in my eyes not at all.

What's up with burn in these days?

There's slight image retention (e.g. a score when you play a single game for hours). Those effect are gone within minutes of changing the game. Burn in isn't a problem anymore (unless you let on a single screen for 48+ hours). There's also no more need to drive in (100-200 hours) a plasma. If you want calibrated colors, it makes sense to do another calibration after a few hundred hours, but that's it.

What about the drop in contrast ratio? Is it as bad as it sounds?

not at all... A plasma's white level isn't as high as a LCD's one, but unless you drive your LCD with full backlight setting and 100% contrast, no worries there. I have my Sony LCD on eco power saviing mode and backlight level to 3/10 which is about the same as dimmed down Plasma.

The lack of a VGA input is pretty disappointing.

unfortunately Panasonic dropped VGA from the cheap models, yes, but as you stated there are other possibilites. I would really suggest that you check out a Panasonic plasma in a store. The picture is so much more analogue-CRT-like than a LCD, it's amazing. The european Panny sets are also among the few displays which really shine in displaying analogue RGB via Scart.

But the VGA to HDMI converter doesn't work with MegaDrive and Neo Geo in B1 mode.

hard to tell, maybe it works and simply the Sony can't display it. The Gefen would work, yes. Also a VGA to YUV transcoder would work.

[EatenByGrues]

So I finally got my XRGB3 in and it's pretty great. Took me a while to get B1 to work with my TV (had to set the horizontal/vertical polarity both to inverted if anyone is curious). Anyway I have noticed some interesting behavior that only seems to affect certain consoles (and in some cases certain games).

I have a model 2 US saturn (circle button 80000A ) and it works great besides having a little bit of overscan (not anything I can do about that right?). My issue is with Nights. I have tried numerous games on it, Darius Gaiden, Burning Rangers, Astal, Virtua Fighter 2 etc, but so far Nights is the only what that does that. On certain screens such as during the level or during the boss fights there are colored moving pixels on the far left of the image. I have tried messing around with the settings to no avail, but it is pretty distracting. It doesn't show up during the menus.

The other issue I have been having is with my Model 1 genesis. Some games like Thunderforce 3 there are no issues, but I get very similar behavior mentioned above with Nights on the Sonic games. In sonic 2 for instance at the top of the overscan area in the bottom of the screen (so right below the game area) there is a line of flickering colored pixels). There is also about a five pixel tall bar of what looks like a piece of the image being repeated right above this.

Is this the genesis? the cable? (I'm using a EU->JP adapter cable. I wouldn't think that would be an issue as the other console seem to work fine). I have heard some people say that the Model 2 genesis might be better for using with the XRGB?

Besides the XRGB wiki are they any other good resources for tweaking it for specific consoles?

EDIT: I'm talking about B1 mode above

[Konsolkongen]

...but so far Nights is the only what that does that. On certain screens such as during the level or during the boss fights there are colored moving pixels on the far left of the image. I have tried messing around with the settings to no avail, but it is pretty distracting. It doesn't show up during the menus.

I have completed Nights Into Dreams several times using the XRGB-3 (best freaking game ever btw... ) and i don't remember anything like that. Do you know a boss where it always happens for you so i can test it on my setup later. I have both the JAP and EU versions of this game.

The other issue I have been having is with my Model 1 genesis. Some games like Thunderforce 3 there are no issues, but I get very similar behavior mentioned above with Nights on the Sonic games. In sonic 2 for instance at the top of the overscan area in the bottom of the screen (so right below the game area) there is a line of flickering colored pixels). There is also about a five pixel tall bar of what looks like a piece of the image being repeated right above this.

Pretty sure that is part of the signal. I have experienced it using any model MegaDrive and it happens in most games (if not all games?). I was confused about it at first but now it doesn't really bother me anymore

EDIT: Wait i was too quick to reply. The part about the repeating picture is news to me. Could you take some pictures please?

[SGGG2]

I have a model 2 US saturn (circle button 80000A ) and it works great besides having a little bit of overscan (not anything I can do about that right?). My issue is with Nights. I have tried numerous games on it, Darius Gaiden, Burning Rangers, Astal, Virtua Fighter 2 etc, but so far Nights is the only what that does that. On certain screens such as during the level or during the boss fights there are colored moving pixels on the far left of the image. I have tried messing around with the settings to no avail, but it is pretty distracting. It doesn't show up during the menus.

I have the same issue with Nights on my Japanese skeleton Saturn, so I don't think it's the XRGB. I don't find it distracting myself.

[Konsolkongen]

The lack of a VGA input is pretty disappointing.

unfortunately Panasonic dropped VGA from the cheap models, yes, but as you stated there are other possibilites. I would really suggest that you check out a Panasonic plasma in a store. The picture is so much more analogue-CRT-like than a LCD, it's amazing. The european Panny sets are also among the few displays which really shine in displaying analogue RGB via Scart.

Unfortunately no shops in my area has this TV on display :/ But if this is a TV you would consider buying then i'll take your word that it's good enough

[EatenByGrues]

Ok well thanks for the help. I did some more investigating myself and it looks like all the above mentioned stuff is just part of the genesis's weird video output (I even managed to get some of it using an emulator so that rules out pretty much everything). I read somewhere that the changing overscan colors was used as a hack by some developers to get one more display color out of the genesis (since it has a pretty restricted color palette).

The site seems to be down at the moment, but on the XRGB wiki they mention that version 2.12 has aspect ratio issues with the genesis/mega-drive. Does that mean that older revisions of the firmware work better with it? I noticed the XRGB has 4 firmware banks (b0 b1 b2 b3) is there a way to flash older versions of B1/B0 to those last two firmware banks? Does anything go in those?

One last thing, any reccomendations on a good SCART switchbox? I'm in the US (if it wasn't obvious from the Genesis) so it isn't the sort of thing I could pick up at a best-buy.

[Fudoh]

Does that mean that older revisions of the firmware work better with it?

no, that's a general problem with the XRGB's output. But not that I would call it a big problem anyway...

I noticed the XRGB has 4 firmware banks (b0 b1 b2 b3) is there a way to flash older versions of B1/B0 to those last two firmware banks? Does anything go in those?

There's a Widescreen firmware for the B2 bank, but that was before the 4:3 and 16:10 modes were merged into one. Quite some time ago. Currently there's no use for the B2 and B3 banks.

[Konsolkongen]

Does that mean that older revisions of the firmware work better with it?

It turned out that the XRGB-3 outputs 720x480 in B1 mode and most TV's sees this as 640x480. So the bad scaling isn't caused by the XRGB but the TV instead

[RGB32E]

Finally got a digital camera (a real one ):


F-Zero -> SNES -> RGB -> Game Input -> 1920x1080 -> Analog out -> XBR8 PC Input

More pictures and HD video to come!

[Konsolkongen]

Looks okayish...

[RGB32E]

Without further ado:

-Does not support 240p processing -> 480i and 480p only (Wii put into 480i mode to test 240p output)

-Exhibits a chroma delay bug, where the color information of the picture is shifted to the right of the B/W information.

-Ringing on the scaled output (surprise surprise ), regardless of output resolution from the VDigi. If the VDigi doesn't add EE/sharpness to the scaled output, my TV will (480p and below using the component or HDMI input) - defeating the the whole point of the unit.

-Signal output from the VDigi seems fairly clean (good ADC used?).

-As far as getting good PQ from the Wii, the ranking for my setup is:
VDigi < XBR8 Component input < XRGB-3 B0 < Extron CVC 300.

The Extron CVC 300 gives the best overall PQ (minimal artifacts). I wouldn't imagine the 480p to 1080p scaling on the PC input on my TV would add much in terms of input lag. Only problem is that the CVC is only a solution for 480p output.

If VDigi could fix the chroma bug and ringing, this unit would be awesome. It would be great if the VDigi's FW could be updated to fix the chroma bug and ringing.... but I'm not holding my breath. Meh...


Intial Obs from NGF:
I tested the 240p output from the Wii (Zelda 1 and Mario 2) and this device will not accept 240p, just 480i and 480p. Hence, this device is not an option for the Neo Geo.

The picture quality isn't quite up to the standard of my particular TV, as the output picture has a chroma bug of sorts, and exhibits "rining" on the scaled output.



<Add image Later - XBR8 vs VDigi vs Extron CVC300 vs XRGB3 B0>

I didn't notice any particular picture noise issues, which is a big plus for an external scaler! The unit's picture mode setting (mode 1/2) appears to change the timing for underscan/overscan. On my XBR8 @ 1080p with TV set to Full Pixel, the default mode was underscanned - likely compensating for typical HDTV overscan defaults (full pixel is 1:1). Mode 2 corrected the underscan, and might have had some underscan only on the left and right hand side of the screen.

I can imagine making a finger board adapter so that this device can be used with any other component source (save 240p sources )... Edit later...

[Fudoh]

You wouldn't happen to have a HDBoxPro ? My guess is that they're using the same IC....

[RGB32E]

You wouldn't happen to have a HDBoxPro ? My guess is that they're using the same IC....

I have the GBS-8220.... the arcade generic version:



I will post a video of the strange shifting artifact on this unit soon.