Xbox 360: Mushihimesama Futari 1.5 (November 2009)

[Hair]

The slowdown in this game kills it for me. I love Cave and I love this game, but it happens to be my least favorite Cave game.

Original mode is too easy. The hard parts *are* hard, but 90% of it is so easy that it is boring. Maniac mode is very challenging, but again with the slow down. I just get bored plodding through this thing.

I understand and can enjoy artful or cinematic slowdown in shmups, but the slowdown in Futari is sloppy. Is this an Xbox hardware issue? Does the PCB play better? Does turning off the "smoothing" option help?

I do love the art direction and atmosphere in this game.

I'd just rather play Galuda II. Have Mushi Mushi Pork/Pink Sweets on the way.

[Evilmaxwar]

The slowdown in this game kills it for me. I love Cave and I love this game, but it happens to be my least favorite Cave game.

Original mode is too easy. The hard parts *are* hard, but 90% of it is so easy that it is boring. Maniac mode is very challenging, but again with the slow down. I just get bored plodding through this thing.

I understand and can enjoy artful or cinematic slowdown in shmups, but the slowdown in Futari is sloppy. Is this an Xbox hardware issue? Does the PCB play better? Does turning off the "smoothing" option help?

I do love the art direction and atmosphere in this game.

Yeah i started playing this Tuesday and i thought this was gonna be a total blast but i find i am being annoyed a lot by those slowdowns.

It seems to get worse the more i play. Im used to playing old school stuff where slowdowns mean the hardware is not coping. Its throwing me off rhythm and i misjudge my position.

Unlike you i do not find the game too easy and the slowdowns certainly help in many tight spots. However i agree that some spots that have massive slowdown are just a pain and would not be more difficult at full speed, like sweeping the screen blowing pop corns. It gets in the way of getting there when doing lets say practice runs for the mid level boss. Im really started to feel frustrated about this.

Are most newer Cave games like this ? Before that all i played is the first DDP and Dangun Feveron .

[agustusx]

If i remember correctly Futari has more slowdown on the 360 than the arcade version. Not sure if they ever patched it but that was a big thing at launch.

Not that it addresses your issues with slowdown. Newer Cave games have a fair amount of slowdown. I would say all the newer games have tons more slowdown than DDP and Dangun Feveron. Not sure I ever experienced any at all in Dangun, but I've only played it via MAME.

[Evilmaxwar]

If memory serves, both DDP and Dangun do not have slowdowns at alll, or is very minimal. These slowdowns in futari are so severe it now reminds me of the movie Matrix, which i do not like btw.

Ps. The only slowdown i like is when a character "dies" in street fighter, lol

[RNGmaster]

DDP does not have slowdown

What the eff, man. Stage 5 has slowdown out the wazoo, especially if you use autofire which forces the game to spawn more objects and slows it a little bit more.

[mesh control]

Slowdown is a staple of cave's games.

[Evilmaxwar]

What the eff, man. Stage 5 has slowdown out the wazoo, especially if you use autofire which forces the game to spawn more objects and slows it a little bit more.

You playing it emulated?

Anyway what i mean is that i think the slowdowns in Futari are intentionals. DDP on the other hand, i played it on the Saturn and i still have to see it slow down. Also played it emulated on a fast machine with proper settings and still no or minimal slowdowns.

See this from stage 5 second loop on saturn . http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCBBLCwhDCM

You can see some small slowdown around 35-36s but thats really insignificant compared to what we experience in Mushi, and the rest of the video is pretty much constant speed.

[Hair]

Slow down is something I am used to in bullet hell in general, not just Cave (I'm also a big ABA fan and his games have a lot of slow down), but there are many different ways for slowdown to manifest and effect the gameplay. I think Futari's slowdown is just awkward rather than cinematic.

But I am going to put more time into the game and I don't think it sucks by any means. I was just a little let down by it and find myself getting bored by the long slow sections.

Also, I have mainly been playing 360 mode (I thought it would have less slowdown), so I will play arcade mode more now and see if it is a little smoother. I don't have XBL so I can't get any patches.

[chempop]

I'm not sure if he's dogging the slowdown, or the fact that BOTH Mushi games have that sudden jerky moment when the slowdown disengages and if your not anticipating it, you'll probably be screwed and loose a life. It happens far more often in the Mushi series than other CAVE games, to me anyway. I still love both games, but I usually have frustrating deaths when this happens, where as something like Ketsui or Galuda 2 kicks my ass because I haven't herded or weaved effectively enough.

[NzzpNzzp]

What the eff, man. Stage 5 has slowdown out the wazoo, especially if you use autofire which forces the game to spawn more objects and slows it a little bit more.

DDP slows down when things get heavy, but most of Cave's recent stuff slows down nearly all the time. Just look at DFK slowing down every time you hyper, or that ridiculous Deathsmiles video of the ice level where the US version finishes like two minutes before the Japanese one because it's had the slowdown removed. Pretty much no comparison there.

[Schrodinger's cat]

Going into the slowdown doesn't bother me that much, although getting out of it can be a pain at times. It saves my life more often than killing me at the end of stage 3 when you kill enemies to get lots of gems.

I think that the first Mushi was more brutal as far as speed acceleration goes when leaving slowdown, especially during some of the bosses (stage 4 especially IMO). Some patterns were easy to dodge right until the very end when the game decides to speed up, and then you always somehow get hit by the last bullet in the pattern. Then again I was playing the ps2 port...

But it's always those damned last few bullets that get you!

[Sumez]

Cave fans complaining when Cave put too much slowdown in their games. Cave fans complaining when Cave remove slowdown from their games.

I really like Futari the way it is.

[defected78]

Futari to me is my favourite conversion.

[Hair]

Yeah but Sumez, they aren't the same fans that make both complaints, and they aren't exactly mutually exclusive anyways, so your comment makes little sense.

I don't want them to remove slowdown when they port a game. I just want it to play good in the first place. Big difference. Also a big difference between artful and sloppy slowdown.

I haven't played any other Cave game that plays as poorly as Futari. If they really did it on purpose and think they nailed it, and some fans like it, cool. I'm just not one of them and it doesn't make me a hypocrite as you imply.

[Sumez]

My comment makes sense to the extent that it's really difficult for Cave to make everyone happy.

Cave never "removes slowdown" when they port a game. If there's any slowdown in a straight port, it's completely new slowdown due to either a sloppy port or completely different workings in the Xbox CPU, RAM or compiler. So "ideally" a straight port will have no slowdown at all, except from maybe some unintended slowdown. In order to make a game designed for the hardware slowdown in the arcade version, the next step they have to take, is emulating this slowdown (software slowdown).

This can be done good or poorly, and it's a LOT harder to hit the exact same slowdown as the arcade version than most people seem to think. So personally I think we should be happy with what we get and adapt to the amount of slowdown present in the game we decided to buy, as long as it's not unplayable. And as far as I heard, Futari did one of the best jobs at emulating hardware slowdown out of all the X360 Cave ports.

[moozooh]

Original mode is too easy. The hard parts *are* hard, but 90% of it is so easy that it is boring.

Have you cleared it yet? Have you hit 70k on the overall counter to have enemy bullets travel at nearly twice the normal speed? Do you kill enemies at close range to get twice more gems?

If the answers to those are "no", and I expect them to be, I don't even understand how to take your "boring; too easy" rant remotely seriously. If the game is reportedly too easy and still manages to kick your ass, it's hard to make a case in your favor.

I haven't played any other Cave game that plays as poorly as Futari.

Considering this opinion is pretty much polar opposite to the overwhelming majority's, I'm really curious as to what other games you've played and how far have you made it in them.

[Soldato J]

Speaking of Futari slowdown---on a related topic---was it ever confirmed that the stutter problems were/were not caused by the Black Label DLC? I have not picked it up since the game launch because I have been afraid that it will cause stutter issues (which I have not experienced up to this point).

[Lance Boyle]

Cave never "removes slowdown" when they port a game.

False. Deathsmiles NA.

[Special World]

Speaking of Futari slowdown---on a related topic---was it ever confirmed that the stutter problems were/were not caused by the Black Label DLC? I have not picked it up since the game launch because I have been afraid that it will cause stutter issues (which I have not experienced up to this point).

Personally, I aven't had any problems with black label. Once every blue moon there's a momentary stutter before the first powerup bug, but it's very rare and has never caused me any problems.

[Hair]

This can be done good or poorly, and it's a LOT harder to hit the exact same slowdown as the arcade version than most people seem to think. So personally I think we should be happy with what we get and adapt to the amount of slowdown present in the game we decided to buy, as long as it's not unplayable. And as far as I heard, Futari did one of the best jobs at emulating hardware slowdown out of all the X360 Cave ports.

That's a good point.

I have Cave games on two consoles as well as the obvious Mame roms, but I've never played a real Cave PCB.

[Evilmaxwar]

What the What!!! I just tried Arranged mode and it does not have the dreadful Slowdowns, damn this feels so much better!! I actually play better also, im not used to this kind of slowdown.
I wish there was a way to play the 1.5 mode without the slowdowns, the Arranged mode is cool but its a bit over the top and the secondary flier annoys me.

Frankly i think the version 1.5 xbox 360 mode should have been just that, like the arcade but no slowdowns, then you leave the arcade mode with slowdowns and all for those who wants to play it "authentic"

Maybe, i dont know, if the original slowdowns of the arcade are 100% hardware related then perhaps, by emulating on a powerful machine with an overclocked virtual cpu you could produce an arcade version without slowdown, that would be cool. Just speculating.

[MrFog]

Maybe, i dont know, if the original slowdowns of the arcade are 100% hardware related then perhaps, by emulating on a powerful machine with an overclocked virtual cpu you could produce an arcade version without slowdown, that would be cool.

They are not. Slowdown in Original Mode starts at not even half the bullets needed to trigger it in ultra/god.

Arrange mode ultra is proof that the 360 hardware is more than able to run any CAVE game with no slowdown at all. And yet the other arrange modes like DFK Arrange A, Espgaluda 2 BL and so on always feature artificial slowdown too.

[Skykid]

You guys need to slow down your mouths to stop so much crap coming out.

[Evilmaxwar]

Maybe, i dont know, if the original slowdowns of the arcade are 100% hardware related then perhaps, by emulating on a powerful machine with an overclocked virtual cpu you could produce an arcade version without slowdown, that would be cool.

They are not. Slowdown in Original Mode starts at not even half the bullets needed to trigger it in ultra/god.

Arrange mode ultra is proof that the 360 hardware is more than able to run any CAVE game with no slowdown at all. And yet the other arrange modes like DFK Arrange A, Espgaluda 2 BL and so on always feature artificial slowdown too.

It think its quite obvious the 360 has more than enough horsepower, i was referring to the PCB.

[Sumez]

Cave never "removes slowdown" when they port a game.

False. Deathsmiles NA.

Completely different subject. That was a localization, not a port.
What I'm talking about is that the slowdown on the arcade versions (most likely) isn't software controlled, it's really based on hardware limitations, so just porting the code to another system won't necessarily carry its slowdown over along with it...

[MrFog]

It think its quite obvious the 360 has more than enough horsepower, i was referring to the PCB.

Yes, I was referring to the arcade version as well with the comment about slowdown in original mode compared to ultra/god.

[Hair]

You guys need to slow down your mouths to stop so much crap coming out.

Do you have an actual point?

[Skykid]

You guys need to slow down your mouths to stop so much crap coming out.

Do you have an actual point?

Yeah, you just quoted it.

[Hair]

So, that would be a "no".

Actual insight tends to trump smart-assery. Do you have any insight to share? How do you feel about the slowdown in Futari? Just right? Too much? What makes you feel that way? Adult discussions tend to go better when snarky insults are at least accompanied with some sort of relevant point.

Evilmaxwar-
I have tried arrange mode but didn't care for it as much as normal mode so I don't think I got very far. I'll try it again and get to the later stages where the slowdown is more common.

Edit: You're right, no slowdown at all. Interesting.

I am not digging the mechanics of arrange mode. The thing that tails you is annoying and it seems more about abusing the specific bullet-slowing and returning mechanic for score than dodging.

Anyone a fan of the arrange mode? How do you get the most out of it?

[Skykid]

So, that would be a "no".

Actual insight tends to trump smart-assery. Do you have any insight to share? How do you feel about the slowdown in Futari? Just right? Too much? What makes you feel that way? Adult discussions tend to go better when snarky insults are at least accompanied with some sort of relevant point.

Smart assery is a fair trade for dumb assery. I don't feel any two ways about Futari's slowdown or any other Cave game with slowdown. Slowdown is part of the game, it's part of Cave's bullet hell paradigm and always has been. They've been quoted in interviews saying that while some slowdown in the PCB is hardware generated, other slowdown is implemented intentionally. They then intend to honour the original arcade experience (in most cases) by attempting to accurately translate that slowdown to the home port. Sometimes they get it bang on (DDP DOJ/Espgaluda) sometimes they cock it up and everyone complains because it essentially ruins the game (Ibara/Deathsmiles NA)

Futari is considered a very accurate all round port. The slowdown isn't 100%, but most of it's replicated properly. I own both the port and PCB and can vouch for the fact that there's very little between the two.

Hope that helps.