What [not shmup] game are you playing now?

[XoPachi]

Less than one third of the game I think. Definitely worth getting back to it if newer PC, on get a console release.

Tbh I wasn't wild about the game. I'm not really terribly pressed to resume it.

[Steven]

I just finished Sonic Frontiers. It was...

okay, I suppose.

This game shifts between lifeless monotony and sort of mildly interesting. Fortunately, it isn't nearly as annoying and time-consuming to traverse than the few other open world games I have suffered through, and it generally can be entertaining enough to move from one side of an area to another in most instances, but it still has odd sections where it forces you to be in 2D and stuff, which can be really annoying, but it's not too bad. I mainly bought it just because I was curious as to how Sonic would actually work in a massive open area, and it is ultimately kind of like actually being able to play the opening of Sonic CD, especially since you can basically do most of that stuff, but it somehow manages to not quite be as fun as you'd think it would or should be. I do mean not quite, as it's... interesting, I guess, but rarely thrilling, and the physics can be extremely awkward at times, which does not help.

By the end of the game I got tired of running around semi-aimlessly looking for the items you need to advance the story or whatever, so I said fuck it and went fishing since I had like 800 of those purple fishing coins somehow and caught some fish and used the fish points to buy the shit I needed, which ended up being way faster, more efficient, and actually more entertaining than it would have been to run around and pick up the stuff on the island. It's quite odd to see Sonic being all happy to catch strange things like garbage and weirdly realistic alligators, and you have fucking marlin and giant isopods in this tiny-ass little pond for some reason, but it's fun to see all of the weird things you can catch, so I 100% completely forgive the devs for the crazy selection of fish and alligator and garbage and giant isopod and everything else.

Apparently this game has music. I sure as hell don't remember any of it, but it was apparently there. Same with the graphics, which definitely don't look like a Sonic game. Sonic music = things like Green Hill, Chemical Plant, Angel Island, Aquatic Ruin, Metropolis, Lava Reef, that crazy Sonic 3(&K) final boss music, Stardust Speedway, and whatever the hell Sonic R's soundtrack is supposed to be because that shit is cheesy as hell and it's perfect. I don't really think the super generic and strangely realistic totally not-Sonic-looking graphics are a problem, but I'm used to weird checkerboards and stuff like what you see in Unleashed, Lost World, and Colors, and that is what I prefer.

Overall it's better than those awful Sonic Adventure games, Sonic 06, and Waku Waku Sonic Patrol Car, which doesn't really say much, but if you are going to play 3D Sonic, play Generations (on PC) or Colors. Or, even better, my personal favourite, Sonic R, just to marvel at how such a mess of a game is so unbelievably fun simply because it's such a mess.

Oh yeah, and you get to play Bootleg Ikaruga™ a few times.

[Sima Tuna]

I've actually been playing a bit of 2d classic Sonic lately. I didn't grow up with it, so aside from a few minutes here and there on ps2 and xbox 360 ports, I have little play time with these. They're fun. I used to think "the point of Sonic is to run fast" and was always confused why my character would get hit on stages by deliberate traps when I tried to run fast. But now I'm able to see a little more of the deliberate stage design. The whole momentum thing, earned speed, risk vs reward with the ball form and stage hazards etc. It's cool. Despite the rings system and generous extends, these games seem to have a more "arcade action" core than some other console platformers. The 2d Genesis games have a great sense of immediacy.

Spoiler

The special stages in Sonic 1 are total dogshit though.

The Sega Ages ports are awesome as well. The ability to play as Knuckles in Sonic 2 (Sonic 2 is the game I've played the most in the past) or activate Drop Dash for the classic games is sweet. Adding Drop and Spin dash to Sonic 1 is like playing a really fun Arrange Mode.

The more time I spend playing classic Sonic, the more obvious the gulf in quality between classic and modern sonic games becomes. Even the "good" 3d and modern sonic games are jank or bland compared to the classic stuff. I did also pick up Mania, which seems to be the total exception to the rule. Not crazy about all the stage repeats, but it adds basically every other feature you could possibly want, including 5 characters and the ability to play without a save file (for that classic feel). Really nice attention to detail.

[Steven]

Those first few Sonic games on the Mega Drive or Genesis or whatever are absolutely beautiful games, and Sonic 3 & Knuckles is still pretty much the best 2D platformer ever made aside from possibly Super Metroid and Sonic Mania. Getting the most out of them requires you to figure out how the physics actually work, and even in those first few games the physics are radically different between most of them, what with the ground speed and air speed caps being there for some games and then not for others and stuff. Sonic CD's physics are especially odd.

It's just completely ridiculous how good Sonic 3&K is, and the downgrade between that and Adventure 1, and especially with Adventure 2, is like... what happened? Many years later, I found out that what happened is that Yasuhara, the dude who is the main reason that those first few games are so good, stopped working on Sonic, presumably due to Naka being an arrogant asshole and chasing Yasuhara away. I don't think many people know this, but Sonic Adventure 1 does kind of try to have the same physics as Sonic 3 & Knuckles, and it's the only 3D Sonic game to even attempt this. The potential for a 3D Sonic that actually plays like 2D Sonic is there in the original Sonic Adventure, but it wasn't fully realized and they never attempted it again.

Those first 3(&K) Sonic games were passion projects, and you can tell with 2 and especially with 3&K. The 3&K devs were literally like "the system's hardware can't do the stuff we want it to do to make this game, but fuck the limitations of the system because we are going to do it anyway" and then they actually did it. Rotation? Can't do that in hardware, but it's there anyway. Sprite scaling? Can't do that in hardware, but it's there anyway, and it's the best software sprite scaling on the system (Panorama Cotton's ultra-choppy scaling looks like complete shit, BTW). Oh, we have to meet a deadline and can't finish everything in time? Release and merge two separate ROM cartridges together to create one massive game, complete with bug fixes and updates for the first cartridge in the later cartridge. Using that second ROM cartridge to add Knuckles to a game that predates his existence and modify some of the game just for Knuckles? Yeah sure, no problem.

Like holy fuck, what even happened between then and now? I don't even mean just Sonic but the industry as a whole doesn't even try to do anything extraordinary or special like that anymore and it pisses me off.

There are a few modern/3D Sonic games that I would call fun/good/good enough, though. Generations, Colors, Sonic R, Sonic & Sega All-Stars Racing (the sequel, Transformed, is said to be better than any Mario Kart ever, but IT'S FUCKING REGION LOCKED ON PC AND I CAN'T BUY IT), half of Unleashed (yeah, time to start scraping the bottom of the barrel), and about half of Sonic Adventure 1 can be a lot of fun. Still, none of these are anywhere close to how good Sonic used to be. Fortunately Mania exists.

I have not mentioned Sonic CD that much and that game is kind of special, so I might as well. This game is SUPER WEIRD. I like it, and it's probably my #3 favourite Sonic game, but I hated it at first. Like I really REALLY hated it. Then I figured it out and now I have realized that it's one of the best Sonic games, partially because it's super different from anything else in the series. Apparently the reason that the Acts in Sonic Mania are so ridiculously huge is because Christian Whitehead really loves Sonic CD or something like that. Wacky Workbench can go to hell, though. The original version is a very odd game, especially since it runs very poorly, with relatively frequent slowdown for no good reason as far as I can tell, but I do still like it, and the physics in the 2011 remake are not 100% accurate to the original version.

Going back to Frontiers, I think Frontiers is actually a good foundation for them to build on. Frontiers is super rough, but it has promise and I am looking forward to potentially improved sequels that do exactly what Sonic 2 did: keep what works and make it better, throw away the rest, and add a shitload of polish. Of course, knowing Sonic Team, they'll completely get rid of everything and we'll end up with some trash like Sonic Heroes instead lol.

[ryu]

Like holy fuck, what even happened between then and now? I don't even mean just Sonic but the industry as a whole doesn't even try to do anything extraordinary or special like that anymore and it pisses me off.

Lots of people in management back then had a passion for those early games themselves. And just suits in general knew a lot less about profit optimizations, so developers had much more freedom. Just look at Nintendo post-Iwata. Mario Kart used to get a fresh release on each new generation - on handheld and console. The switch is hugely successful and all it gets is DLC for a rerelease of MK8.

And that's just management. Developers were impressed with Elden Ring's narrative... but every person with half a brain knows the game is just Dark Souls in a lot worse. How do you work in game development and sleep on Dark Souls?

[XoPachi]

Frontiers is fatiguing to even look at and the thought of actually playing it makes me sick.
Sonic makes me sad and I was one of those fans that's been going "maybe next time" for years. That's one of my favorite characters and it just makes me upset I cannot get a game I can just enjoy in that series. Right next to Zelda for me these days.

[Udderdude]

Right next to Zelda for me these days.

Tried ALBW on 3ds? I really liked that one.

[Steven]

Like holy fuck, what even happened between then and now? I don't even mean just Sonic but the industry as a whole doesn't even try to do anything extraordinary or special like that anymore and it pisses me off.

Lots of people in management back then had a passion for those early games themselves. And just suits in general knew a lot less about profit optimizations, so developers had much more freedom. Just look at Nintendo post-Iwata. Mario Kart used to get a fresh release on each new generation - on handheld and console. The switch is hugely successful and all it gets is DLC for a rerelease of MK8.

And that's just management. Developers were impressed with Elden Ring's narrative... but every person with half a brain knows the game is just Dark Souls in a lot worse. How do you work in game development and sleep on Dark Souls?

Yeah, games started to make insane amounts of money and shitty, greedy lifeforms like Bobby Kotick started to take control of the largest publishers.

I feel like Sega is probably the last of the big companies that kind of cares about making a good game and trying new things, but of course it's Sega and they don't know how to do that properly. Shin Sakura Taisen and especially Valkyria Chronicles show signs of life and that their dev teams actually care, but the former failed to sell well in Japan and the latter has severe game balance issues. (Un)fortunately, a lifetime of loving Sega (well, between 2002 and 2013 I completely disowned Sega out of disgust, so maybe not a lifetime, but...) means that I've put up with countless stupid decisions and I am used to it by now.

Someday, eventually, Sega will get it right. I hope. Sonic Mania was so fucking good to the point where humanity doesn't even deserve its very existence, but Sega didn't make that, so I am not sure if that counts, but I do want a vague excuse to mention it anyway, so there it is.

Frontiers is fatiguing to even look at and the thought of actually playing it makes me sick.
Sonic makes me sad and I was one of those fans that's been going "maybe next time" for years. That's one of my favorite characters and it just makes me upset I cannot get a game I can just enjoy in that series. Right next to Zelda for me these days.

The irony is that Frontiers being just kind of acceptable makes it easily one of the best (or least terrible, if you prefer) 3D Sonic games. It's a decent ~6.5 out of 10 game and I'll give it a recommendation if you have nothing better to play and want to give it a shot. Yeah, ~6.5 out of 10 is on the good side for 3D Sonic, sadly.

If you asked me to rank 3D Sonic games, I'd probably do this:

Sonic R in terms of enjoyment
3D Blast, if you want to count it for some reason (some people do, so here it is)
Generations
Unleashed daytime stages
Colors
Frontiers
Unleashed as a collective whole is difficult, but I think I'd put it about here. Absolutely could/would consider swapping positions with Frontiers, though.
Adventure 1
Forces
Lost World (I guess. I've barely played it)
Unleashed nighttime stages
Adventure 2
Sonic R in terms of game design
Heroes
06

Unplayed: Shadow, Secret Rings, Black Knight, Boom

[XoPachi]

Tried ALBW on 3ds? I really liked that one.

Oh that was the last one I liked. I 100% that launch day. I fucking loved that goddamn game.

But that's the only one I've liked since Twilight Princess. I enjoy none of the spinoff shit save for Four Swords Adventures.

[Steven]

Twilight Princess made me give up on that entire series as a collective whole. Haven't even been able to enjoy the earlier games since then for some reason. Maybe I grew out of that series or something. I don't know why, but I also don't care.

[cfx]

There are a few modern/3D Sonic games that I would call fun/good/good enough, though. Generations, Colors, Sonic R, Sonic & Sega All-Stars Racing (the sequel, Transformed, is said to be better than any Mario Kart ever, but IT'S FUCKING REGION LOCKED ON PC AND I CAN'T BUY IT), half of Unleashed (yeah, time to start scraping the bottom of the barrel), and about half of Sonic Adventure 1 can be a lot of fun. Still, none of these are anywhere close to how good Sonic used to be. Fortunately Mania exists

I have what seems to be a minority opinion on Transformed but I will throw it out there, since, as another Sonic R lover, we might have similar tastes on Sonic racing games: I love the first game, but didn't much like Transformed at all.

I'm sure you are aware, the "transformed" in the title refers to the fact you not only have a car, but it transforms into a plane and boat. This happens automatically as you traverse the tracks, as they have sections appropriate for the other vehicles. The car racing in the game is fine, but I hate the parts with the other vehicles. The control on them is poor in my opinion, and many of the boat sections are just open water with buoys that show you vaguely where you need to go. I didn't like the new focus on doing tricks; I want to race and to a lesser degree use items, I don't want to pretend I'm Tony Hawk and look stupid, err, (supposedly) cool.

Both because of this transformation aspect and that some of the themes for the tracks seemed to be focused on at the expense of track design, I felt the tracks were not nearly as good as the first game.

Not that anything in these games has to be based in reality, but the fact your vehicle does these transformations just crosses some kind of believability barrier for me, though that's probably just my own personal issue.

It's been quite some time since I played either game so if I said something factually wrong it's my crappy old age memory again.

For reference, I have no opinion on Mario Kart beyond the Super Nintendo original which I owned but got bored with pretty quickly. I haven't owned a Nintendo console since Gamecube and never played the version on that console. I love F-Zero GX though.

I have the first game on physical disc for PC, and recently finally bought the PS3 version so I'd have it on something I actually play games on. I bought Transformed on PS3 and played it enough hours that I was sure my opinion on it was not going to change, and sold it.

I never bought Team Sonic Racing as I thought the team gameplay gimmick sounded stupid and something I didn't even want to deal with. I could be wrong. It doesn't seem to have been very popular though. I also disliked that all non-Sonic characters were removed; I miss having Ulala.

[Steven]

I REALLY REALLY REALLY want to play Transformed, to the point where I am seriously considering taking a plane trip to Guam just to get a US IP address without risk of a ban to buy a few games on Steam, including Transformed. Yes, I could buy the console version, but yuck, 30FPS.

Yes, I could also get an Xbox Series X and play it there at 60FPS, but it is actually cheaper to fly to Guam, stay in a hotel for a night, buy some games, and go home than it is to buy a Series X (or PS5) here lol. I do want to go to Guam anyway since the last time I was there there was a big storm and I ended up stuck inside the hotel for my stay on the island, so yeah, it's kind of like getting revenge on the island for last time and stuff too.

If I was to put the original Sonic & Sega All-Stars Racing on the 3D Sonic ranking list, I'd actually put it up there with Colors and Generations. It's really good. I might even put it above everything except Sonic R. It's unquestionably better than Sonic R, which is technically super awful, but I like Sonic R because it's just such a goofy and hilarious game that it actually works somehow. I can't hate Sonic R because its badness makes it so perfect.

If you are looking for a platformer, Sonic & Sega All-Stars Racing obviously won't do anything for you, but if you want a damn good Mario Kart ripoff that might actually be better than Mario Kart, Sonic & Sega All-Stars Racing is what you want. I seriously think that it is possible that if this game's title had Mario Kart somewhere in it and you swapped the Sonic assets for Mario assets but left everything else completely identical that a decent amount of people would call this the best Mario Kart ever.

[XoPachi]

Transformed was one of my favorite kart racers. c:

[cfx]

Transformed versus the first game could also be a case of me just preferring simplicity over adding a bunch of other stuff to the game, which at least in this case dilutes the experience for me.

[Steven]

Well, you never know. Will be interested to see what you think of Sonic Colors and Mania.

[Marc]

Transformed is absolutely brilliant. It's a better single player game than MK8D. I tapped out at the 4th star stage though, hitting three on everything took me long enough.

[XoPachi]

Transformed is absolutely brilliant. It's a better single player game than MK8D. I tapped out at the 4th star stage though, hitting three on everything took me long enough.

The only blemish on Transformed for me was Traffic Attack. Fuck those missions. Make me SICK.

Well, you never know. Will be interested to see what you think of Sonic Colors and Mania.

I loved Colors as a kid and like its presentatiom a shit ton but coming back to it now, I don't like it as much. Of the 3D Sonic games that I would still play, its very low on the list.
Its still decent tho.

[ryu]

Transformed was great. The real bummer was Team Sonic Racing. :/ I even played it with 2 friends and we concluded that it wasn't as fun as regular kart racers.

Sonic Frontiers was ... sort of alright. Wasn't a fan of the open zones, but the bosses, some of the mid-bosses and most cyber stages were great fun.

I actually liked the day-time stages of Unleashed better than Generations. Felt like they streamlined the gameplay to appeal to a wider audience, which resulted in comparatively boring stages.

[Sima Tuna]

I wouldn't play any 3d sonic game again, except maybe the Sonic and Tails sections of Adventure 1. I don't really like the boost gameplay of later 3d titles.

[XoPachi]

Transformed was great. The real bummer was Team Sonic Racing. :/ I even played it with 2 friends and we concluded that it wasn't as fun as regular kart racers.

Sonic Frontiers was ... sort of alright. Wasn't a fan of the open zones, but the bosses, some of the mid-bosses and most cyber stages were great fun.

I actually liked the day-time stages of Unleashed better than Generations. Felt like they streamlined the gameplay to appeal to a wider audience, which resulted in comparatively boring stages.

The open world shit was what killed any interest I had in it and hearing that the cyber space areas were just more Sonic Forces shit made me sad. I was hoping that they would have full blown acts with some real set pieces but they're just these 20 second "challenges" where apparently the physics inexplicably change to be more rigid for no reason.
And yeah, TSR was bland with a terrible roster and utterly grotesque kart designs (for the most part). The driving was so flat which is a shame because the tracks are actually pretty good. Damn good. The driving and focus on teams just made the game so dull. I had poor hopes when the director said he made the game because his son got sad losing in racing games. So he set out to make a game where everyone wins.

[m.sniffles.esq]

The real bummer was Team Sonic Racing. :/ I even played it with 2 friends and we concluded that it wasn't as fun as regular kart racers.

Oh, that's where I messed up...
During the pandemic. I was looking for couch co-op games and someone was like "Yo, the Sonic racer is even better than Mario Cart!!". So I downloaded Team Sonic (the only one available for Switch), and was like "Eh... While this certainly isn't bad... It ain't real great, either..."

whoops

[sunnshiner]

Transformed is ace, it's like they took everything that's Sega and distilled it down into the Afterburner and Outrun Stages.

edit- replace 'fluffy with 'Sega'-

[ryu]

I had poor hopes when the director said he made the game because his son got sad losing in racing games. So he set out to make a game where everyone wins.

We live in a literal dystopia.

[XoPachi]

TSR also tried the whole Retro track thing that Mario Kart does and it really did not work. Transformed's tracks only work in Transformed for obvious reasons. When you put that game's tracks in a different entry that doesn't have Transformed's defining gimmick, you get gutted mediocrity. Or at least gutted just when compared to their source.
Obviously that wasn't the bulk of the circuits. But they stuck out way harder in TSR both because they were shells of their originals and in a game that isn't that fun to begin with. Though I guess in all fairness, Transformed did the same thing but the All Stars 1 tracks were boring because All Stars 1 itself was just boring. I would have liked to see those tracks spruced up a lot more than they were, but the rest of the package was so goddamn good, unique, and plentiful that I didn't care. Can't say the same for TSR.

I think if TSR bumped up the speed, made drifting less loose, and improved boosting, that game would be a lot better, weird roster aside. The driving isn't broken, it just doesn't feel satisfying or as fast as it thinks it is.

(And fix the terrible customization system. Just let me freely choose colors and materials.)

[cfx]

Was Team Sonic Racing still made by Sumo Digital? If so, it was quite a disappointment from them.

[Immryr]

the first sonic + sega all stars racing is by far and away the best one imo. it's like they took everything that made crash team racing great and amplified it. i think it's better than all of the mario karts too.

[XoPachi]

Was Team Sonic Racing still made by Sumo Digital? If so, it was quite a disappointment from them.

Yes, which is what makes it so surprising.

the first sonic + sega all stars racing is by far and away the best one imo. it's like they took everything that made crash team racing great and amplified it. i think it's better than all of the mario karts too.

It was an almost carbon copy of MK Wii. I don't really see where the comparison to CTR comes from. That's an extremely technical and much faster game with it's own unique mechanics All Stars 1 shares none of. It's pretty standard as far as kart racers are concerned.

[Immryr]

i'm not exactly some kind of high-level kart racer connoisseur, but the drifting/boost system in SSASR is almost identical to the one in CTR. in both games you want to spend almost all of your time drifting and boosting, even on seemingly straight bits of track. trying to stay in a power slide as much as possible while also doing the multiple presses required for max boost is a really engaging and tactile system to me.

i don't really see any similarity with mario kart wii beyond the obvious 'it's a kart racer with weapons'.

[ryu]

It's been forever since I played CTR on the original PlayStation, but I agree that the Sega-Sonic Kart Racers don't feel much like any Mario Kart game. The always felt more arcadey to me.

[Marc]

Astro's Olsyroom on PS5, and it's fucking glorious. Peak Nintendo level glorious. It Feels wonderful, everything about movement and inertia is just perfect. Levelsvate small and open-ish, but with more direction than is usually present. Its just a really cohesive whole that had me smiling like a kid while playing.
I'm gutted I never booted up the VR game now, and I've just sold the headset and Series X to fund the PSVR2 that's on the way.