Xbox 360: Mushihimesama Futari 1.5 (November 2009)

[moozooh]

As somebody who has no-missed stage 3 on both Original (with over 25k on the counter; IIRC two bombs were spent on the stage, one of which was completely unnecessary) and Maniac, I can tell that it becomes much easier the more you move around the screen and not confine yourself to the bottom 1/3 of it. There are several types of enemies that help you (bullet canceling) and those who trap you (medium flying enemies and woodlice that shoot spreads across the screen). Use the former ones to help yourself out of the difficult situations, and try to kill the latter before they flood the screen. Destroying spread-shooting woodlice on one side and immediately moving towards another to get behind the bullet spreads works pretty well actually, as there is usually slowdown during those parts letting you move to safety without much trouble. As for lice that shoot thin streams of small bullets, think of those as the lanes you can navigate; don't try to move directly across them, there will be an opening if you wait a second or two. It's even easier in Black Label as you get tons of slowdown, at least until you get to that magic 100k.

[ChurchOfSolipsism]

and then the slowdown shifts and a stray bullet seems to accelerate without any warning directly into my line of movement.

I find this fucking annoying as well. They could have made the transition from slowdown to normal speed at least a bit smoother.

[moozooh]

I believe the reason for this happening is that the hardware, which normally outputs 60 fps, is programmed to drop one frame every frame (30 fps), or two frames every frame (20 fps) in especially heavy situations, so you can't get this kind of smoothness easily as it goes from 30 to 60.

[DrTrouserPlank]

Played the S3 boss 30 odd times in practice and I frankly believe some of his patterns are random, and some are undodgeable (2nd form final attack is impossible unless you are lucky or bomb, 3rd form pattern is impossible once it speeds up, unless you are lucky or bomb). Got through those patterns maybe 1 time in 10 that I even reached them by randomly moving. Occasionally I killed him in 3 lives but no less. Plenty of times I just got wiped out at random spots because the patter is too fast or a different, more awkward shape than before.

Did a run on score attack, had maybe a 12-14k multiplier on the 3rd stage. Had to bomb the final part of the mid-boss and bombed pretty much all of the bug section. It was impossbible with the multiplier I had (it's ridiculous enough as normal) Got to the boss with about 8k on the counter. He chucked his random patterns (faster), bombed a couple of times killed his first form (normally I'd do it without bombing and just die if that's how it panned out, but frankly you can't not bomb because you'll just end up with a wasted 15 minute run). Got wiped out soon after by random pattern number 582. A whopping 65 million for all that.... so no hope of any extra lives coming my way for help... one's your lot pal!

Long story short (but not very short) I still believe luck plays as much of a role as knowing what is coming. Maybe you don't need as much luck on the stages, but on the bosses I think you're on a pretty low percentage chance of getting a no miss on any given run.

[Thjodbjorn]

The third boss, though nigh impossible for me, has never once seemed random...

[StarCreator]

If there were any element of randomness in the game, the replay feature likely wouldn't work - replays generally only store the player's movements and button inputs. The fact that this alone is enough to reproduce the exact same run as the original proves there are no random elements whatsoever.

The only variables that changes the bullet pattern are the player's movements and actions. End of story.

[Sapz]

While the third boss is a bit of a step up compared to what the game has thrown at you to that point, it's still extremely manageable and never once impossible. The final attack, for example, speeds up (to a point) over time. This means you need to dodge the waves in shorter intervals. It does not mean that the attack becomes impossible past a certain threshold of speed. You simply have not practiced enough to keep up with the boss yet - it's not remotely impossible by any stretch of the imagination, and every attack is consistently clearable. This applies to every boss in the game, though obviously it gets pretty difficult.

[Chaos Phoenixma]

Randomness wouldn't really stop the replay feature from working. If Zun can put random attacks in the Touhou games and get a working replay feature, I'm sure Cave could as well.

Still, there's almost nothing random in Futari, and if anything is it's definitely not the stage 3 boss. If anything's random, it's probably very few things related to the Larsa fight and the TLB final attacks in Ultra and God Mode(and even if the pattern isn't random, which way the attack starts definitely is)


The reason there's almost nothing random is because it can easily lead to some very impossible situations, which in a game like this is a bad thing.

Also, there can be cases in other games where attacks may be chosen in random orders yet inputs still work on MAME.

[moozooh]

ZUN's attacks aren't random. There's no such thing as "random" in video games, they all use human input to generate content we consider random, and in shmups it mainly depends on player's position (most attacks) and rank (in rank-enabled games). Which means it becomes gradually more manipulable the more you know what triggers certain aspects of its behavior.

DrTrouserPlank, I would like you to try one more thing in your st3 boss practice runs: move as little as possible (i.e., tap-dodge) and see if some of the patterns get easier to read. Also try dodging some of the faster ones near the corner of the screen, as bullets have more time to travel there (thanks, euclidian geometry).

[Udderdude]

I love this attitude of "I can't beat it, therefore it's random/impossible/bad!".

Grow up.

[Aliquantic]

I would also suggest grabbing a replay from a moderately skilled player (someone from this forum who doesn't have a top score say) and see how they handle the parts you're having trouble with (and what they don't do). It might also be worthwhile to study your own replays if you can't really analyze what you're doing wrong as you play (like not shooting down that big bug ASAP, or staying in denser parts of the screen that necessary).

The rank doesn't really make the game that much harder in 1.5 until it gets quite high (it increases pretty sharply when it starts nearing the 70k ceiling, but you're nowhere near that), though. On the other hand, Black Label *is* a lot easier than 1.5 for sheer survival and "average" scoring, and BL Maniac might actually be easier than Original in that one if you're like me and prefer slow and dense bullets to fast ones

(Randomness can be stored so that replays can play back properly though (the seed seems to come from the highscore tables in MAME a lot of the time), and interestingly Erppo has said the DFK 1.5 Novice mode at least actually removes a lot of bullets at random to make it manageable... but that's about how far randomness extends here)

[Annoyboy]

DrTrouserPlank, which mode exactly are you playing? Are we talking about 1.5 Original?

[DrTrouserPlank]

I'll have another look at it later.

DrTrouserPlank, which mode exactly are you playing? Are we talking about 1.5 Original?

Yes.

[hipgnosis]

Stage 3 isn't random (nothing is with this game). Just play some more and you'll start to see how it acts. Here's how I deal with Stage 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lqZ6jQtIfE Had to bomb a couple of times, but it is manageable.

[DrTrouserPlank]

Stage 3 isn't random (nothing is with this game). Just play some more and you'll start to see how it acts. Here's how I deal with Stage 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lqZ6jQtIfE Had to bomb a couple of times, but it is manageable.

Is that Palm normal or abnormal? I'll have to give it a go with him because the strength of his shot means you kill the boss before he fires off his worst sequences. Each form takes a lot longer with Reco.

[Drachenherz]

Talking about scoring vs survival...

Atm, I play BL, with Reco.

I managed to 1cc the game once, that was when I played purely for survival and didn't give a rats ass about score.

After this 1cc, I just cannot bring myself to play solely for survival, my ego is just too strong and I play for score, hard. And thus, I get my butt raped HARD in stage 3, starting with those pill-bugs. And the boss usually finishes me off completely.

Anybody else got those ego-problems? Any tips how to overcome them, besides "learning to play"? In consider praciticing stage 3 incl. boss. What settings do you recommend me in training-mode, for the survival rank?

I'd have no problems practicing this level alone until I got it down to no bombing, no missing it, even if it'd take me weeks or months, but I'd like to know which settings would be better. I guess, for practicing-purposes, I should choose a rank that is higher than my usual rank when I arrive in stage 3 (no missing, using max 2 bombs (stage 2 boss once, once in stage 3 itself).

Waddaya think?

(And yes, I WILL verbally abuse you if you tell me to "learn to play". )

[dan76]

Is that Palm normal or abnormal? I'll have to give it a go with him because the strength of his shot means you kill the boss before he fires off his worst sequences. Each form takes a lot longer with Reco.

As previously posted - Abnormal Palm starts out way more powered up, though I think when fully powered up Normal Palm is the strongest character in the game.

If you're looking for help at least read the replies to your original post. Plus the whole attitude of "I can't do it, it must be luck" is wrong, as is evidence of most of the people here.

[DrTrouserPlank]

Is that Palm normal or abnormal? I'll have to give it a go with him because the strength of his shot means you kill the boss before he fires off his worst sequences. Each form takes a lot longer with Reco.

As previously posted - Abnormal Palm starts out way more powered up, though I think when fully powered up Normal Palm is the strongest character in the game.

If you're looking for help at least read the replies to your original post. Plus the whole attitude of "I can't do it, it must be luck" is wrong, as is evidence of most of the people here.

I did read the replies concerning abnormal palm. Just because I was asking which was being used in the video doesn't mean I haven't read everything else that has been posted.

It's a bit immaterial anyway. I've gave him a try and went back to using Reco, after trying him again today it reminded me why I didn't like him in the first place. The lack of a wide shot and his slow speed makes the game even harder. Whilst he does get rid of bosses quicker that's not a lot of help if you can't get through the stages with him.

[NzzpNzzp]

If the game is just luck then all you need to do is keep playing until you get lucky a whole lot of times in a row and win.

That's basically what I do anyway.

[moozooh]

As previously posted - Abnormal Palm starts out way more powered up, though I think when fully powered up Normal Palm is the strongest character in the game.

You got it backwards. Abnormal Palm's A-shot is by far the strongest in the game, but it starts out so-so and his C-shot can barely deal with popcorn at low power levels. Normal Palm and Abnormal Reco are rarely used because they neither have an edge in scoring nor in survival.

[mesh control]

If the game is just luck then all you need to do is keep playing until you get lucky a whole lot of times in a row and win.

That's basically what I do anyway.

[TVG]

Upon failure, you reject the fault on the game instead of yourself and come up with bullshit about randomness and other stupid concepts, despite that you know all too well it's a matter of positionning, not randomness. Despite the fact many people on this board cleared the mode.

It's a flaw of character, not a flaw of the game. You need some effort, to learn a little bit of positioning instead of trying to rush trough impossible situations your lack of bullet herding has created.

But I suggest you stop playing these games altogether. Play some multiplayer team games, so you can blame failure on your teammates. Or those interactive movies that try to pass off as games.

[TVG]

The lack of a wide shot and his slow speed makes the game even harder. Whilst he does get rid of bosses quicker that's not a lot of help if you can't get through the stages with him.

One character making the stages easier and the other making the bosses easier? What a silly concept. Cave needs to stop putting those alien ideas in their shmups. The only differences between characters should be their lolidresses.

[NzzpNzzp]

Well, there might be a little skill in there too I guess.
But getting lucky certainly helps!

[DrTrouserPlank]

Well, there might be a little skill in there too I guess.
But getting lucky certainly helps!

I certainly does.

Fluked my way through the 3rd boss. Lost about 3 lives. Bombed all the undodgeable patterns, didn't do much for my score of course. I'll just have to find a way of factoring the loss of (at best) 3 lives on the 3rd boss into my run; which will be hard seeing as I won't get a 2nd repeat. Also not having any bombs left for all of stage 4 will make it even easier.

1 life to beat stages 1,2,4,5. That should be pretty easy.

[Paradigm]

If only Clover-TAC played the lottery...

[Thjodbjorn]

undodgeable patterns

*sigh* undodgeable, really?

[NzzpNzzp]

I certainly does.

So you just need to play long enough that you get one hell of a lucky run or build up enough skill that you don't need luck anymore.
Patience and discipline!

[Annoyboy]

1 life to beat stages 1,2,4,5. That should be pretty easy.

Well there is a 1-up in stage 5. :P But seriously, which of that bastard spider's patterns is giving you the most trouble?

[Udderdude]

undodgeable patterns

lern2play