OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

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BuckoA51
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Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler

Post by BuckoA51 »

Tried linetripled and linedoubled mode on NES and SNES.
Also the various Linetriple modes.
Can you try one more system, e.g Megadrive perhaps? SNES is known to be problematic.
Was it something related to digital audio output?
I'm aiming to have the digital audio upgrade board as an option for the second batch onwards and of course as an upgrade/mod for any OSSC.
I agree with some people here about creating separate threads to avoid this thread growing so much.
Maybe:
* Current thread for information about the hardware, sales and availability
* A separate thread for OSSC technical issues and testing
Would you guys prefer it if I just started a forum dedicated to OSSC and the other stuff I sell ? At least that way we can have a separate threads for different OSSC questions without hijacking the shmups board. I could do it fairly quickly with something like BBPress. I could handle technical support through that too, what do you think? Keen to hear Marqs thoughts on that too.
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Pasky
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Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler

Post by Pasky »

So then the board designs and BOM isn't available then?
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pyrotek85
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Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler

Post by pyrotek85 »

BuckoA51 wrote:Would you guys prefer it if I just started a forum dedicated to OSSC and the other stuff I sell ? At least that way we can have a separate threads for different OSSC questions without hijacking the shmups board. I could do it fairly quickly with something like BBPress. I could handle technical support through that too, what do you think? Keen to hear Marqs thoughts on that too.
That might be a good idea, at least for the sake of keeping up to date on availability, hardware revisions, etc. I wouldn't want to fragment discussions too much, but that kind of info will easily be buried here.
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marqs
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Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler

Post by marqs »

BuckoA51 wrote:Quote:
I agree with some people here about creating separate threads to avoid this thread growing so much.
Maybe:
* Current thread for information about the hardware, sales and availability
* A separate thread for OSSC technical issues and testing


Would you guys prefer it if I just started a forum dedicated to OSSC and the other stuff I sell ? At least that way we can have a separate threads for different OSSC questions without hijacking the shmups board. I could do it fairly quickly with something like BBPress. I could handle technical support through that too, what do you think? Keen to hear Marqs thoughts on that too.
That would help, yes. A separate thread for DIY kit availability & assembly would also be good.
Pasky wrote:So then the board designs and BOM isn't available then?
BOM is available along with other instructions, although it lacks Mouser links since so far all stuff has been included in the kit. The plan is to offer only PCB and special components in future kits to get them out faster. One thing I'm slighly worried about, is that several people have had issues during assembly. It's not an easy piece to put together manually, and I've tried my best to warn about that. Schematic and layout pics help in debugging issues, but if lots of new people start getting DIY kits, I'm not sure how to handle support anymore. A dedicated thread would be a good start, assuming that people are willing to post their issues there and help others. One-on-one e-mail support just won't scale.
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Pasky
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Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler

Post by Pasky »

marqs wrote:
BuckoA51 wrote:Quote:
I agree with some people here about creating separate threads to avoid this thread growing so much.
Maybe:
* Current thread for information about the hardware, sales and availability
* A separate thread for OSSC technical issues and testing


Would you guys prefer it if I just started a forum dedicated to OSSC and the other stuff I sell ? At least that way we can have a separate threads for different OSSC questions without hijacking the shmups board. I could do it fairly quickly with something like BBPress. I could handle technical support through that too, what do you think? Keen to hear Marqs thoughts on that too.
That would help, yes. A separate thread for DIY kit availability & assembly would also be good.
Pasky wrote:So then the board designs and BOM isn't available then?
BOM is available along with other instructions, although it lacks Mouser links since so far all stuff has been included in the kit. The plan is to offer only PCB and special components in future kits to get them out faster. One thing I'm slighly worried about, is that several people have had issues during assembly. It's not an easy piece to put together manually, and I've tried my best to warn about that. Schematic and layout pics help in debugging issues, but if lots of new people start getting DIY kits, I'm not sure how to handle support anymore. A dedicated thread would be a good start, assuming that people are willing to post their issues there and help others. One-on-one e-mail support just won't scale.
Thanks, whoever is in charge of the wiki should really think about linking these as they're kind of important...

EDIT:

Infact, it should probably be in the GIT repository. Are there no gerber files available for the PCB? The TOP/BOTTOM PNG's are not very useful as they don't even include traces etc.

Thanks again.
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BuckoA51
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Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler

Post by BuckoA51 »

That would help, yes. A separate thread for DIY kit availability & assembly would also be good.
I'll look into it asap then.
if lots of new people start getting DIY kits, I'm not sure how to handle support anymore. A dedicated thread would be a good start, assuming that people are willing to post their issues there and help others. One-on-one e-mail support just won't scale.
I think the only way you can really sell DIY is with the disclaimer that, while we'll help where we can, folks are basically on their own and should only take on the project if they're confident. We can't really give refunds if someone makes a botch of their DIY kit. This is perfectly reasonable IMO and well within EU law. Forum support works out much better than e-mail since people can help each other and also view issues other folks have encountered.
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paulb_nl
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Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler

Post by paulb_nl »

noko_bombette wrote:If I switch to 60 Hz, diagonal lines are less noticeable, but they are still there.
I think the cable from retrogamingcables is using sync on Luma.
If you are not sure if the cable is using Luma then you can connect it to your SCART input on your Sony TV and set the input to composite. If it displays in black and white in 50hz & 60hz then its Luma.

The PAL RGB cable is not suitable for your SNES mini. If you want to use it you have to mod it with capacitors. If you can open up the console plug of the other RGB cable then maybe you can change it to use Luma.
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NormalFish
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Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler

Post by NormalFish »

Thanks for the response re- line doubling 480p. Looking forward to it.
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xadox
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Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler

Post by xadox »

BuckoA51 wrote:
Tried linetripled and linedoubled mode on NES and SNES.
Also the various Linetriple modes.
Can you try one more system, e.g Megadrive perhaps? SNES is known to be problematic.
NES does the same effect. N64 ist working (somehow). MegaDrive shows no picture.
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blizzz
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Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler

Post by blizzz »

xadox, have you tried another screen, like a computer monitor?
kardus
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Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler

Post by kardus »

What are you guys using to convert back to vga for computer crts?
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BuckoA51
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Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler

Post by BuckoA51 »

NES does the same effect. N64 ist working (somehow). MegaDrive shows no picture.
Can you see the test card when you first power on OSSC? Your SNES might just be incompatible with the setup. On the Megadrive, try H-PLL coast pre 3 and post 3.
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marqs
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Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler

Post by marqs »

Pasky wrote:Infact, it should probably be in the GIT repository. Are there no gerber files available for the PCB? The TOP/BOTTOM PNG's are not very useful as they don't even include traces etc.
I've tried to avoid cluttering Git repo with static stuff like pictures etc. but I can at least add appropiate links on the main README/description page. TOP/BOTTOM PNGs are mainly for checking labels (some may be overlap with holes and thus are hard to read on actual pcb) - I'll be adding another set which displays the traces to ease troubleshooting, but for now no full gerber files (I doubt they'd be any more help unless someone decides to start mass-manufacturing 1:1 copies).
xadox wrote:NES does the same effect. N64 ist working (somehow). MegaDrive shows no picture.
NES and SNES both have the issue of uneven scanline length but strangely, nobody has reported problems with NESRGB until now. Getting no picture from MegaDrive indicates that there's something weird - did you get a chance to test another monitor?
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Pasky
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Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler

Post by Pasky »

marqs wrote:I've tried to avoid cluttering Git repo with static stuff like pictures etc. but I can at least add appropiate links on the main README/description page. TOP/BOTTOM PNGs are mainly for checking labels (some may be overlap with holes and thus are hard to read on actual pcb) - I'll be adding another set which displays the traces to ease troubleshooting, but for now no full gerber files (I doubt they'd be any more help unless someone decides to start mass-manufacturing 1:1 copies).
I'm not interested in the gerber files to trouble shoot, but to produce one if I ever feel the need.

If you're holding out on the PCB design because you'd like to make some money off of your creation that's fine and I'm not saying you're wrong for doing so or anything of that nature, but if that's the case just say so.

Otherwise, I don't understand why the PCB files are not available the same way they are for the SD2SNES (which are included in the SD2SNES GIT repository). That's what I'm curious about, it'd be nice not having to wait for someone to stock a DIY kit if I ever decide to make one of these myself.

Thanks.
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Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler

Post by RGB0b »

kardus wrote:What are you guys using to convert back to vga for computer crts?
http://www.amazon.com/Portta-PETHV-conv ... B003O55U8K
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marqs
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Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler

Post by marqs »

Pasky wrote:I'm not interested in the gerber files to trouble shoot, but to produce one if I ever feel the need.
I wouldn't mind if somebody produces a PCB and gets all parts him/herself - I just don't think that's practical since you'd need to get parts from like 5 different places and most likely end up paying more than for a pre-assembled board.
Pasky wrote:If you're holding out on the PCB design because you'd like to make some money off of your creation that's fine and I'm not saying you're wrong for doing so or anything of that nature, but if that's the case just say so.
For me DIY kits are low risk, low profit method to make the design available - even less so after I soon cease personally selling those. However, for the online store(s) that start offering these kits, things may be a bit different and they might not like the prospect that somebody else can just pop up and start selling identical kits. That's why I've been a bit careful about publishing full gerber / case design files so far.
lui
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Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler

Post by lui »

marqs wrote:.
Marqs, what type of IC would be required to have an OSD with the OSSC?
I'm presuming something along the lines of http://pdf1.alldatasheet.com/datasheet- ... 90096.html

Image
Last edited by lui on Sun Jun 05, 2016 4:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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eric90000
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Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler

Post by eric90000 »

Hey guys, I am sorry to be an ignorant new guy here, please excuse me...does anyone know if/when the OSSC is for sale? I've been looking online but can't find a definite answer. I know http://www.videogameperfection.com are the sellers and I have signed up to the newsletter and telegram group but so far I haven't been able to find out much info on availability.

Thanks :o
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NormalFish
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Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler

Post by NormalFish »

Apologize if this is something that has been asked recently but I've been trying to keep up and haven't seen much in the way of confirmation:

What's the concensus on how nicely 1080p60 computer monitors play with the OSSC?

All these display incompatibilities are running together in my head and I can't quite make sense of it all. Google doc doesn't seem to have any reports from ASUS monitors (which I currently have), nor have I ever tried my monitor with a raw linedoubler, so I'm a bit at a loss at how to approach this.
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Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler

Post by Joelepain »

NormalFish wrote:Apologize if this is something that has been asked recently but I've been trying to keep up and haven't seen much in the way of confirmation:

What's the concensus on how nicely 1080p60 computer monitors play with the OSSC?

All these display incompatibilities are running together in my head and I can't quite make sense of it all. Google doc doesn't seem to have any reports from ASUS monitors (which I currently have), nor have I ever tried my monitor with a raw linedoubler, so I'm a bit at a loss at how to approach this.
I have received my OSSC this week and I have an Asus PA238Q PC monitor.
I wanted to write a small feedback from my first tests of the OSSC with a gamecube and a n64 and a vp50pro, but I haven't had time to do it yet. I'll try to do it as soon as I can.
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Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler

Post by Blair »

ZellSF wrote:I'm conflicted. Dithering looks very bad, but so does the false positives (look at the crosses in the gui on the Mario World shot) and the blurriness dedithering causes. I'm somehow guessing the OSSC won't do it anyway (would be nice though).
most of the graphic glitches can be eliminated with error correction (the crosses look fine), (I just always forget to turn it on). you can adjust the blur effect for transparency. but I like it this way for most games with water or glass effects.

Image

BuckoA51 wrote:De-Dither is quite clever, but does anyone really want HQ2X Scale 2X Scale 3X type effects? You might as well just go play an emulator.
No, I was just throwing that idea out as a possibility if it was an easy thing to implement (personally I don't think HQ 4x looks that bad on NES), I would never really use those filters. but I would love a De-Dither option for original hardware on the OSSC. but since marqs did not address it i'm going to assume he (and most users here) would be against it. that's ok (I can still enjoy it with my DVDO's and CRT's)

As an american gamer who grew up with Composite and RF cables, I vividly remember the transparency and blending effects from these games, so when I play them in RGB it always looks a little Jarring when I notice a "broken" effect. but I love the sharpness and richness of RGB so I will never go back to composit (I always hated dot crawl). for people like me De-Dither gives me that nostalgic feel of playing my old games how I remember them (they technically look better than that, lol).

i'll drop it after this post, just wanted to bring attention to the Idea (just in case anyone felt the same way) (here's a quick example without scanlines)

-De-Dither off-

Image

-De-Dither on-

Image
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Pasky
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Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler

Post by Pasky »

Marqs wrote:For me DIY kits are low risk, low profit method to make the design available - even less so after I soon cease personally selling those. However, for the online store(s) that start offering these kits, things may be a bit different and they might not like the prospect that somebody else can just pop up and start selling identical kits. That's why I've been a bit careful about publishing full gerber / case design files so far.
Okay, I mean that's fine but that still makes no sense to me. Here's an open source design, everyone can use it, but only those currently selling them have access to the current PCB design in fear that others may produce them (kind of the point of DIY isn't it?), it's what made things like the Arduino successful yet still profitable because anyone can produce them... It just seems strange to me. I mean sure, anyone is allowed to make their own PCB design since you were kind enough to provide the schematics etc... Your reasoning behind keeping the PCB files private is just odd and only allowing a select few to have access is a bit against the idea of open source, but I respect your decision although it's confusing.
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Blair
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Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler

Post by Blair »

Das Muel wrote:Here's what I'm getting with linetriple on my pc crt:
Das Muel wrote:Zoom in a bit and ignore the difference in saturation. Double looks best to my eye.

After seeing your screenshots, I agree with you Das Muel, line-double mode does look better. the thin wispy scanlines in line-triple mode look practically blasphemous.

does this mean that the OSSC suffers from the same problems as the High-DEF NES? half pixel high scanlines? if so that's very disappointing.

can the width of the scanlines not be adjusted?
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BuckoA51
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Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler

Post by BuckoA51 »

If you prefer line double just use line double. I personally think line triple with scanlines looks great on an LCD.
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Blair
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Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler

Post by Blair »

BuckoA51 wrote:If you prefer line double just use line double. I personally think line triple with scanlines looks great on an LCD.
Eh, line triple is one of the big selling points though. and if I'm going to hook it up to any of my DVDO's that would be the mode I'd prefer. authentic scanlines (the picture information, not the blank lines) should always be 2 pixels high for 240p content. (see the previous screenshot I just posted)

taste is subjective on this I know, (and I'm sure most people prefer no scanlines at all). we can respect each other's preferences on this.

again, my question is "can they be adjusted" ?

if not right now, will that be in a future firmware update?

proper scanlines in line-triple mode is a make or break feature for me, and I'm sure it would be for others. (I haven't seen this discussed anywhere else, ).
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Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler

Post by Fudoh »

Das Muel's screenshots were taken off a CRT. The 1:2 scanline pattern on the 720p signal is totally fine when using a LCD. By rescaling the image from 720p to 1080p (or some other resolution), the scanlines look much more pronounced. The Framemeister uses the same pattern when set to 720p output.

What did you have in mind ? A 2:1 pattern instead ?
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Blair
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Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler

Post by Blair »

Fudoh wrote:Das Muel's screenshots were taken off a CRT. The 1:2 scanline pattern on the 720p signal is totally fine when using a LCD. By rescaling the image from 720p to 1080p (or some other resolution), the scanlines look much more pronounced. The Framemeister uses the same pattern when set to 720p output.

What did you have in mind ? A 2:1 pattern instead ?
I'm not sure that makes sense, is the OSSC actually up-scaling with proper integers?
Fudoh wrote:The Framemeister uses the same pattern when set to 720p output.
I had always read that the scanlines produced in 1080p were the weak point of the Framemeister, are you saying there is a difference between its 480p and 720p scanline thickness as well?

it shouldn't really make a difference if its a CRT or an LCD
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marqs
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Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler

Post by marqs »

Blair wrote:does this mean that the OSSC suffers from the same problems as the high DEF NES? half pixel high scanlines? if so that's very disappointing.

can the width of the scanlines not be adjusted?
In linetriple, one source scanline becomes 3 output scanlines, and you can darken either one or two out of those (current implementation uses one). It's possible to somewhat compensate by tweaking "dark" scanline intensity, but perfect 50:50 pattern is impossible with linetriple.
Pasky wrote:Okay, I mean that's fine but that still makes no sense to me. Here's an open source design, everyone can use it, but only those currently selling them have access to the current PCB design in fear that others may produce them (kind of the point of DIY isn't it?), it's what made things like the Arduino successful yet still profitable because anyone can produce them... It just seems silly to me. I mean sure anyone is allowed to make their own pcb design since you were kind enough to provide the schematics etc... Your reasoning behind keeping the PCB files private is just odd, but I respect your decision although confusing.
Yes, I understand your point. I originally said that this arrangement is for the moment, so it can definitely change for more open design on the PCB side as well.
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marqs
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Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler

Post by marqs »

Updated wikipage with link to DIY kit instructions and added fw changelog and roadmap.
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Blair
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Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler

Post by Blair »

marqs wrote:In linetriple, one source scanline becomes 3 output scanlines, and you can darken either one or two out of those (current implementation uses one). It's possible to somewhat compensate by tweaking "dark" scanline intensity, but perfect 50:50 pattern is impossible with linetriple.
I see, that's a bit disappointing. (no offense meant to you marqs), once I get a hold of the unit myself i'll have to do some testing to see if I can adjust it to my liking.

would it be possible to fix this "flaw" with upgraded hardware and higher line output modes? (line-quadruple?)
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