Fudoh's ode to old display technology

[ffm_1975]

After years of silent reading (from time to time), and years after I dealt with the idea of getting me a BVM20F1 as well - I finally went for it today. That's the (hopefully) beauty with just 25000 hours I won today on Ebay, at a quite reasonable prize: http://www.ebay.de/itm/Sony-Monitor-BVM ... 7675.l2557
I hope it's ok to link an Ebay-page, I do it for the fotos listed there, since I guess they are really helpful for someone who is into the topic. For me, not into it (yet), they served as a proof that the seller at least had nothing to hide.
(if it's ok to post an Ebay-link, please delete it, and I'll try to make the pictures accessible in another way)

Two questions, many more might follow, since I'm not especially into technical matters, at least not yet..
1) From the pictures, is there anything I should take care of/ ask for when picking up the BVM one of these days? Are convergence etc ok (I guess you experienced can tell straight by the test patterns of the channels 95-98)? Is it any problem that the software version seems quite dated (Ver 1.31)?
2) The seller told me to bring a source along, since they only have SDI at hand. I guess I'll opt for a SNES, plus - and now the questions start - 'simply' my PVM 2950-setup, consisting of a RGB-cable, a SyncStrike and a Scart-BNC-cable? Or do I need something on top? How to connect exactly - is it the same way the PVM is connected? Something to take care of not to hurt the beauty?

I'd be very thankful for first hints & help! In the meantime I start to REALLY study the 49 pages ahead...

[Taiyaki]

I believe the software makes no difference except maybe what generation boards it can take. I think it was also to add compatibility with those devices ISR calibrators use for calibrating but I could be wrong.

[Fudoh]

nice price for a good looking unit!

I personally wouldn't bother bringing a source. And if you do, try to make it a component one - easier to connect, also the standard setting in the menus for all inputs is component and RGB would require you to reconfigure the inputs first.

[ffm_1975]

Thanks for quick first help! And yes, I was happy the prize didn't touch the €150-mark, and honestly released it stayed faaar away from my maximum bid of (slightly) €200+ (realizing I spend most of my gaming time in front of my 20" yoko, which has been a KV20X5D til date, I really honestly wanted an upgrade finally, and the re-lecture of this thread set me on fire, again. This time it simply needed to be..). Plus it's easy pick up, just ten mins by car from my home. Feels like jackpot til here - I'm really excited to see the picture 'in real life' soon!

Since all my consoles are RGB (except the DC VGA) with the Cube the latest - RGB as well due to the prizes of according Component cables - I'll stick with your advice, Fudoh, and skip the sources-test-section. If the guy shows me SDI works just fine, will be the same with RGB, no?
On that occasion: Will the BKM-20D SDI 4:2:2 Decoder Adaptor be of any use for me? Actually: what is the use of this Adaptor, if the monitor is bound to 15kHz solely - in case you just want to run the 240p-likes as SNES/MD to GC/DC (via RGB, not VGA)? Or is it for Video-working only?

Besides: the setup of console (in this case: MD/Saturn/SNES/N64/GBA via Cube) ->RGB-Scart->SyncStrike->Scart-BNC-cable is in general exactly the same with the BVM as with my PVM 2950, I guess?! The named consoles/cables I use don't sync all with the PVM, so it's probably about time to order a second SyncStrike now..

[Fudoh]

If the guy shows me SDI works just fine, will be the same with RGB, no?

not 100% (since SDI uses another input board), but as long as the monitor shows a picture with the internal patterns, I wouldn't worry about the rest.

On that occasion: Will the BKM-20D SDI 4:2:2 Decoder Adaptor be of any use for me?

you can use it as an additional Component input. Playstation 2, XBox, Cube, Wii or something along these lines.

Actually: what is the use of this Adaptor, if the monitor is bound to 15kHz solely - in case you just want to run the 240p-likes as SNES/MD to GC/DC (via RGB, not VGA)? Or is it for Video-working only?

for the previous owner ? Obviously to add SDI inputs for a PC based capture card.

The named consoles/cables I use don't sync all with the PVM, so it's probably about time to order a second SyncStrike now..

on the BVM you don't need a sync strike, you just need a breakout cable (Scart to BNC), but since you only get one RGBs input, you're better off using a scart switch anyway.

[darcagn]

I bought a Sony BVM-14G5U and it just came in today. It looks fantastic, but the big thing is how silky smooth the gameplay is. It's been a long time since I've played on a CRT. I played on the Framemeister right after and felt lag that I never felt before. After playing for a good 5 minutes though I adjusted and couldn't tell anymore.

I've only ever seen shadow mask CRTs with composite connections, so seeing a beautiful monitor like the BVM fed crystal clear RGB has given me quite a new appreciation for CRT technology and what it's capable of. I'd love to have a large BVM/PVM for classic gaming, but I don't really have a great place to set that up. I think if I ever were to purchase another CRT, it would be for an arcade cabinet or something. The Framemeister is awesome enough anyway.

I plan on keeping this baby at my workbench for testing stuff, but I also wanted it to play light gun games and the occasional 240p/480i swapping games that the Framemeister can't handle.

Anyway, does anyone know where I could get a manual for this thing? I'd love to be able to read up on all of the functionality. Google doesn't seem to be turning up anything other than a few sites trying to sell the PDF, but that sounds shady as hell and the websites look like it too. I don't mind paying the $5-$10 but I also don't want to contribute to some weird sketchy website.

[mihilux]

I bought a Sony BVM-14G5U and it just came in today. It looks fantastic, but the big thing is how silky smooth the gameplay is. It's been a long time since I've played on a CRT. I played on the Framemeister right after and felt lag that I never felt before. After playing for a good 5 minutes though I adjusted and couldn't tell anymore.

Nice, exactly the very same model as mine . It has beem 3 weeks with this wonderfull scanlineye candy and I'm loving it, just cant wait for all the SCART cables to arrive in order to enjoy raw RGB with mine

Anyway, does anyone know where I could get a manual for this thing? I'd love to be able to read up on all of the functionality. Google doesn't seem to be turning up anything other than a few sites trying to sell the PDF, but that sounds shady as hell and the websites look like it too. I don't mind paying the $5-$10 but I also don't want to contribute to some weird sketchy website.

I've found some booklets and operations manuals, I hope it helps, there is a lot of settings in this monitors.

http://www.pmotions.com/Public/PDFs/SONY/bksr-3206.pdf <<<scroll to page 199 for the 14G5U

http://www.bcs.tv/pdf/model/21838/bvmgseries.pdf

My baby

[darcagn]

Nice, exactly the very same model as mine . It has beem 3 weeks with this wonderfull scanlineye candy and I'm loving it, just cant wait for all the SCART cables to arrive in order to enjoy raw RGB with mine

It's very beautiful. It is very deep though, takes up a lot of space on the workbench. I need to get another table for it to place it on the side.

I've found some booklets and operations manuals, I hope it helps, there is a lot of settings in this monitors.

I ended up buying the manual from one of the sites that took Paypal. It was only a few bucks, and the site was legit, so no big deal. here it is, and it covers the following monitors:

BVM-14G1A/14G1E/14G1U
BVM-14G5A/14G5E/14G5U
BVM-20G1A/20G1E/20G1U

as well as the BKM-10R control unit.

[withalligators]

Happened upon this while researching the PDP-V402. I picked up 2 of these out of a Tandberg Dual video conferencing setup with the hopes of setting up a MAME cab with one of them, and saving the second as a spare. The info you give is actually the best I've seen dealing with these rare sets. I'm still learning MAME, the eight gajillion variations of it, and having a heck of a time setting up anything with integral scaling. For instance, If the game I want to play isn't divisible directly into 640 x 480, there will be some antialiasing and scaling (or in the case of this plasma, dithering and flicker). So far, no luck. And on a resolution this small, that little bit of stretch is ugly as heck.

Have you fiddled with the menu settings at all to get a 1:1 image?

I'm going to build a rig with probably an i5 4670, a decent gpu (maybe a 7850) for Demul/NullDC, etc.
Do you have any advice here?

Cheers!

[Ed Oscuro]

For future reference, I am quite sure the BVM G series manuals (any one you could want) are freely available online.

[Fudoh]

For instance, If the game I want to play isn't divisible directly into 640 x 480, there will be some antialiasing and scaling (or in the case of this plasma, dithering and flicker). So far, no luck. And on a resolution this small, that little bit of stretch is ugly as heck.

that's because you allow MAME (and other emus) to scale the image to 640x480 fullscreen resolution. That doesn't work very well. You need to limit your emus to linedoubling. In MAME you can achieve this by disabling D3D and running MAME on DirectDraw instead. This way you get a 1:2 line mapping and a 1:1 mapping on the Pioneer - at least on the vertical. Games with 224p resolution, for example, will be doubled to 448 lines this way and the rest of the vertical will be padded with black. On the horizontal you won't get 1:1 anyway, not unless you use a rom actually using 320 pixels in width. But don't worry about that. The line mapping is important, horizontal pixel mapping isn't (as much).

I'm going to build a rig with probably an i5 4670, a decent gpu (maybe a 7850) for Demul/NullDC, etc.
Do you have any advice here?

For MAME, especially without the use of D3D, you don't need a strong GPU. CPU is everything. No experienve with Naomi/DC emulation, sorry.

[withalligators]

From what I've read, The higher end emu stuff like Naomi/DC/GC/Wii emu stuff all rely on a good DX11 GPU to render frames and are "cheating" in the sense that they aren't doing pure CPU emulation. I just got laid off for an injury for a few days, so I will go play with those settings right now. Which version of MAME do you suggest?
Thanks Fudoh!
Alex

[Fudoh]

Which version of MAME do you suggest?

it really shouldn't matter. At least not in regard to the video output options you're looking for.

[darcagn]

For future reference, I am quite sure the BVM G series manuals (any one you could want) are freely available online.

I couldn't find them anywhere, for free at least...

[withalligators]

Holy Moly. I played with a bunch of settings, and while I was doubtful before, this thing is now looking amazing. First thing I did was play with the CLK PHS settings in the monitor's menu. Adjusting it up or down 40 or so points got rid of all the dancing pixels so at least when fed a pure 480 image it looks good. Next I created a mame.ini file in mame64 and played with those settings. I turned D3D to DDRAW, changed PRESCALE to 2, MAXIMIZE to 0, and, most importantly, HWSTRETCH to 0. Super Crisp, pixel perfect images now.
The only rom I have on there (for testing) is the simpsons arcade, and I get some tearing, so I changed WAITVSYNC to 1, but now it just freezes for a frame or so when it would have torn earlier. I'm sure this can be figured out with better hardware and playing with more settings.
I'm just playing around on an old C2D laptop with powerstrip on it, but I'm psyched now. I'm going to go ahead and start building a cab around this thing. Thanks for pointing me in the right direction Fudoh!
One more question. A VGA hookup is fine here right? Or do I need a breakaway cable to go in through RGB to access all the other refresh rates like 15 and 31?

Cheers!

[Fudoh]

straight VGA is fine. You should be able to get rid of all tearing and stutter. "Wait for monitor refresh" is one possible option. It matches the game speed to your actual monitor refresh. Using a MAMEUI version makes it usually easier to try all the video options.

[Ed Oscuro]

Edit: Since we're on the subject of manual sources, here's the BVM E/F series manual (Operations Manual, not Operations and Maintenance!) again:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0dPM_ ... sp=sharing

For future reference, I am quite sure the BVM G series manuals (any one you could want) are freely available online.

I couldn't find them anywhere, for free at least...

Ah, nevermind my silly comments. I realized that Grumly asked earlier in May for the same manual, and it's only now available thanks to you. Thanks!

I would like to find the service manual of BVM 20G1 series in PDF, anyone ?
thank you

This is a new enough line that it does make sense that people don't have tons of copies. I have seen (and kept) some other literature from Sony which describes the line's general features (advertising stuff) but the regular manual is nice, so thanks for sharing that!

So we can at least chalk one manual off the list of to-pay for. It's shameless...people want $25 for a copy of something that Sony provides? Jeezus.

I wonder though - what would the price of going to Sony for the manuals be?

[darcagn]

people want $25 for a copy of something that Sony provides? Jeezus.

The guy I got it from was only charging $5, which seemed like low enough to not get too upset about paying. I still don't think I should have to pay for the manual, but there are worse things to complain about, I guess, and now that I've put it up for download hopefully I'll be the last around here to have to do so.

[Traveller]

Hey. I got a follow up question about setting up my PVM screen. I was posting in the test suite thread, but this is now more directly related to the PVM itself.

http://i.imgur.com/ys70Fdu.jpg

Check the pic, I have attempted to eliminate the overscan area. Although it seems I can't go much further without the screen going wonky. I didn't have a ton of time to fiddle, it may be fine like this, I am just wondering if it's possible.

The horizontal setting is around 225 or so at the moment. I also can't see a difference in the grid when switching between 240p and 480i.

Thanks for any advice.

[rtw]

I just got an SLPH-00016 (Waka Up Scan Converter). However I can't get it working properly on my PAL console, with PAL games the screen rolls, however if I use Gradius V and select 60Hz I get a stable picture but there is some still some tearing.

Can someone confirm that the SLPH-00016 only works on NTSC ?

[Fudoh]

Can someone confirm that the SLPH-00016 only works on NTSC ?

basically yes. When I did my review I did a quick check with a PAL PS2 as well. Most NTSC PS2 games seemed to be working this way, but since PS1 games no longer worked at all, I dismissed the option.

[rtw]

Can someone confirm that the SLPH-00016 only works on NTSC ?

basically yes. When I did my review I did a quick check with a PAL PS2 as well. Most NTSC PS2 games seemed to be working this way, but since PS1 games no longer worked at all, I dismissed the option.

Thank you for clearing this up, need to get a NTSC PS2 then!

[mihilux]

Hey. I got a follow up question about setting up my PVM screen. I was posting in the test suite thread, but this is now more directly related to the PVM itself.

http://i.imgur.com/ys70Fdu.jpg

Check the pic, I have attempted to eliminate the overscan area. Although it seems I can't go much further without the screen going wonky. I didn't have a ton of time to fiddle, it may be fine like this, I am just wondering if it's possible.

The horizontal setting is around 225 or so at the moment. I also can't see a difference in the grid when switching between 240p and 480i.

Thanks for any advice.

You have a nice n64 controller , I can also see a Wii and some cartridges, have you tried to factory reset it and starts setting up from zero?

[Traveller]

No I have not tried a full reset.

I have actually made progress, I have setup the normal 60hz input to be fully cropping any overscan that some games display. I have then gone into the 16:9 mode and altered it so that it is a little less tall vertically for the games that have a larger viewable area (I can't change the horizontal as its shared across most inputs).

Then I went into the normal underscan mode and set it to display the full image. The only downside is that I cannot extend the horizontal right to the edges without it distorting, otherwise it would be perfect. As it is, there is a tiny bit of black on either side.

[TheShadowRunner]

If I find the time, I could try to do a little "how to get geometry & convergence right" tutorial sometime.

Oh man, I would seriously appreciate something like that right now.
I spent another couple of hours on it, after getting the 240p test suite to work through my wii I got linearity seemingly better, but I still have the "bump" on the left hand side of the image, as if it's rolling over a finger or something about a fifth of the way in. I'm a little concerned because I have absolutely no idea what I should be trying to do to sort it. Even then though, I don't know when I should be modifying very linearity to pull the circle up, or h linearity to squash the sides in to get it circular. A guide from someone who knows what they're doing would be massively appreciated.

+9000!
I'm in the same boat as you guys, having just put my hands on a 20F1E after searching for quite a long time. And by default the amount of underscan is massive even in 4:3-NORM mode.
What troubles me is that when i don't touch anything to Alignement, geometry is pretty much perfect (but again with massive underscan), but when I alter "H-SIZE" and "V-SIZE to fill the screen and defeat the underscan, the test grids become very deformed on the sides (bent lines) and geometry gets fuxxed :S
It seems as soon as touching a single setting in Alignement, everything else is gets off.
I have reverted every setting to what they originally were for now, but yeah, massive underscan ^^;

[Hatirus]

Anyone could tell me where I could find good online stores that sells retro tvs? I've been looking for a PDP-V402 for months.

Btw, these are the pics about the 480p plasma I got weeks ago.

[RGB32E]

Anyone could tell me where I could find good online stores that sells retro tvs? I've been looking for a PDP-V402 for months.

Btw, these are the pics about the 480p plasma I got weeks ago.

Care to share some pictures of what games look like on this TV in a darkened room? Things like the Wii menu, a few different games? Thanks!

I'm willing to take a leap and say that your Samsung has much better color, tighter pixel pitch, black level, and contrast than the PDP-V402. Only downsides are a smaller 4:3 picture and no RGB inputs. What is the exact model number?

Most of the PDP-V402 models found are from private sellers or in thrift shops.

[Fudoh]

In some countries there's also a 51" 480p version of that screen. Over here neither nor.....

[Hatirus]

In some countries there's also a 51" 480p version of that screen. Over here neither nor.....

There is also here and I posted some links in the 49th page, I think - but I don't think it looks that good, first because of the res (1024x480) and it's so big it'll look pixelated. I bought the 43" and it looks gorgeous.

Care to share some pictures of what games look like on this TV in a darkened room? Things like the Wii menu, a few different games? Thanks!

I'm willing to take a leap and say that your Samsung has much better color, tighter pixel pitch, black level, and contrast than the PDP-V402. Only downsides are a smaller 4:3 picture and no RGB inputs. What is the exact model number?

Most of the PDP-V402 models found are from private sellers or in thrift shops.

Sure, I'll post some pics of Wii games, Original Xbox games, Gamecube games (I have the component cable for it), I'll get a VGA to Component to test my Dreamcast and so on. I bought this tv mainly for the 6th gen consoles and Wii as they are native 480p and it fits perfectly to the Plasma, but I tested some 4/5th gen consoles i.e. N64 with Pokémon Stadium and it does look okay, I guess? Granted, I was using AV cables and I don't have yet S-video (but the plasma doesn't support s-video, so it's a problem anyway)

Also being 16:9 it's a problem for me, even if you stretch to 4:3, gray borders will appear and they look not good. Color sure looks awesome and it's a good tv overall, but I'd recommend this tv only for 6th gen consoles and Wii (PSP with component cables too)

Model number is: PL43E400U1GXZD

I found a guy selling a PDP-V402EA in Germany at kinda of "local ebay" but I doubt he'd sell overseas to me.

Cheers from Brazil!

[22point8]

Hey I've got a 1024x768 F4900 plasma, look at the contrast ratio 5153:1 ANSI/ 14554:1 ON/OFF:




If you go to system/screen burn protection/side grey change it to 'dark'. If AVS Forum wasn't down right now I'd send you my calibrated PAL Component settings.