Questions that do not deserve a thread

[LordHypnos]

Here's a question: Is there a good way to test if my monitor is properly seeing my Dreamcast's VGA signal as 720x480 instead of 640x480? It looks fine to me, but I would like to know if it's doing it right just out of curiosity, if nothing else. I have a copy of the 240p test suite, if that helps (though I don't actually think it's up to date)

[Ed Oscuro]

The VGA mode is 640x480...can it be otherwise? I'd like to know if it outputs a different (widescreen) resolution for 480p across other connections - I thought all the EDTV era systems did a ~1.3 pixel aspect ratio for 640x480.

[LordHypnos]

The VGA mode is 640x480...can it be otherwise? I'd like to know if it outputs a different (widescreen) resolution for 480p across other connections - I thought all the EDTV era systems did a ~1.3 pixel aspect ratio for 640x480.

Oh man, this stuff is so confusing to me. I have heard that sixth gen consoles all output the NTSC broadcast standard 480p and that that is 720x480 (squished to a 4:3 screen). I think widescreen would be something more like 848x480 (or perhaps that weird Plasma TV standard number 853x480 (?)). I have heard that a few DC games support widescreen, though. Any clarifications on any of these points would be appreciated.

FWIW, Mars Matrix gives the upper limit that you can stretch the game to as 640x480 rather than 720x480.

[Artemio]

The Dreamcast seems to only output 640x480p in VGA no matter what settings are changed. Here is a thread of someone that attempted it before I did: http://dcemulation.org/phpBB/viewtopic. ... 3&start=20

But in a nutshell, DC games that support widescreen did so by rendering a compressed image in a 640x480 buffer and let the Tv stretch the resulting image.

[Ed Oscuro]

Matching actual resolution specs precisely has only mattered since the introduction of fixed-resolution panels. The NTSC spec for 480p supports a semi-widescreen resolution, but to get a display you don't have to meet that precisely. Slight changes in the horizontal resolution will only manifest as changes in the aspect ratio of individual pixels. Given that the vast majority of users had 4:3 tubes, and given the propensity to go with more typical looking pixels, going with the 720x480 resolution (leading to rather excessively squashed-looking pixels) doesn't seem like it would have made much sense.

On top of that, I'm not sure many consumer tubes (even HD ones) can resolve anywhere near that resolution.

Edit: Artemio explained how a simple hack allows anamorphic widescreen. The benefit is that 4:3 content rendering is untouched, for the vast majority of people who used it, while widescreen rendering should use no more pixel fill rate, which was at a premium in the graphics chips of those times.

[LordHypnos]

Okay, then I'm not worried at all, thanks for the help, guys I'm sure a PC monitor should have no trouble with 640x480

Bit of a tangent, but I've been thinking a bit about how you can stretch pixels on CRT displays, recently. Seems like one of the advantages, really. For example, I typically run Mars Matrix in 612x448 resolution, because that allows me to maintain the 4:3 aspect ratio that the game is designed for (It feels pretty off at the native 12:7 aspect ratio, btw ), but minimize artifacts because 448 is exactly twice the native 224 vertical pixels. Because I'm using a CRT monitor with decent geometry controls (PC monitor), I can stretch that to fill the whole (4:3) screen, even though 4:3 is only approximated by 612x448.

If anyone knows why Capcom decided to make the CPS2 hardware games have a native resolution of 384x224 that is supposed to get squished into 4:3, BTW, I'm dying to know!

[Ed Oscuro]

Don't think about "native" aspect ratios or "native" pixels for CRT monitors. Problem solved. On any CRT, you either get the resolution or you don't. A good multisync monitor does this easily - PC monitors are different in this regard. Of course, when you use an upscaler - CRT or LCD doesn't matter here - these pixel proportions could matter for clean scaling, as you say. Don't know too much about that.

CPS2 has that resolution because the CPS does. It's probably as simple as that it has good detail (better than the Neo Geo in this regard). There are some hardware costs associated with a larger resolution, but none of them seem relevant to the aspect ratio per se - so long as there's enough power to push the extra pixels, and the artists can deal with it, why not use it?

[LordHypnos]

Yeah, I mean I figure only certain resolutions are supported by the monitor, but maybe that's incorrect. Maybe it can literally display any number of lines between 480 and 1024 (Not sure why it would have that lower limit, except that all PC monitors seem to, and I can tell that the DC is linedoubling 240p games). I just don't really know the ins and outs of the limitations of PC CRT monitors, I guess. I do know that the screen gets kind of blurry at 1280x1024 resolution though, so I usually run XGA with my computer. Kind of wish my graphics card was more flexible and allowed me to try out weird stuff like 1280x960 (which is actually just 4:3 aspect ratio, but I think it would be nice for MAME, because 240p stuff would be exactly quadrupled, and the graphics card, while it supports 640x480 doesn't let me set the resolution to that, and I don't think there's a way to do that in MAME, as far as I can tell, either. MAME seems to always run in whatever resolution the screen is set to, and just upscale to fullscreen. Not that I really notice whatever artifacts may exist though.) Anyway, this is getting really far off on a tangent, so I should probably stop

384x224 still seems pretty random, but yeah, I suppose it doesn't really matter what the aspect ratio is when you're dealing with CRT monitors, so, weird shaped pixels aside, there's probably not really a drawback to 12:7 squished to 3:4 on an arcade monitor.

[Ed Oscuro]

That PC VGA monitors have had (relatively, to consumer TVs) perfect geometry and very good resolutions and colors - but often only support a variety of standards - has baffled me for a long time. Perhaps the answers are quality controls (to the first part) and ease of autodetection (to the second). I've heard some tales about people getting higher vertical resolutions out of even consumer CRTs by fiddling with the circuitry a bit - quite possibly if one could bypass the autodetection circuits in a monitor, you'd be able to deal with a native multisync monitor.

If there is a hard limit to the flexibility of a PC VGA monitor, it's probably based around the voltages generated by the flyback transformer. Perhaps it can't generate them at a low enough level for SD resolutions!

[bobrocks95]

I was kind of curious about the whole 720x480p thing too. I believe the Wii outputs at that resolution, which may hinder my plans to hook my Wii U into my plasma via HDMI and play Wii games that way, since I believe the pixel aspect would look weird? 720x480 is 3:2 I believe, which has just been confusing for me.

[Artemio]

Regarding arcade resolutions, keep in mind that in arcade monitors you simply adjust the crt to fill the screen, respecting the geometry of the pattern if available and you are fine.

Each game used is own unique hardware, until platforms as Neo Geo and cps arrived.

You can get away with a setting that looks good for most stuff, but in reality you always re adjust after changing each game.

[Xyga]

Been planning to buy a new monitor for a while. I like to take my time to select a product that will fit my requirements, and over the months I've finally reduced my choice to two models.

Iiyama XB2783HSU-B1 (AMVA+)
Samsung S27D590P (AD-PLS)

The Iiyama is overall the superior monitor in many aspects, almost undoubtedly the best 1080p60Hz monitor available at the moment.
However... there is one last point that might make me sway in the direction of the Samsung: the quality of upscaling/interpolation of lower resolutions.
Here's what we can see on Prad.de;

Iiyama 1280x720

Samsung 1280x720


Considering I'm going to use several linedoublers/scalers outputting 480p/720p, will this make a noticeable difference ?
I also like to use my Xbox 360 at 720p (frankly speaking on my W6 it looks better than 1080p)

[Fudoh]

Some of the scaling examples on prad look terrible. On the other hand, I've seen digicam snapshots of monitors running with a XRGB which looks great, while the scaling examples on prad (for the same monitor) looked totally off.

[Fudoh]

DC does output a 720x480p signal, but the active gaming area is limited to 640x480p within. Only the white splashscreen up front uses the wider resolution.

The problem with that is that a) that both resolutions are technically 4:3, so all DC games will display a little too narrow on digital displays and b) all VGA inputs on LCDs only sample the input by VESA specs, meaning that the 720x480p gets sampled in 640x480p. If you have a 1-pixel checkerboard pattern (e.g. the power bars on the bottom in Guilty Gear X), VGA inputs on LCDs won't properly resolve this.

VGA to HDMI converters won't help either, but VGA to component transcoders will, since the TV's component inputs expect 720x480p (not 640x480p) and apply the right sampling rate.

[Xan]

According to the prad article that Iiyama monitor scales non-native 16:9 resolutions only horizontally. That's quite a waste and makes the monitor useless for 720p.

[Xyga]

Some of the scaling examples on prad look terrible. On the other hand, I've seen digicam snapshots of monitors running with a XRGB which looks great, while the scaling examples on prad (for the same monitor) looked totally off.

So we can't really tell with just those heh. I wonder why some websites even bother mentioning upscaling/interpolation since they don't really do in-depht testing.
It's not just prad, tftcentral also do this and it's confusing. Meh.

According to the prad article that Iiyama monitor scales non-native 16:9 resolutions only horizontally. That's quite a waste and makes the monitor useless for 720p.

Yes I thought the same at first, but it seems the review also says this is an issue only on DVI.
Upscaling on VGA & HDMI is okay.
At least I think this what it says, google translation is lacking as usual;

Skalierung, Bildraten und Deinterlacing
Die kleinere HD-Auflösung 720p skaliert der Monitor am HDMI-Eingang überraschenderweise korrekt als Vollbild. Über den DVI-Anschluss im PC-Betrieb war keine korrekte Darstellung dieser Auflösung möglich. Da im PC-Betrieb diese Aufgabe aber der interne Player übernimmt, sind für die Videowiedergabe generell keine Nachteile zu befürchten. 4:3-Auflösungen konnten über die seitengerechte Anzeige mit schwarzen Balken an den Seiten ebenfalls korrekt dargestellt werden.

Translated:

The smaller scaled 720p HD resolution the monitor on the HDMI input correctly surprisingly full screen. About the DVI port in PC mode does not display this resolution was possible. As in PC mode but this task is performed by the internal player, no disadvantages are generally feared for video playback. 4:3 resolutions could also be shown on the page just display with black bars on the sides correctly.

[Xyga]

On a different topic I received my AA transcoder, wired it to the W6, tested with XRGB 2 & 3, Dreamcast...

But the picture is only flashing/strobing approximately every 1/3 second.

Maybe the culprit is my power adapter that's only 500mA when the requirement is 1A ?
Or the extremely picky W6 again, don't know...

[Unseen]

At least I think this what it says, google translation is lacking as usual;

Skalierung, Bildraten und Deinterlacing
Die kleinere HD-Auflösung 720p skaliert der Monitor am HDMI-Eingang überraschenderweise korrekt als Vollbild. Über den DVI-Anschluss im PC-Betrieb war keine korrekte Darstellung dieser Auflösung möglich. Da im PC-Betrieb diese Aufgabe aber der interne Player übernimmt, sind für die Videowiedergabe generell keine Nachteile zu befürchten. 4:3-Auflösungen konnten über die seitengerechte Anzeige mit schwarzen Balken an den Seiten ebenfalls korrekt dargestellt werden.

Quick manual translation: "Surprisingly on the HDMI input the smaller HD resolution of 720p is scaled correctly to full screen. Via the DVI input connected to a PC no correct display of this resolution was possible. Since using a PC this job [scaling] is done by the player [on the PC], no disadvantages for video playback are to be feared. 4:3 resolutions could also be shown with the correct aspect ratio with black bars on the sides."

So you are correct, the monitor appers to correctly scale HDMI signals or at least signals connected to the HDMI input.

[Xyga]

Thanks ! ^^

[Xan]

Oh, that was on a different page than what I was reading. Still weird enough that they didn't bother giving a comparison using HDMI.

I've always been interested in a scaling quality comparison between PC monitors and current TVs...

[LEGENOARYNINLIA]

Does anyone happen to have any idea why Tototek's PS2 to SFC/SNES converters don't work at all with the Super Game Boy? When I plug the converter in the SGB plays a sound and the colours change on the screen*. Not a single button or the D-pad works.

*This can also be done with a controller that does work with the SGB by pressing X.

EDIT: I've tried two different converters and four different controllers.

[EmperorZelos]

A quick question on sync combining
http://members.optusnet.com.au/eviltim/scart.htm
http://gamesx.com/wiki/doku.php?id=av:d ... cart_cable
http://www.nexusuk.org/projects/vga2scart/circuit
I have found these to combine H-V sync into composite sync, one looks alot easier to make but my question is which one is known to work and would they both work?

[LordHypnos]

DC does output a 720x480p signal, but the active gaming area is limited to 640x480p within. Only the white splashscreen up front uses the wider resolution.

The problem with that is that a) that both resolutions are technically 4:3, so all DC games will display a little too narrow on digital displays and b) all VGA inputs on LCDs only sample the input by VESA specs, meaning that the 720x480p gets sampled in 640x480p. If you have a 1-pixel checkerboard pattern (e.g. the power bars on the bottom in Guilty Gear X), VGA inputs on LCDs won't properly resolve this.

VGA to HDMI converters won't help either, but VGA to component transcoders will, since the TV's component inputs expect 720x480p (not 640x480p) and apply the right sampling rate.

Okay, so then my question is: What is a good way to test whether the monitor is displaying the signal properly? Would the Guilty Gear X example be a good choice? I have GGX, so that would be reasonably easy for me to do. I also have the 240p test suite, which might have patterns in it that would give me some info on this. In addition, I'm dealing with a PC CRT monitor, so that might make a difference (As mentioned earlier, it has decent geometry controls, and is not limited by the fixed pixels of an LCD screen.).

[Fudoh]

On a CRT you don't have to worry about that. It's just an issue with A/D conversions and sampling.

[LordHypnos]

On a CRT you don't have to worry about that. It's just an issue with A/D conversions and sampling.

Oh good. Thanks for the info

[Xyga]

On a different topic I received my AA transcoder, wired it to the W6, tested with XRGB 2 & 3, Dreamcast...

But the picture is only flashing/strobing approximately every 1/3 second.

Maybe the culprit is my power adapter that's only 500mA when the requirement is 1A ?
Or the extremely picky W6 again, don't know...

Quoting myself just to tell I've found what was wrong.
There's a potentiometer inside that seems to control the horizontal position.
I just had to turn it counterclockwise completely and the picture finally displayed correctly.

The picture's still a bit off-center (a bit too much to the right for some reason) which is not a problem with the XRGB-2 since it's got its own h-pos control, but it won't be perfectly centered with the XRGB-3 or the DC for instance.
You lose a few pixels to the right, well...

Aside from that it's freaking beautiful !

[Fudoh]

But on the DC you got about 2-3cm on each side filled with black anyway, so I doubt that the overscan actually "eats" away from the active area.

[Xyga]

Actually I take that back, after setting it to the correct position and trying a few games it looks like the DC's picture is squeezed horizontally.

[Fudoh]

It always is. The TV scales 720x480 to 1440x1080. This would be true 4:3. But the DC only uses the inner 1280x1080 area. The downside is the slightly queezed AR, but on the on plus side, you get perfect 1:2 scaling on the horizontal (as in 2x640 = 1280).

[Xyga]

I see, so basically I get the 'real/raw' thing without the crappy scaling artifacts.
(There's a little bit of ringing though, don't know if it's coming from the Sony or the AA)

Do other transcoders (like the FC-14 or TC1600) feature ratio or V&H size compensation without killing the picture quality ?