Toaplan games coming to PC (Steam, GOG)

[Steven]

lol I checked again and I miscounted earlier. It does look okay now in gameplay. It does seem to cause weird things with enemy spawns and items, though, so I don't know if I am going to play it like this.

[Sumez]

It needs some work though! Helicopters, powerups and transitions between stages behave as if we were on the left side. It should be centered. Look at that landing! XD

Hahaha, that is so hilarious.

Wouldn't it make more sense if player-dependent spawns behaved as if you're in the area you'd be in if the horizontal panning was maintained? It definitely shouldn't behave as if you were stuck on the left, that seems like a major oversight, and gives the impression that this mode hasn't really been tested at all.
In general I think all the feedback on this release gives me a really disappointing impression of the work put into it. I trust that they are gonna patch all of it, but man it leaves a sorry first impression :\

[Steven]

That's how I thought it would work too, but then the helicopters all spawn on the left side as soon as you leave the ship and the items go chill on the left side as well.

I'm still wondering if they accidentally released the beta versions of these instead of the finished versions.

Good-ish news, though; clipping through the HUD in Zero Wing only happens in the 1P version and not the 2P version.

[spmbx]

Man, i was ready to support this (eventhough i have a zillion other ways to play these games) but they really need to step up their effort before i'm ready to do that.

[Steven]

Has anyone tried these on GOG or just on Steam? I was waiting for the GOG discount bundle thing, but it seems that it still isn't up on GOG, so I've only bought them on Steam so far. Maybe the GOG versions are better. This is me being hopeful, of course, but I don't know.

They announced on the Steam forum that they are patching a new version of the AYB cutscene into the game. Not sure how I feel about that since this version of the game has nothing to do with that. It's coming whether we like it or not, so I hope they either get the creator of CATS to do it, since that person is around, or Iwabuchi, as he apparently did some work on Spy Bros.

[Leandro]

Man, i was ready to support this (eventhough i have a zillion other ways to play these games) but they really need to step up their effort before i'm ready to do that.

just so you know, the criticism around here is heavily exaggerated. This port has a couple of flaws (which seems they're going to be mostly fixed given the readily communication from the devs), but it's still very well made and clearly had some effort put into it, unlike the rush job Dot Emu ports on SNK games for instance, or 612 games terrible work on the Data East arcade games collection.

This still very good quality and worth supporting.

Enviado de meu 2201116SG usando o Tapatalk

[PerishedFraud ឵឵]

Nothing has been exaggerated, we've just been very keen on what's wrong. Our goals are to have it corrected, after all. Pointing out mistakes does not mean we hate the devs ;p

[Steven]

Being realistic, these releases are quite honestly a bit of a complete mess, to the point where it might not be an exaggeration to say that there are more things wrong than right but I am too lazy to count, so someone else can do it for me and then I will take all of the credit.

Playable? Absolutely. Optimal? Well, nothing really beats a PCB on a CRT, but you could do a lot worse, like the Astro City Mini V. The Astro City Mini V has its own sound emulation problems, but it is still much better than these, and at least it doesn't have a strange revision of Out Zone!

Fortunately, unlike the Astro City Mini V, these are completely salvageable; the actual gameplay, while too fast due to refresh rates, is generally perfect, with the exception of widescreen doing very strange things, and assuming that these do in fact do everything in only 1 frame, they likely outperform both the PCBs and M2; no strange runahead stuff here like you'll see in M2's K Tiger, at least as far as I have seen. I don't think I need to mention that these also far surpass the Astro City Mini V's performance outside of sound emulation, but I guess I just did.

I also got very positive reception from Bitwave when I sent them my list of things to fix, so I imagine they are working on fixing everything already. I don't really feel like playing these in their current state, but once they are fixed I will play the shit out of them.

[DenimDemon]

Yeah these release are a bit of a mess. Bought the bundle (can’t remember the last time I bought a pc game) and honestly I’d rather play the Toaplan games on the Mini V nevermind the outstanding M2 release. I’m not a very picky guy but I’m not finding this version of Outzone much fun, the music doesn’t help. Feels like I’m playing one of those Chinese Metal Slug bootlegs.
Kinda surprised with the state of the games since the people behind this are Toaplan hardcore fans. At least the input feels good to me.
Anyway I had to support this. Hope they patch it and I’m felling like playing a bit more Zero Wing.

[BrianC]

I have the US Mini V. Not sure if anything was changed with the input lag, but the sound is definitely better on Outzone than this PC version and it didn't seem to be an unplayable amout of lag. Tatsujin and K. Tiger are better hands down, aside from response (which is still not bad), on the Egret II mini. Outzone seems to run nicely on MiSTer, as well.

[Jeneki]

Hopefully these all get added!

One more for Twin Cobra: When transitioning between levels, the takeoff sound cuts in and out. Seeing this in both Twin Cobra and Kyukyoku Tiger.

[Jeneki]

https://steamcommunity.com/app/2011900/ ... 029361612/

Regarding Zero Wing and the 'All Your Base' intro
Hi everyone! Andréas from Bitwave here.

As you may have heard, the iconic 'All Your Base Are Belong To Us' scene is not in this version of Zero Wing.

However, we are bringing it to the game via a patch soon for free.

It will be a reimagined version with all the classic dialogue we cherish and love but with an updated art style.

Thank you for your patience!

Sounds completely unnecessary, but I suppose the meme is all most people know about Zero Wing. Will be interesting to see how they implement this if nothing else.

[MJR]

If the emulation of Out Zone had been bad, I would have just simply shrugged and moved on. But it seems to be very well done, it plays very well, and CRT emulation is outstanding so that's why I'm super frustrated that the ROM used is wrong version, and their dialogue "this is the better version" fills me with confusion and dread.

But ultimately I am going to give Bitwave the benefit of doubt; I trust that these are not crazy people and they do want to give Toaplan fans the experience of playing the original PCB that they are looking for, so it is in their and everyone's interest to fix these issues. If they would choose to ignore the feedback and insist on keeping with outdated rom sets, or go full-on weirdo mode and only shuffle the soundtrack order but still keep the same old outdated rom, then they would only shoot themselves in the foot.

[Steven]

Yeah, everything mostly plays exactly as it should, although a bit fast, as long as you don't use the widescreen mode in Kyuukyoku Tiger/Twin Cobra. Yes, the sound effects are broken in every game, and some of the music is missing instruments or has an inconsistent tempo or whatever, but the gameplay itself is actually good for the most part.

I do wonder about that weird version of Out Zone, though. Never seen this version before. I wonder what made them choose this ROM specifically instead of the regular version of the game.

They seem to be actively collecting feedback from the Steam forums, which is good. PLEASE get a non-weird Out Zone in here...

GOG discount bundle would be nice as well.

[DenimDemon]

https://twitter.com/TATSUJIN_Games/stat ... 19840?s=20

They are aware of Outzone.

[Sumez]

PLEASE get a non-weird Out Zone in here...

Is the harder romset in there or not? I'm getting very conflicting information here

[Steven]

PLEASE get a non-weird Out Zone in here...

Is the harder romset in there or not? I'm getting very conflicting information here

Weird version + hard version are both here. I consider the hard version to also be a weird version BTW.

[Sumez]

Why, though?
Seems to be the latest official revision of the game from what I can tell.
EDIT: It's the one my PCB came equipped with, and from what I can tell, the Zero Wing conversion (which seems to be about as commonly found as the dedicated PCB) plays similarly.

I've brought this up several times because I really want to hear Toaplan's own accounts about the existence of these versions. It seems people are just taking arbitrary Mame classifications at face value, which I'm not too keen on.

I was hoping the M2 release could clear things up, but it seems that has been postponed until further notice.

[MJR]

Why, though?
Seems to be the latest official revision of the game from what I can tell.

I've brought this up several times because I really want to hear Toaplan's own accounts about the existence of these versions. It seems people are just taking arbitrary Mame classifications at face value, which I'm not too keen on.

I was hoping the M2 release could clear things up, but it seems that has been postponed until further notice.

Because the version that is listed as normal on Mame plays better? Because it has enemies and features and details not available on the oldest set? Because soundtrack seems to have correct order, which even Toaplan themselves acknowledged? What else do you need?

Of course, if you like the version on bitwave collection better, good for you! But it's not the version I've grown to love. And many others, it seems.

[Sumez]

Because the version that is listed as normal on Mame plays better? Because it has enemies and features and details not available on the oldest set? Because soundtrack seems to have correct order, which even Toaplan themselves acknowledged? What else do you need?

You're talking about the old (beta? location test?) version again. I'd tell you it's still not what I'm talking about, but I think you're only reading half of my posts

[MJR]

Because the version that is listed as normal on Mame plays better? Because it has enemies and features and details not available on the oldest set? Because soundtrack seems to have correct order, which even Toaplan themselves acknowledged? What else do you need?

You're talking about the old (beta? location test?) version again. I'd tell you it's still not what I'm talking about, but I think you're only reading half of my posts

I have been talking about needing to update the Out Zone romset into latest revision, then you chimed in asking why, I explained, now you are telling me this was not you were talking about. I think it's better if I ignore you.

[Steven]

Why, though?
Seems to be the latest official revision of the game from what I can tell.
EDIT: It's the one my PCB came equipped with, and from what I can tell, the Zero Wing conversion (which seems to be about as commonly found as the dedicated PCB) plays similarly.

I've brought this up several times because I really want to hear Toaplan's own accounts about the existence of these versions. It seems people are just taking arbitrary Mame classifications at face value, which I'm not too keen on.

I was hoping the M2 release could clear things up, but it seems that has been postponed until further notice.

Yeah, the hard version is something I've been meaning to ask Uemura-san about but I keep forgetting.

Is this ROM revision more common on Japanese or overseas PCBs? Mine is Japanese and I have the normal version. Everyone that I know IRL who has a Japanese PCB has the normal ROM, too. What region is your PCB?

Maybe they got asked/forced by management/arcade operators to make the game harder after putting out the normal version. I always thought it was strange that they would intentionally release several revisions of the easier version and then suddenly increase the difficulty by a very large amount in like the very last revision. Somehow I think that the normal version is the dev team's intended vision of the game, not the hard version.

[Sumez]

I have been talking about needing to update the Out Zone romset into latest revision, then you chimed in asking why

No, I was asking Steven. Five posts after your latest post in the thread, so I have no clue why you'd assume I was addressing you
Let's file it as a misunderstanding and not dwell anymore on it...

Yeah, the hard version is something I've been meaning to ask Uemura-san about but I keep forgetting.

If you ever get the opportunity, it's something I would appreciate immensely

Is this ROM revision more common on Japanese or overseas PCBs? Mine is Japanese and I have the normal version. Everyone that I know IRL who has a Japanese PCB has the normal ROM, too. What region is your PCB?

Maybe they got asked/forced by management/arcade operators to make the game harder after putting out the normal version. I always thought it was strange that they would intentionally release several revisions of the easier version and then suddenly increase the difficulty by a very large amount in like the very last revision. Somehow I think that the normal version is the dev team's intended vision of the game, not the hard version.

Yes, my assumption is similar to yours.
My best sherlock holmes skill seem to point at my PCB originating in Germany, and I think European PCBs generally are surprisingly ubiquitous, I often see the game for sale here. The nature of the code though makes me suspect that it was still designed by Toaplan however, and not some hack added in by European distributors. Was the Zero Wing conversion not distributed in Japan? Are there versions of that which play like the easier version?
If it turns out it's a regional difference, it would probably be very helpful for the official mame labels to be updated.

I disagree that the harder version "increases the difficulty by a very large amount" though. The game is still very easy for an arcade shooter in this revision, so I honestly wouldn't want to play an easier version personally. It's honestly really ridiculous how many bomb drops you get in the "normal" version of the game!
In terms of challenge, the difference is barely noticeable outside the first stage, which can be a little rough compared to how early it appears, but I think rank kinda normalizes already by the second one, making the two versions very similar outside of the bomb frequency. Again, I'm probably biased, but I think it's kinda stupid how the enemies don't really try to shoot you on the first stage in the """normal""" version - feels like a waste to even have them I'd rather be playing fun shooting game right off the bat!

[PerishedFraud ឵឵]

Personally I find the novelty of an easy first round charming, since Out Zone is a very fast clear and you get to see the real challenge in loops anyway. However, sometimes you really do just want to get into the meat of it. That's why having access to both versions is ideal.

[MJR]

I have been talking about needing to update the Out Zone romset into latest revision, then you chimed in asking why

No, I was asking Steven. Five posts after your latest post in the thread, so I have no clue why you'd assume I was addressing you
Let's file it as a misunderstanding and not dwell anymore on it...

OK, thanks for clearing it up. And fair enough, sorry.

Looks like I need to be a little bit careful here, I have noticed myself becoming fairly grumpy and irritable due to lack of good sleep lately.

[Steven]

If you ever get the opportunity, it's something I would appreciate immensely

I'll see what I can do, but no promises; I'll have to ask him if it's okay to talk about since it might be spoilers for the documentary for all I know. He actually told me some stuff about the zako AI in Out Zone on Sunday when I ran into him at the Raiden live, but...

Yes, my assumption is similar to yours.
My best sherlock holmes skill seem to point at my PCB originating in Germany, and I think European PCBs generally are surprisingly ubiquitous, I often see the game for sale here. The nature of the code though makes me suspect that it was still designed by Toaplan however, and not some hack added in by European distributors. Was the Zero Wing conversion not distributed in Japan? Are there versions of that which play like the easier version?
If it turns out it's a regional difference, it would probably be very helpful for the official mame labels to be updated.

I'm starting to think that the Zero Wing conversion doesn't exist in Japan, as I've talked to Japanese Toaplan fans, including the owner of Mikado, and none of them have ever heard about the Zero Wing conversion. I think it might be an overseas thing. Does anyone have one of these? There is one on ebay now: https://www.ebay.com/itm/125484882195

I disagree that the harder version "increases the difficulty by a very large amount" though. The game is still very easy for an arcade shooter in this revision, so I honestly wouldn't want to play an easier version personally. It's honestly really ridiculous how many bomb drops you get in the "normal" version of the game!
In terms of challenge, the difference is barely noticeable outside the first stage, which can be a little rough compared to how early it appears, but I think rank kinda normalizes already by the second one, making the two versions very similar outside of the bomb frequency. Again, I'm probably biased, but I think it's kinda stupid how the enemies don't really try to shoot you on the first stage in the """normal""" version - feels like a waste to even have them I'd rather be playing fun shooting game right off the bat!

The hard version is still not too bad for an arcade game, but it's still way harder than the regular version, and the aggressiveness of the enemies on stage 1 is unusually high, I think. I always thought of stage 1 as something of a training stage that shows you how the game works, and it is structured in such a way, so barely avoiding death while learning the game at the same time on the hard version, and on a stage where you're not going to get the speed up, always felt odd. It's strange that many of the enemies don't shoot on stage 1 on the normal version, but I think they shoot too much in the hard version; somewhere in between would have been better.

One thing that I have not done is mess around with the DIP switches; I've only ever played on difficulty B. Maybe setting it to D would be a good balance.

[velo]

fills me with confusion and dread

That's my reaction to the "All Your Base" news.

Too late for M2 to follow suit I presume, so that's one feature where PC players will have the edge. Hey, if it drives some sales, good for them.

[Steven]

People on Steam are saying that the hard version of Out Zone crashes if you 1CC it.

Speaking of crashing, I've heard that Dogyuun!! got its crashing bug fixed on the Astro City Mini V, so I'd expect the M2 and Bitwave releases to have it fixed as well.

[MJR]

Had a go with the rest of the collection to see if it fares any better, and fortunately there were no disasters such as the OutZone rom set. However, I did notice some small things. I got Truxton PCB (converted from Tatsujin PCB via jumper connection), and the default difficulty settings dont seem to match the version "europe" on this one. In steam version, enemies seem to be shooting significantly more bullets. Also, like stated before, the music and sfx are terribly botched. You wont notice it in the beginning, but as soon as it changes into boss area tune.. oh dear.

KyouKyou Tiger and Zero Wing seemed to run fine, sans some strange slowdown when KK Tiger launches. But then again I'm not as familiar with these titles as some people here.

[Steven]

I think Zero Wing is overall in the best shape right now (mostly because its extend DIPs are properly labeled, unlike the rest; the clipping through the HUD doesn't really hurt anything) and Out Zone is the worst.

How is the difficulty difference between Tatsujin and Truxton? I've only ever played Tatsujin, but I've heard it's harder than Truxton, but no real specific details.

BTW the broken boss music is exactly what happens on MiSTer, as well. Broken music is why I don't play it on MiSTer, so it's annoying to encounter it here as well.