Samsung F4500 plasma bargain for 480p sources

[Xan]

@Xan: I haven't a RGBs source yet. If RGB handles 240p sources as 480i, switching to YUV is a must. I've seen the 480i handling and I can imagine what it does to true 240p sources.

22point8 mentioned some pages ago that his F4900 handles 240p fine over the SCART input, that's why I was a bit surprised. It's not a big deal for me though, I wouldn't like the look too much anyway. The Samsung pixel structure is maybe a bit comparable to a consumer CRT with weak scanlines, so I get the comparison that people are drawing here, but a PVM/BVM with stronger scanlines is still a quite different thing and something that I prefer. Plus of course, a CRT doesn't have to scale anything, that alone makes it better than this for 240p sources if screen size isn't an issue.

What are you using to get your RGB to the set? Does the H4500 have a SCART connector, or are you using something like the Framemeister or the analogue signal converter Im using.

Not sure why your 240p is not working? You are not trying to apply faux scanlines, right? As I mentioned early in the thread, I dont think they will scale evenly on this set-- at least I cant get them to with emulators.

I'm not using any scalers or tricks, just straight input. Well, the one thing I haven't tried is a PAL 288p source...

So, what I gather from the other posts, always set Cell Light to 20 and be done? This paragraph really confused me in the guide, I thought it would start limiting the brightness with a 65% or higher setting. As for PC mode, I don't have this option even when I switch off game mode. Is it on the second input only?

My other current settings for 720p sources on HDMI are like this: contrast 78, brightness 38, sharpness 60, all enhancements off. White screens appear really dim compared to any LCD, even with maximal Cell Light, but I thought this was normal for plasmas and just something to get used to. Also why do you guys seem to have such high contrast settings, I get a lot of color crush on default 100?

Edit: some shots to showcase the horrors of 240p processing on the SCART input:

http://i.imgur.com/2WD4lUj.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/UH8No0v.jpg

The color bars actually look quite desaturated in real, as if it's using composite and not RGB. The horizontal smearing on reds mentioned by Fudoh is really visible here as well.

Edit2: just tested the PS2 in component 480p, with RE4 (one of the few PAL PS2 games with 480p support). Resolution is now displayed. Looks not as good as a CRT with 480i in my opinion. There are some weird flickering streaks across the screen which might be due to those cheap component cables (which don't even fit properly into the AV port). Main issue that I have is still the heavy interpolation/filtering, sharpness doesn't affect it at all.

For component 480i I tried Timesplitters Future Perfect, feels quite laggy compared to a CRT. The horizontal flickering streaks from 480i aren't as apparent here. In motion there seems to be a noticeable drop in vertical resolution, that I guess is perfectly expected. On a CRT odd and even fields are perceived as "blended together" by the human brain, deinterlacing of course eliminates that. As a result most of the image looks a bit more pixelated than with RE4. I guess it's about in line with what I'd expect from a modern TV, certainly nothing exceptional though.

Then I tried the PS3 set to 576p50 (no 480p on a PAL PS3), still through HDMI, the processing appears quite different to component, and better in my opinion. This leads me to a thought, is there any affordable yet quality component to HDMI converter device? I guess it might be justifiable given that the TV doesn't break the bank at this price point, and from what I can tell it's the only way to bypass this filter on component. I'd like someone else to compare this in order to verify that I'm not just seeing things, though.

[Fudoh]

is there any affordable yet quality component to HDMI converter device?

yes, there are dozens of cheap converters (about 25-30 EUR) that do a great job.

[22point8]

Mine hates Scart switch units for some reason so go direct, and if your cable doesn't have voltage it defaults to composite. My QED playstation Scart cable gives me RGB on PVM, but composite on my f4900, but using the snakebyte cable its RGB.

[Xan]

OK I just hooked up a PS1, RGB works there and 240p indeed does look alright. On NTSC SotN there seems to be a tremble in the image when scrolling, think that's because my modded PAL PS1 is too far from NTSC output timings.

[Ed Oscuro]

A quick question for those in the know - did the late Panasonics handle 480p well?

[Xan]

Did anyone find out what game mode does exactly? Was just testing PAL Wipeout on the PS1 and game mode "on" seems to make it worse, esp. during fast movements. 288p looks alright to me.

[Josh128]

A quick question for those in the know - did the late Panasonics handle 480p well?

I had a 2013 Panasonic Viera TC-P50X60 (also anamorphic 1024x768), it was passable to simply, "OK". It did not have the same clarity, the colors were very drab and much less natural at the same time, and the contrast seemed a good bit lower. The overall image didnt hold a candle to my first F4500, so I sold it and bought a second F4500. When I powered up the 4500, I knew within the first minute I made a good dec.

Not just for 480p, either-- over the air HD channels were also far more beautiful on the F4500.

[Josh128]

Did anyone find out what game mode does exactly? Was just testing PAL Wipeout on the PS1 and game mode "on" seems to make it worse, esp. during fast movements. 288p looks alright to me.

You lose the option for some of the more advanced settings in the menu, dont remember exactly which ones-- maybe MPEG noise filter and Digital Clean View, among others. That said though, I did the FZero lag test with Game Mode on and off, and there was no difference at all. Others have reported similar findings on AVS Forums.

[22point8]

@Fudoh, Cell 19, Contrast 77 gets you 80cdm2. Will edit post to show measurements.







Plasma Gamma


CRT Gamma (1454QM)

[Ed Oscuro]

It did not have the same clarity, the colors were very drab and much less natural at the same time, and the contrast seemed a good bit lower.

I see you didn't have any explicit comment about 480p. Nothing in that list looks critical to me, at that. Additionally this wasn't the model I had in mind; it looks more like a budget model to me.

The models I'm most interested in are
TC-60PU54
TC-P60U50

or anything faster (in the input lag arena).

[Josh128]

The items I described are what makes any display better than another-- far more than resolution-- Contrast, color accuracy, screen uniformity, and motion handling are weighted much more than any other feature. The sets 480p was not on the same level as the F4500, I didnt mention it because I just assumed it was understood. The way it handled Gamecube games was the main reason I switched it out for another F4500. The combination of all the features I mentioned added up to a very strong win for the F4500.

You are right, the TC-P50X60 is the price and size equivalent of the F4500, but it matters not-- you could put an S60 or a VT Panasonic against it and it would still have better 480p. Its simply the best Ive seen in any flatscreen Ive tested, and I tested quite a few before I purchased my first one.

[Ed Oscuro]

But I didn't ask for those things, now did I? I'm looking for the sets with reported ~10ms input lag benefit over the Samsung and similar. Stop with the fearmongering over other stuff.

[22point8]

I briefly considered the x60 but the f4900 was the same physical dimensions but 1 more screen inch (thinner bezel) and had the 10 point white balance and CMS I was interested in, 3D was a 'bonus'.

Also, so much for plasmas being 'dim'

[Josh128]

But I didn't ask for those things, now did I? I'm looking for the sets with reported ~10ms input lag benefit over the Samsung and similar. Stop with the fearmongering over other stuff.

Its not fearmongering, just trying to help you out, no need to be ugly. If 32-48 ms of lag is too much for you, go right ahead and get a Panasonic S60 or better yet, an LCD with sub 20ms lag. You wont notice a difference and will be stuck with an inferior picture on 720 and sub resolutions.

[Josh128]

I briefly considered the x60 but the f4900 was the same physical dimensions but 1 more screen inch (thinner bezel) and had the 10 point white balance and CMS I was interested in, 3D was a 'bonus'.

Also, so much for plasmas being 'dim'

LOL I guess so, huh?

[bobrocks95]

But I didn't ask for those things, now did I? I'm looking for the sets with reported ~10ms input lag benefit over the Samsung and similar. Stop with the fearmongering over other stuff.

Its not fearmongering, just trying to help you out, no need to be ugly. If 32-48 ms of lag is too much for you, go right ahead and get a Panasonic S60 or better yet, an LCD with sub 20ms lag. You wont notice a difference and will be stuck with an inferior picture on 720 and sub resolutions.

2-3 frames of lag is an awful lot- just because you can't notice it doesn't mean Ed can't, so don't tell him he "won't notice a difference" and is making an awful decision. You defend this television like your life depended on it, and need to realize that while it's perfect for you, it might not be perfect for everyone else, depending on what they're looking for.

In fact, the softness of the image people are talking about (the CRT-like quality you mentioned) makes me think I probably won't like it. My favorite thing about my EDTV is how razor-sharp it is, and if I have to bump up the sharpness and add ringing effects like you have I don't really see the point. Still willing to try it out though, as soon as my personal Amazon fiasco is sorted...

[Ed Oscuro]

It's a shame that LG has bowed out also. Plasma is all gone...and this segment could have benefited from another year or two of low-lag processing enhancements such as those seen on LCDs.

So for 28ms panels, we're looking at roughly 3/4 of a frame of lag over what I understand to be the minimum for the technology (screen draw overall happens at the same time as the bottom of the frame, and the bottom of the frame can appear no faster than 16ms after the top, though this would actually represent a lagfree result for the frame bottom). 38ms adds another roughly 2/3 over that (actually 5/8). Total? 11/8 frames of lag, or 1 and 3/8ths of a frame. Compared to the top LCD screens with a reported half frame of lag (on average) this is not the best result. It's not 2-3 frames, either, but it's not the best. And the competition isn't just LCD, which arguably takes a demerit (especially in IPS panels) for input lag, but for some of us CRT is still an option too (one that I'd love to avoid).

With any luck, OLED will get there and get affordable, but unfortunately by then we will have to deal with 4K panels which will have FHD as a secondary feature (even though it will likely still be the main media used for home video and broadcasting).

[RGB32E]

I checked out the 51" F4500 at a local retailer today. They had one left in store for $399. It looked awful compared to the mediocre LED LCDs that flanked it. I asked the salesman if the black level would improve in a home environment and received a stern NO as an answer. The only other Samsung plasma option apparently for decent black level is of course the F8500 series and maybe the F5300. I would try the 43" F4500, but I can't find it new locally. I can't say I was impressed with the picture quality in store...

[22point8]

Black level on mine is 0.007cdm2. 145/0.007 = about 20000:1 on/off contrast ratio, ansi is about 5500:1. Even using patterns that create a worst case scenario black its 0.068cdm2 about as black as a good va panel lcd, but without the viewing angle and uniformity issues. A store environment is the worst place for a plasma that tops out at 200cdm2, an lcd in 'shop mode' can reach 500cdm2.

[Xan]

Did anyone find out what game mode does exactly? Was just testing PAL Wipeout on the PS1 and game mode "on" seems to make it worse, esp. during fast movements. 288p looks alright to me.

You lose the option for some of the more advanced settings in the menu, dont remember exactly which ones-- maybe MPEG noise filter and Digital Clean View, among others. That said though, I did the FZero lag test with Game Mode on and off, and there was no difference at all. Others have reported similar findings on AVS Forums.

Game mode feels different on 15 kHz and 31 kHz inputs I'd say. Still a lot of testing to do...

I'm beginning to like the look a bit more, especially with the PSP. Shame there is no way to get full screen there, the zoom controls of the TV are severely lacking here.

[Xan]

I've realized the AVSHD DVD is just for movie calibration, it might not be that relevant for a PS3 outputting games in full range RGB. Case in point, on regular YCbCr output I can set white balance/contrast so that all three colors are flashing from 219-251 on the A4 pattern, but as soon as I switch the PS3 to RGB, everything above ~233 is crushed.

[Konsolkongen]

I checked out the 51" F4500 at a local retailer today. They had one left in store for $399. It looked awful compared to the mediocre LED LCDs that flanked it. I asked the salesman if the black level would improve in a home environment and received a stern NO as an answer. The only other Samsung plasma option apparently for decent black level is of course the F8500 series and maybe the F5300. I would try the 43" F4500, but I can't find it new locally. I can't say I was impressed with the picture quality in store...

Some of the late Samsung 1080p Plasamas uses a pentile display rather than a true Full HD-panel. I'm pretty sure some models in the F series had this too, so look out for that. It looks pretty weird to me. There's some information about it in this review:
http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/pn64h500 ... 143657.htm

[22point8]

Set the PS3 to limited range and hdmi super white. If you ever intend on playing a ps2 classic you need to use limited or you get a levels mismatch (all blacks will be grey). Set dvd/bluray to use ycbcr instead of auto.

Also, over time you'll have to change brightness etc as the panel ages, blacks get blacker, when new my f4900 black was 0.01, now its 0.007, the lowest i ever measured was 0.0062 almost top panasonic kind of black.

Set up movie mode, set colourspace to custom and cinema smooth on. Then go to input select, press tools and edut name to dvi pc. Now set colour temp to warm 2 and thats perfect for gaming, but when you put in a bluray it automatically reverts to movie.

[Xan]

Limited doesn't change the result at all in A4, it's like the white balance controls only affect YCbCr signals. Seems like the 360 would be a better system for this display, at least that can output games in YCbCr.

[Josh128]

I checked out the 51" F4500 at a local retailer today. They had one left in store for $399. It looked awful compared to the mediocre LED LCDs that flanked it. I asked the salesman if the black level would improve in a home environment and received a stern NO as an answer. The only other Samsung plasma option apparently for decent black level is of course the F8500 series and maybe the F5300. I would try the 43" F4500, but I can't find it new locally. I can't say I was impressed with the picture quality in store...

They do look incredibly dim in a store next to LEDs-- this is a widely known fact-- the LEDs far greater light out fare much better in the brightly lit store environments. Once you get them in a light controlled home environment, there is no comparison-- the F4500 will produce a picture as good or better than a $1000 LED.

Many, many people have shared this concern and in my opinion its one of the biggest reasons plasmas did not sell nearly as well as LCDs-- they look incredibly dim on the showroom floors-- unless you view them in a light controlled environment, such as many of Best Buys Magnolia rooms.

22point8 will back this up, and Fudoh, having problems with his being too bright in his setup, will likely as well.

Before I purchased mine, I viewed it and its 1080p brother, the F5300, in several showrooms-- in ALL of the rooms with skylights or bright flourescent lighting, they looked markedly dim compared to the LEDs next to them-- so much so that the average consumer would be inclined to think something was wrong with them. DONT BE FOOLED!! Once you get them in your home, they will blow you away. The pricing is just the icing on the cake.

I suggest you research some plasma threads on AVS forums before you rule them out-- you will find many, many plasma and AV enthusiasts that will back me up on this. The F4500 and F5300 are plenty bright, I know its hard to believe after what you have seen in the showroom, but you just have to believe what Im telling you, and if you dont believe me, ask 22point8 or Fudoh, they will tell you the same thing.

LEDs are light cannons, and the nature of their design allows for brighter pictures in bright environments-- plasmas are much more CRT- like-- and if you have ever had a CRT in sunlight, you know that they are almost unwatchable as well.

Another benefit of all plasmas aside from contrast, motion, and color accuracy that I forgot to mention is off- angle viewing-- they have PERFECT off angle viewing, which NO LEDs can match. They are identical to CRTs in this regard as well.

As for the F8500, its the brightest plasma ever made, and a great set-- but it will not better, or even match the F4500 in gaming for any resolution at or under 720p without an external processor. It has more lag as well. If your going to be doing a majority of 1080p gaming or 240p with a Framemeister, it will produce a great picture if you can deal with about ~60 ms of input lag.

Below is some references for the well documented and often overstated "dim plasma" compared to "LED" information. Dont write it off based on what you see-- I thought the very same thing as you when I was making my decision-- once I got my sets home, though, I was just WOWed.

http://www.rtings.com/info/lcd-vs-led-vs-plasma
http://www.ehow.com/facts_7691007_plasm ... -room.html
http://www.cnet.com/news/led-lcd-vs-plasma-vs-lcd/

[22point8]

Yeah just checked, even forced 60hz playback. Well I doubt many games use 236-255 anyway.

[Xan]

Also my observations on PC mode, that's quite interesting, on otherwise identical settings compared to no input name+game mode it looks a lot fuzzier and there seems to be a greenish tint or warmer color temp (?). That's the complete opposite from what I would have guessed from that name. Tbh right now I don't see the appeal of PC mode, it has a certain organic look to it, but light output is dramatically lower compared to standard/noname.

[Xyga]

You know Josh I think you're preaching to the choir somehow, because most people know plasmas are much more pleasing displays, by nature superior to LCD's.

It's just that around here, you'll find most guys will gladly trade some pure viewing comfort... with record-breaking low lag, higher resolution, greater accuracy, details, and 'fake scanlines'-friendliness.
Yes, even knowing about the downsides.

Though for the ones who don't care that much, the F4500 indeed looks like a terrific alternative !

[Xan]

And one thing is for sure, they need a lot of tweaking (not that I'm against that). The complete opposite to my PC monitor, which is nearly perfect out of the box. I've decided that I'm going to keep my H4500, it's a nice display especially considering the price.

[Josh128]

In fact, the softness of the image people are talking about (the CRT-like quality you mentioned) makes me think I probably won't like it. My favorite thing about my EDTV is how razor-sharp it is, and if I have to bump up the sharpness and add ringing effects like you have I don't really see the point. Still willing to try it out though, as soon as my personal Amazon fiasco is sorted...

But thats just it-- the image IS razor sharp for 480p and above-- the "softness" as it were, only applies to the 240p mode, not the other modes. Not sure where you get that the 480p and 720p images on this set have a "softness" to them. That is an absolute falsity. Do the first few Fzero GX pics I posted on this thread look soft? Do the Lords of Shadow pics look soft? 720p video is much sharper on this set than you will ever find on any 1080p set, as is the 480p-- I have the 1080p version of this set, a top-rated, late model plasma (comparable to the Panasonic S60)-- and the much closer to native look of the 480 and 720p signals are much sharper. I can assure you that your EDTV is in no way any better at 480p than the Hitachi Ultravision Digital 36" CRT I used to own, and this set produces a remarkably similar, (even slightly superior in my opinion, due to the screen size and uniformity) to that one.

For 240p, yes, perhaps your EDTV will be sharper as it is an even multiple of 240p, if thats a plus for you thats great, but your set will lose out to this one in all other areas of PQ, as there were no flat panel EDTVs ever produced that approach the contrast of these late model plasmas.

The 240p handling on this set is a special case-- the way its processes does give a subtle bit of softness compared to even other 720p sets, like the Panasonic X60 I had-- its 240p, which it recognized as 480i, gave a very sharp, pixelly image-- which was OK for NES and SNES, but looked horrible for N64. The 240p handling on this set only (the 5300 version does not look as good) is in no way "overly soft". It looks great with all 240p systems, without use of external processors.

The CRT look has little to do with the softness of the 240p mode-- it has more to do with the color reproduction, contrast, off-angle viewing and motion of the set. I find the look to be CRT like even in the much sharper 480p and 720p modes.

You saw the pics of the NES and SNES games I posted, do you not think they look nice? What ringing, other than the jpeg noise created by the photobucket website which I uploaded to, do you see in the image? Please tell me.

Im only getting defensive because it seems like no one believes or acknowledges anything Ive posted here, even pictures which show an obvious difference in the case of the GC i vs p or very little differences in the Wii vs GC pics.

In any case-- you should know that by its very nature-- upscaling softens an image, unless its to an exact multiple of the native res. I guarantee you that both 480p and 720p are sharper on this set than on a 1080p set. Thats a fact, and one of the reasons I cant stand 480p on 1080p sets.

The strange issues Xan and others reported on 240p with the H4500 set, I have no idea about-- my set looks even better in person than the 240p pics I have posted. The only knock against 240p on this set that I can say with certainty, is that it fails to accurately show emulated scanlines. If you connect a PC or a Framemeister to it with the intention of reproducing the scanlines as you would on a 1080p set, it will not display them properly.