Trigonometry Wars 3 Redux: The Revengeoning (v1.0 released!)

[BPzeBanshee]

So you're running GM 8.0 then?

Well that's even weirder because so am I. :S

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EDIT: and I'm sure there's a better spot than the manual to check for version numbering too. Honestly I stuck your EXE into the decompiler and it crashed so I assumed it was 8.1, but if you're doing anti-decompilation stuff even THAT could fuck anything up that's externalisation-related.

[Giest118]

So you're running GM 8.0 then?

Well that's even weirder because so am I. :S

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Either way, I have all the tools present in my game to force it to function for everyone. Jesus christ. This is such an idiotic problem to be having. XD

[BPzeBanshee]

Yeah, fuck it I blame GM + 'unique' computers. Seems as messed up as background_create_from_screen causing crashes. Funny that it's the things like these that never get mentioned until folks like us make the system break. Sorry for even bringing it up now.

EDIT: You do of course have a joystick_exists(id) check before running joystick commands of course right?

[Giest118]

And to answer your question from before, I did not use any anti-decompiling stuff. I think the decompiler is just imperfect.

Not that I think you'd want to look at my code anyway. I'm one of THOSE people, who actually uses the retarded drag'n'drop coding style, unless I specifically need to use code for whatever reason. :V

EDIT: You do of course have a joystick_exists(id) check before running joystick commands of course right?

.....................................

Huh.

This just in: Turns out I'm a fucking idiot.

[BPzeBanshee]

I was just about to sign off at Uni and that thought popped into my head - surely other than the player movement code it must be the only thing you're really doing any different from me, and it'd explain the game suddenly slowing down when checking for a non-existant device (although really it should pop an error, probably got fixed in 8.1).

I really do hope that fixes it.

[Giest118]

Me too. I'm leaving in the option to turn off the configurable controls though, just in case.

[Giest118]

So... updates:

* Created the new endings.
* Made it so hypers now carry over between levels, and hyper times freeze during boss warnings and introductions.
* Made it so lasering a boss now completely fills the chain gauge instantly. This implies the presence of new scoring tactics, where optimizing score might involve "tapping" the boss with the laser so you can kill it at a more opportune time for massive bullet cancels.
* Made it so all enemies now drop point items. Popcorn enemies drop more point items when killed with the shot.
* To help balance chaining against that last feature, collecting point items now only partially fills the chain gauge. Although, for a huge bullet cancel, the effect will be much the same.
* Using a hyper now instantly fills the chain gauge.

[n0rtygames]

So... updates:

* Created the new endings.
* Made it so hypers now carry over between levels, and hyper times freeze during boss warnings and introductions.
* Made it so lasering a boss now completely fills the chain gauge instantly. This implies the presence of new scoring tactics, where optimizing score might involve "tapping" the boss with the laser so you can kill it at a more opportune time for massive bullet cancels.
* Made it so all enemies now drop point items. Popcorn enemies drop more point items when killed with the shot.
* To help balance chaining against that last feature, collecting point items now only partially fills the chain gauge. Although, for a huge bullet cancel, the effect will be much the same.
* Using a hyper now instantly fills the chain gauge.

I approve of these changes...

How come you went for killing with shot = more score? I was gonna do something like this, based a little on maniac futari.. but decided against it

[Giest118]

How come you went for killing with shot = more score? I was gonna do something like this, based a little on maniac futari.. but decided against it

Without that change, there is mathematically no reason to ever use the shot for score. Now there is!

The difference is comparatively miniscule (two point items vs one), but, you know... score optimization.




ADD ALL OF THE MECHANICS. ALL OF THEM!

[Giest118]

So I just ran some stress-tests on this game's scoring mechanics. Before I tell the results, I will define "stress test."

Basically, I loaded the game up with cheats. These cheats were:
* Permanent invincibility
* Chain never breaks

This way, I would simulate a run with perfect chains that uses basically impossible scoring tactics. The purpose of this kind of test is to make sure that the scoring mechanics can never run into things like counterstops, or that lulzy scoring glitch in DDP SDOJ.

I ran two of these tests: One where I used hypers to as much scoring advantage as possible, and one where I used no hypers. While I was doing these tests, I decided to also time the entire game for length. The game's length varies by as much as fifteen minutes depending on the tactics used against bosses. The length of the first loop is about 22 minutes, and any 2-all runs will likely average around 47 minutes.

The two tests resulted in these scores:



Now, I may not have used completely ideal scoring strategies in my hyper-using run, but I think it's safe to say that there are about a billion points possible to get in this game. Half of your score will come from good hyper usage, and the other half comes from chaining and survival.

So I have basically made the most balanced scoring system ever. :3

[n0rtygames]

So I have basically made the most balanced scoring system ever. :3

Looking forward to you releasing it. I actually enjoyed 0.8 a lot. Your reasoning behind the shot change sounds good

[Giest118]

So I'm pretty sure I'm done with like... everything? At this point I'm just doing mass testing. Expect a release within the next week.

[Giest118]

Guys, guys, guys guys

"Reaching the end of a hyper results in a screen clear." Yes or no to me adding this in?

Full implications of this: Screen clears result in point items, which contribute to the next hyper. Bombing before the end of a hyper would result in no point items. So, there would be a reward for reaching the end of a hyper without bombing.

[Cagar]

Yes.

[n0rtygames]

I recommend from experience that you should now punch the voice yourself... basically, I've tried this. With point items filling hyper gauge, level 1 hypers become exploitable. Hence I use a DOJ hyper collect to stop instant hyper re use. Then I stopped them rewarding hyper anyway and instead upped the rate of hyper gain for kills/damage and reduced the overall length of the hyper

[n0rtygames]

That said though, I've seen scoring runs on sdoj where this sort of thing happens, so it could be a good thing. I wasn't sure if people would like it

[Giest118]

I understand your points n0rty, but I do believe you've neglected to consider a few key differences between our systems.

1) In Chronoblast, you can continue to charge hypers even during a hyper. In TW3R, both hyper meters are locked empty until the hyper ends.
2) Hypers in TW3R last a longer time. In Chronoblast, if you use a level 1 hyper, you basically get two screen-clears in about five seconds. In TW3R, even with a level 1 hyper, you need to wait for at least twelve seconds for the second screen-clear.
3) It takes 600 point items to get a hyper level. There's, like, five spots in the game where a single screen-clear will single-handedly net you a hyper. And frankly, if you've memorized the game so hard that you can perfectly time your hypers to end at these points, then for my money you deserve to abuse my system. :3
4) I would hazard a guess that the difficulty increase during a hyper is bigger in TW3R than it is in Chronoblast. Although, I might be off on this claim.
5) Most importantly: Level 1 hypers are not that great.

Point 5 is most important for the following reasons:
* Constantly using level 1 hypers for survival is a stupid idea. It means you spend most of the game at increased difficulty, and your firepower hasn't increased that much to compensate. Each hyper increases your overall firepower by about 15%, so are you going to use a level 1 hyper and do 115% damage, or will you wait to build a fifth-level hyper and do 175% damage?
* Constantly using level 1 hypers for score is a stupid idea. Each level of hyper modifies the following things: hits gained from killing enemies (extra 1 per hyper level); points gained from each killed enemy (7000 per hyper level); value of red point items (1000 per hyper level); points-per-frame for grazing bullets (10 per hyper level). Will you use a level 1 hyper and get minimal score benefit for 12 seconds, or will you save up for a level 10 hyper and make your score go fucking nuts for an entire half-minute?



... Yeah, I laid that on a bit thick, but you get the idea. It's important to note the big picture, yes? :3

[n0rtygames]

You didn't lay it on thick, but I think you've drawn conclusions based on a very small sample and seem to be under the misapprehension that these are not things I've tried in the past...

If you're confident that your hyper system wont be abused - go for it. Another difference between our systems is that point blanking yields a significant increase in point items and therefore if I still had point items converting to hyper - it would be retarded.

1. Chronoblast had hyper meters locked during hyper - it was dull. By allowing the hyper gauge to fill - but forcing a collection of the item, you get the best of both worlds.
2. The original timer for hypers was 7 seconds base, + 5 per hyper level (also with point 1)
3. Can't disagree there. There's points like this in Chronoblast too - but I think most people seem to think I've tried to write DoDonPachi and haven't experimented with it (except Emuser)
4. You are entirely off. I turned off a lot of features because Chronoblast was TOO FUCKING HARD, even compared to what it is now.
5. Quite right that they shouldn't be!

What you've got to remember - is you're developing a PC game with various iterations as you go getting constant feedback across not 1, but 4 games. I am not - each release takes at least a week to pass a review process with the possibility of being 'jailed' for a further week if there's a major bug found. Then I need a reasonable sample size to be able to see how people are playing, what people are thinking and then address it accordingly. I play shmups too - some of the choices I made were 'risky' - but I made them for that release. So yes, your post does come across a bit as "Here's everything you've done wrong and here's why Trig is better" in places, though I suspect that's actually not what you mean -- but either way, you should re-read this sentence again and again, then once more for added effect...:>

/* These little symbols are incredibly useful during testing - which is all I consider 1.02 to be - it lets me turn things on or off at will */

- Rank based speed of projectiles? Check. Turned off in 1.02 for the most part.
- Rate of fire increase based on rank? Check. Turned off in 1.02 for the most part.
- Hyper increases rank, HyperLevel+1 during Hyper, -1 at end of hyper. Currently locked at +5 in 1.02, because a level 3 hyper lasts significantly longer.
- Grazing adds to score based on hyper level (level 1 is the same as having no hyper) - turned off in 1.02 because you just can't graze those fuckers effectively.
- Point items used to award hyper. The reward for killing things was pale in comparison to collection due to the amount of collecting that goes on.

Anyway let's be real for a moment dude, if I'd had left locked hyper gain in - a Daifukkatsu Power Style player would've bemoaned it.

I shall repeat, for a tl;dr version as I don't want to hijack your thread:-
If you're confident that your hyper system wont be abused - go for it. Another difference between our systems is that point blanking yields a significant increase in point items and therefore if I still had point items converting to hyper - it would be retarded.


edit : so if you ever decide to do point blanking, which I suspect you either have, or will do at some point - don't do point blanking for shaving items. Make it yield points directly and you can avoid the problems I had..

[n0rtygames]

Also, here's a vid I found of SDOJ where basically - the exact shit I was talking about happens where you just go from one hyper to another. In fact at one point he stacks so many hypers I lost count.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRYTIO_gmwg

As I say, not necessarily saying that's a bad thing. Just at that point in time where I was focussing on the hyper system in my game - I thought people might not really go for this. Turns out I was wrong.

[Giest118]

Yeah, my point wasn't "lolz I'm doing it better," my point was "our games have different dynamics, so what may work as a rule for Chronoblast may not work as a rule for TW3R, and vice versa." :3

[n0rtygames]

Yeah, my point wasn't "lolz I'm doing it better," my point was "our games have different dynamics, so what may work as a rule for Chronoblast may not work as a rule for TW3R, and vice versa." :3

No I know dude. Like I said, I'm sure you didn't even mean it that way -- I probably wouldn't have mentioned it if you hadn't said "I'm probably laying it on a bit thick", as I don't really feel you were.

TBH though, if I were going to compare myself to another game in the dev forum and try to "out-do" it at some point - Trig wars is a very good target to try and aim for. Although I think given recent analysis - I wanna try to break away from the Cave style and perhaps branch out in to other styles.

Yes Psikyo, I'm looking at you... with a bit of Ketsui bullet control in there too, since I already have individual bullet controllers that I'm not using anywhere close to the way I used to.

That Touhou phase of mine was strange...

[Giest118]

Heheh, I appreciate the praise. Now if only as many people would PLAY my games as have played Chronoblast!

[guigui]

Really, I would play Trigo Wars, but just cant.
Am I the only one who do not use his computer for playing ?

[emphatic]

Am I the only one who do not use his computer for playing ?

No, I'd be all over this on my XBox 360.

[Giest118]

That's a shame, because I can't put this on the 360, or any non-PC piece of hardware for that matter.

What's the issue with playing on a computer?

[guigui]

That's a shame, because I can't put this on the 360, or any non-PC piece of hardware for that matter.

What's the issue with playing on a computer?

Issue is me. Computer = work (I'll get back to it in a minute). If I start to play on the computer, I'll never work again.

I totally understand you develop on computers though.

[emphatic]

That's a shame, because I can't put this on the 360, or any non-PC piece of hardware for that matter.

What's the issue with playing on a computer?

For me, it's just inconvenience mainly, followed by the feeling that if my computer's not up to spec, I'm playing the game with different rules than the other people playing it.

[Giest118]

For me, it's just inconvenience mainly, followed by the feeling that if my computer's not up to spec, I'm playing the game with different rules than the other people playing it.

Hm, did you actually play the game and get constant slowdown? Did it only happen during dense patterns or what?

[emphatic]

Hm, did you actually play the game and get constant slowdown? Did it only happen during dense patterns or what?

I haven't played it as I just don't play on PC. I'm about to buy a new laptop this week though, so I'll make sure to try it then.

[Giest118]

So, update for today.

Finally tested every single ending. I could have done that much more quickly, but I wanted to make sure the endings worked properly in actual runs of the game, which meant playing the game in its entirety more than five times.

New changes that have been made:
* The end of a hyper now provides a screen-clear.
* Those square fuckballs in stage 5 who launch a yellow swirly pattern now give a partial-screen clear on death.
* The graze hitbox is now indicated by a faint outline so it's more easy to tell when you're grazing.
* Shortened the popcorn rush at the end of stage 5 by a little over five seconds.
* Halved the effect that hit count has on getting hypers, because that mechanic gets downright hilarious when you get up past 3,000 hits... which can only happen if you've full-chain stage 5, but still.

So, I feel like the game is ready to release now, but I'm gonna hold off for the moment because I have this nagging feeling that I'm forgetting something. It's close though, so don't you all worry!