Fair competitive practice and shoot'em ups

[Gus]

Better said:
Gus I will not take of your scores I just want you read what wrote and think about.
I can't control the way anyone play, I just said my opnions.
This is more like: If you want a total victory over me play in my way.

So your post basically amounts to "Crush my BL Maniac without pausing." Yeah, I think I can do that.

[Bananamatic]

what if I play under the influence of a calming substance

shouldn't everyone take drug tests and post proofs before doing a run then?

[third_strike]

All piss talk, is that about urinary incontinence or pure fear?
And I am sure all understand pause like pause to calm down.

So your post basically amounts to "Crush my BL Maniac without pausing." Yeah, I think I can do that.

Extend it to any game you play against me.

[PROMETHEUS]

Better said:
Gus I will not take of your scores I just want you read what wrote and think about.
I can't control the way anyone play, I just said my opnions.
This is more like: If you want a total victory over me play in my way.

Damn you are cool third_strike :D
Agree with you, said it well again.

BareknuckleRoo, I think you must not have experienced the intense nervousness that can arise during play, especially when you are doing very difficult high scoring stuff with no room for even little mistakes, how difficult it is to control it, how much it affects performance and how much pausing can help alleviate it. That's why it makes sense to talk about it.

When you play Starcraft, you can't ask to pause to relax or take a piss, even answer the phone or whatever, in the middle of a tournament match. Nobody would even think of doing it, it's so disrespectful, not only because you're wasting the other player's time, but because you'd be trying to cover your weakness that the other player doesn't have, and the pause would obviously affect the match.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

You have to pause for whatever reason (taking out the dog) that coincides with it being right before the final boss. It happens that you don't manage to get back to the game to play for at least 15 minutes. According to your logic this would invalidate the run as you would inadvertently have given yourself a chance to 'calm' your nerves, congratulations, real life just fucked over your high score. Seriously?

How the fuck did criticizing a run that clearly used bullet pause-abuse as a pseudo-slowdown turn into "SHMUPS R SERIUS BUIZNESS, NO PAUSE EVAR"?

[PROMETHEUS]

You have to pause for whatever reason (taking out the dog) that coincides with it being right before the final boss. It happens that you don't manage to get back to the game to play for at least 15 minutes. According to your logic this would invalidate the run as you would inadvertently have given yourself a chance to 'calm' your nerves, congratulations, real life just fucked over your high score. Seriously?

Of course yes. For a top score, high level stuff, a 15 minutes pause is a pretty big deal I think. I really would never have allowed myself to do that. I would expect a competitor to behave the same way. I still consider it sort of a grey area for shmups.. but I certainly wouldn't like it if someone beat my DDP score but paused at for 15 minutes at Stage 2-5 because they were too nervous and needed to recompose or something. I don't pause, please don't pause against me. I agree with Third_Strike. And I think the console ports shouldn't allow pauses in "score attack". Also like I said when ShmupMAME was released, it shouldn't allow pause while recording, like WolfMAMEplus doesn't (developped by people who understand competition I guess). Developper's mistake !

How the fuck did criticizing a run that clearly used bullet pause-abuse as a pseudo-slowdown turn into "SHMUPS R SERIUS BUIZNESS, NO PAUSE EVAR"?

This community has been getting more competitive and this event plus some STGT events I've heard of have lead to a broader understanding of things, so interesting discussions are rising up, I think. You should be less aggressive and try to understand people you are talking to, by the way. I understand you, that's why I say it's a grey area, your point of view makes some sense to me. You, on the other hand, are making fun of us thinking differently, even though we are making a lot of sense as well. If you try to understand us, you will learn from our views and become a more useful part of the discussion.

[emphatic]

When I play I never pause, if you wants play againts me please don't pause.
When I get a score higher than yours I post pictures, if you wants play againts me please post a picture when you beat me.
When I get a score higher than yours I post replays, if you wants play againts me please post a replay when you beat me.
This is called respect, I respect you and you respect me.

^^This. Arcade games don't have pause buttons (not counting special DIP switch magic), so why should people playing the ports have different conditions when playing for a higher score (what the save state folks refer to as " full runs" )?

[Plasmo]

All piss talk, is that about urinary incontinence or pure fear?

That one's almost sig-worthy.

[ebarrett]

When I play I never pause, if you wants play againts me please don't pause.
When I get a score higher than yours I post pictures, if you wants play againts me please post a picture when you beat me.
When I get a score higher than yours I post replays, if you wants play againts me please post a replay when you beat me.
This is called respect, I respect you and you respect me.

^^This. Arcade games don't have pause buttons (not counting special DIP switch magic), so why should people playing the ports have different conditions when playing for a higher score (what the save state folks refer to as " full runs" )?

Limitation of both hardware and, mostly (and foremost) business model. As an arcade enthusiast, you should understand, but as a PCB fetishist, you probably can't understand, right?

I don't like pausing, mind you. I find it impossible to get back into a run if I stop it for whatever reason.

[K.B.]

Your board, your rules.

Then the entire subforum is slowly becoming a dictatorship of Despatche.

[PROMETHEUS]

Your board, your rules.

Then the entire subforum is slowly becoming a dictatorship of Despatche.

I almost reacted to this exact quote by Gus in the same way. We must have similar political views, K.B. ;)

[Hagane]

ebarret:

Most fighting game tournaments right now are run in consoles, and pausing at a tournament instantly makes you lose the round.

I agree about pausing being unfair (gives you more time and calm down and read patterns better, among other things), but unless you make live streams mandatory it would be pretty hard to enforce. Unless the community makes a special standardized version of MAME like MARP does, removing features like pausing, frame skipping, etc. and default competitive settings (lives, graphic options such as blitters, etc) and making it the only way to validate your runs. That would still leave out non-MAME games, but it would be a start at least.

[Erppo]

People should try to calm down and think for a bit, stuff is getting all kinds of stupid.

I agree to the sentiment of wanting the community to "evolve" or "grow up" when it comes to scoreplay. The pause thing however is the last thing that should take any focus. There were some very good points about respect and providing proof of results that people ignored or forgot for some reason.

I cannot see pausing outside of obvious cheating purposes as something that should be given any attention. I'm frankly surprised to see this coming from anyone else than the certain people who need to think of excuses when they can't keep up with the competition.

[PROMETHEUS]

Unless the community makes a special standardized version of MAME like MARP does, removing features like pausing, frame skipping, etc. and default competitive settings (lives, graphic options such as blitters, etc) and making it the only way to validate your runs. That would still leave out non-MAME games, but it would be a start at least.

It's already there, just need the more recent MAME versions to have the features applied to them. WolfMAMEplus99 can't play DOJ, Ketsui, etc.. and it has 1 more frame of lag compared to ShmupMAME.

[Bananamatic]

imo the run is still way too ridiculous to be made just by pausing

[ebarrett]

Most fighting game tournaments right now are run in consoles, and pausing at a tournament instantly makes you lose the round.

Are you seriously comparing single-player games to versus games? I admit there could, maybe, eventually be an argument to be made over the issue but this is just completely bogus.

[Hagane]

If you are competing against somebody else, it's not really a pure single player game anymore.

[emphatic]

Limitation of both hardware and, mostly (and foremost) business model. As an arcade enthusiast, you should understand, but as a PCB fetishist, you probably can't understand, right?

Sure, I love my PCB's, but my point is this:

Save states (yes even for training) give an unfair advantage over those who play the games as they are designed to be played (no pause buttons or time-efficient jumps to practice the hard parts and some "fetishists" (LOL) even consider credit feeding the games to get the complete picture of what to expect later on is cheating as well. This is why I no longer post my scores here, because I then have to compete against those who sit hours on end and train hard parts of the game yet can post their scores in the same boards as me. This is also why I don't compete in STGT anymore. It really kills the fun for me.

I have nothing against PROMETHEUS, gus or anyone else who use training modes, save states etc, but we don't compete by the same rules. See?

[BareKnuckleRoo]

I cannot see pausing outside of obvious cheating purposes as something that should be given any attention. I'm frankly surprised to see this coming from anyone else than the certain people who need to think of excuses when they can't keep up with the competition.

^

Is there anyone who enjoys shmups and has something like arthritis? I haven't heard of a case like this, but banning any sort of pausing whatsoever if they literally did need to take a break in between stages would basically limit them from actual competition, despite how good they may be when actually playing.

Banning all pauses whatsoever smacks of 'black and white' absolute fanaticism when really the players who actually care about the genre ought to know when what they're doing is or isn't really legit (pause-abuse, pausing repeatedly to look up what boss pattern comes next, etc). Really though, even if you pause occasionally, it still doesn't remove the need for the player to have the skill to actually navigate the bullet patterns (which is why pseudo slowdown via rapid pausing is bullshit to such a huge degree).

[Zerst]

We're all opinionated here, and mine is this: whether someone cheats or not is of little concern to me. I find myself caring more about how someone presents themselves and how they choose to support the community, rather than how seriously we decide to compete against each other. Perhaps it's because I'm just a mediocre player, myself, but this is a friendly hobby for me. If someone cheats and gets away with it, shame on them, but if they give enough back, I'm content waiting for them to make a mistake and get caught, rather than propogating witch hunts.

In this case, it was reasonably clear to anyone who saw the run that it was not a natural display of skill, and when called out, the videos were removed and Vixy gave really shaky responses. If he/she were to be upfront, and respect/support the community. Then I'd be fine with that.

At the same time, while I agree with the idea that I'd love to see videos from sikraiken, I think that that issue is on the other side of the fence, as he hasn't shown tangible evidence of shenanigans. I feel sorry that third_strike decided to intentionally falsify a score to try proving a point that didn't need to be made. I'd rather see people support those who do go the extra step than disrespect those who don't, under the assumption of guilt.

[PROMETHEUS]

Most fighting game tournaments right now are run in consoles, and pausing at a tournament instantly makes you lose the round.

Are you seriously comparing single-player games to versus games?

Think a little more and understand why it makes sense. Instead of focusing on what makes the games so different, try thinking of all they have in common. That's where you'll find the reasons why we're talking about this and why this example isn't that terrible. If you want to argue against the example, give arguments instead of a blunt "r u serious" reply. His example is good for one thing at least : we can see that the official console version's system is flawed, since in the context of competition hitting the button that links to an unwanted feature that is immediately abusive. This is directly a useful example because here we have "Scoring Attack" modes that are designed with the ability to pause, that is a problem, and we should find out how to deal with it. For that, looking at how other communities have dealt with a similar problem is good !

[Erppo]

Save states (yes even for training) give an unfair advantage over those who play the games as they are designed to be played (no pause buttons or time-efficient jumps to practice the hard parts

The ports of those game were obviously designed to be played different than the way they were designed to be played then. You're only making excuses for yourself here, people get better scores than anyone here by playing the games only in arcades which shows that skill and experience, not practice tools, is the main thing that matters here.

[ebarrett]

If you are competing against somebody else, it's not really a pure single player game anymore.

No it's not, but you're not throwing off the other guy, breaking his concentration, gaining time directly over someone who is likely putting immediate pressure, it's a completely different thing, if you fail to understand this I'm sorry but you just don't understand both shmups AND fighting games.

Limitation of both hardware and, mostly (and foremost) business model. As an arcade enthusiast, you should understand, but as a PCB fetishist, you probably can't understand, right?

Sure, I love my PCB's, but my point is this:

Save states (yes even for training) give an unfair advantage over those who play the games as they are designed to be played (no pause buttons or time-efficient jumps to practice the hard parts and some "fetishists" (LOL) even consider credit feeding the games to get the complete picture of what to expect later on is cheating as well. This is why I no longer post my scores here, because I then have to compete against those who sit hours on end and train hard parts of the game yet can post their scores in the same boards as me. This is also why I don't compete in STGT anymore. It really kills the fun for me.

I have nothing against PROMETHEUS, gus or anyone else who use training modes, save states etc, but we don't compete by the same rules. See?

Sorry, I can't not compare this to some old geezer who hates everything that showed up on the planet after some arbitrary nostalgia threshold. You fantasize about something that, in most of the world, is long gone, and when it existed, and where it still exists, works in that way you see as the only pure true way because it's a freakin' business model, if the guy has to take a dump or answer a phonecall during a run, there are other people in line ready to spend their money on that goddamn' cab

edit: also, what erppo said

[PROMETHEUS]

I have nothing against PROMETHEUS, gus or anyone else who use training modes, save states etc, but we don't compete by the same rules. See?

I think you completely misunderstand competition. Here is what we are competing about : best score executed in a run of the same game.

This is the object of the competition, the way you practice is a separate thing. You might draw stuff on paper, watch videos, make a training program that produces similar patterns, talk to other players... Whatever you can do to get better is good for you. You refuse to use save states for practicing, even though it is available to you. Ok. But in the end, we come to our game and play in the exact same condition, and we win. Because we practiced better.

Does a soccer player practice only playing full matches ?
Nor does a tennis player. Nor does a starcraft player. Nor does a Quake player. Nor does a chess player. Nor does a guitar player. Nor does anyone who wants to learn performing anything difficult. Nor should you, if what you really want is get really good.

[emphatic]

The ports of those game were obviously designed to be played different than the way they were designed to be played then. You're only making excuses for yourself here, people get better scores than anyone here by playing the games only in arcades which shows that skill and experience, not practice tools, is the main thing that matters here.

Or is it you making excuses to justify the use of save states as it's way easier to improve in the games?

Player A and player B has a similar skill set and are both playing the same game for one week.

Player A is playing the game in MAME and has access to save states but has the choice to play full runs whenever he wants to.
Player B is playing the PCB and is only capable of doing full runs (unless he suffers from restartitis) so he has to use lots of time to practice the final stages by actually reaching them.

Is the above scenario fair competition? Please no "player B is an idiot for playing on original hardware" replies. Available play time is part of the equation obviously.

[ShadowWraith]

I think this stuff should be split from the thread because it's quite clearly not meant to be here. The original drama has been cleared up.

[Hagane]

Savestates and practice modes give you no skill advantage. They just speed your learning process, but they don't make you any better per se.

Or is it you making excuses to justify the use of save states as it's way easier to improve in the games?

I'll be blunt here, but I'm pretty sure you would not beat PROMETHEUS, Erppo or Gus even if you used savestates or practice modes. Again, they don't alter your skill, they just make you waste less time.

No it's not, but you're not throwing off the other guy, breaking his concentration, gaining time directly over someone who is likely putting immediate pressure, it's a completely different thing, if you fail to understand this I'm sorry but you just don't understand both shmups AND fighting games.

I'm pretty sure I understand fighting games rather well. I can prove it to you any day at GGPO or Supercade in Super Turbo if the pings allow.

As PROM said, you are just focusing in one aspect. The thing both examples have in common is that they give you extra advantages in a competitive environment. Yeah you can't throw off the other player because you aren't playing directly against him, but you are still competing against someone else and getting an advantage over them.

Now, it's obvious that someone like Gus would be able to get great scores no matter what, but it's also clear that pausing can be used to get extra advantages and and make things easier for someone else.

[trap15]

This is my favorite thread on the entire forum

[ebarrett]

I'm pretty sure I understand fighting games rather well. I can prove it to you any day at GGPO or Supercade in Super Turbo if the pings allow.

Being good at them doesn't automatically mean you understand them - certainly not when you can't tell the difference between a fighting game and a shmup. I can't play a fighting game to save my life, but I know that they're different things. You apparently do not, or are unwilling to show that you do.

[wit]

Japanese top players who play their runs on pcb's also have access to MAME / console ports for practice and from what I've heard many of them do that too. Also I remember hearing about TAC and some other top players getting specialized pcb's which allow save states to practice for the Ketsui DVD. tldr; if you don't use the tools available for practice, that's your own fault but don't expect others to do the same.