How would you feel about PC releases of Cave games?

[AntiFritz]

I'm a little confused about why people are so annoyed by one PM... I do hope it doesn't start a trend though.

I must be the only one that got the same PM twice then.

Maybe you are, I only got one.

[O. Van Bruce]

I'm a little confused about why people are so annoyed by one PM... I do hope it doesn't start a trend though.

I must be the only one that got the same PM twice then.

I sent the messages in 2 rows... maybe you were in the middle and I accidentaly sent the PM to the last person of the first row (you) twice

[Friendly]

I don't want to have to play Cave games on PC. On a console, you don't have compatibility issues, you won't have to keep some old OS/hardware around years from now in order to still be able to run them the way they did when they were first released. Each Cave shooter that was released on 360 will always run perfectly on every 360, there is no problem with them not running smoothly or lag, nor are there any hardware/software compatibility issues. All you need is a working console and the game disc, and you get an experience that is 100% identical every time, totally hassle-free.

And thanks but no thanks to digital distribution. I want to actually own the things I buy.

So this is my opinion regarding this matter: I don't care one way or the other as long as there are still physical console releases.

[Nasirosuchus]

I don't want to have to play Cave games on PC. On a console, you don't have compatibility issues, you won't have to keep some old OS/hardware around years from now in order to still be able to run them the way they did when they were first released. Each Cave shooter that was released on 360 will always run perfectly on every 360, there is no problem with them not running smoothly or lag, nor are there any hardware/software compatibility issues. All you need is a working console and the game disc, and you get an experience that is 100% identical every time, totally hassle-free.

These are STG's, not the latest first-person shooters or MMORPG's. It doesn't require a stacked gaming rig with the latest and greatest hardware to run a shmup. Any computer out there can run shmups from today or even from 20 years ago with no issues.

With console releases you're stuck with playing it only on that console. A PC release gives you the freedom to play it on any PC you want or take it on the go if you have a laptop.

you won't have to keep some old OS/hardware around years from now in order to still be able to run them the way they did when they were first released

You must be joking because that's EXACTLY what you have to do with console releases .

[Ed Oscuro]

And thanks but no thanks to digital distribution. I want to actually own the things I buy.

Another "this is happening whether you like it or not" comment to stack on to the end of Nasiro's post.

[Nasirosuchus]

The people who keep going on and on about input lag and hardware optimization are using MAME as the basis for this. The problem with that argument is that MAME is emulation. Games can be coded to run on PC's in the same way that they're coded to run on consoles. If these games can be coded to run on smartphones, then there's no reason that the same can't be done for PC's. Shmups simply aren't resource hungry games, so everything from netbooks to the most high-end gaming rigs would have no problem running them as we've already seen.

[Ed Oscuro]

No, it's not just MAME. Input lag has been seen a lot more recently in many PC games. Some of them are poorly done ports of console games; other times it's due to graphics drivers or screen buffering that trades speed for reducing screen tearing, and some of it is for even more obscure reasons. Sure, because we are here on a forum where MAME is super important, you're going to see a lot of comparisons to MAME. But blaming comparisons to MAME for input lag worries is too simple. The Ootake author claims that Windows 7 has higher lag than XP but that is likely a combination of some other settings.

Of course, it's worth noting that apparently the 360 and PS3 have some input lag themselves (a bit higher on the PS3 reportedly), but it's easier for users in that they don't have to worry about trying to troubleshoot input lag on those premade boxes. People aren't fated to have horrible input lag on a PC but it is beyond the technical capability or knowledge of some to figure it out.

[Nasirosuchus]

No, it's not just MAME. Input lag has been seen a lot more recently in many PC games. Some of them are poorly done ports of console games; other times it's due to graphics drivers or screen buffering that trades speed for reducing screen tearing, and some of it is for even more obscure reasons. Sure, because we are here on a forum where MAME is super important, you're going to see a lot of comparisons to MAME. But blaming comparisons to MAME for input lag worries is too simple. The Ootake author claims that Windows 7 has higher lag than XP but that is likely a combination of some other settings.

Of course, it's worth noting that apparently the 360 and PS3 have some input lag themselves (a bit higher on the PS3 reportedly), but it's easier for users in that they don't have to worry about trying to troubleshoot input lag on those premade boxes. People aren't fated to have horrible input lag on a PC but it is beyond the technical capability or knowledge of some to figure it out.

The average gamer isn't going to notice input lag unless it makes the game entirely unplayable. The purists on this forum will notice it because they're looking for it, but even I don't really notice it unless, again, it renders the game entirely unplayable. Besides, you've said it yourself. Even consoles have some degree of input lag.

This is why my main point was more about hardware optimization. Considering that shmups don't require a whole lot of horsepower, there won't be any issues. When we look at titles that require a lot of power to emulate such as the Cave SH3, Atomiswave, and PS2 titles, that wouldn't be a problem with PC ports. Games like Espgaluda II, Mushi Futari, Metal Slug 6, and Gradius V would run fine on the average PC.

[trap15]

The issue with optimization is that every PC is different, and a lot of them require completely different optimizations. Hell, I know that lots of code that works on ATI video cards completely shits itself on nVidia cards, and vice-versa. There's no way to test all the multitude of combinations. In addition to that, the software stack for PCs is ridiculously abstracted, to the point where a lot of things are way too difficult to do (a good example is fucking refresh rate synchronization).

Again, it would take far too much time and resources and money for Cave to do proper PC ports, and I don't believe it's in their best interest; I doubt they'd even break even if they did.

[Op Intensify]

Is there really anything Cave, or anyone can do with hardcore shmups anymore that's financially viable? How well have the smartphone ports sold?

[Obiwanshinobi]

The average gamer isn't going to notice input lag unless it makes the game entirely unplayable.

Back when I had been using an LCD and wasn't quite as bolshy about framerates as I am now, I would very much notice input lag in first person shooters and all such games with point & click interfaces whenever it was there.
I'm pretty sure that if some peope play first person shooters with joypads on their PCs, it's because the mouse controls are not properly optimised (too much acceleration, whereas no acceleration whatsoever should be always an option).
What I'm trying to say is that whether or not you look for and can name such nuances, any serious attempt at playing a game will reveal them.
Have anybody play Gate of Thunder and Eliminate Down for a day, then ask him or her which one handles better. The latter is likely to be the choice, although the former is far from unplayable.

Again, it would take far too much time and resources and money for Cave to do proper PC ports, and I don't believe it's in their best interest; I doubt they'd even break even if they did.

Cave did some competent programming for the PC (Shin MegaTen: Imagine, also, isn't the system DSII runs on practically a PC?). I can't believe porting those humble 2D shmups to the PCs would be that much trouble. Doujin devs do this kind of programming all the time.

[trap15]

I can't believe porting those humble 2D shmups to the PCs would be that much trouble.

Let me direct you to this:

The titles on SH-3 hardware (particularly ones written by IKD) all use the same basic hardware abstraction in code. For the 360 and iOS ports, they rewrote the abstraction for the particular platform. Now, this abstraction isn't exactly small. It contains all the interface with the hardware; from the graphics to the input to the sound. So they would have to write a whole new audio subsystem, a whole new graphics subsystem and a whole new input subsystem. The abstractions are not simple layers over the hardware either; they're pretty intensely bound to whatever hardware they are running on. It would take quite a while to re-port this architecture again (they already did it thrice; once for the original, again for 360, and another for iOS). It's a lot of work.

If you want a port of a non-IKD SH-3 game, you're even less likely to get a port, since they don't use the same abstraction that IKD's do and would require yet another entire abstraction rewrite. If you want a port of anything older than SH-3, you're basically screwed, because they were written with a lot of hand-written assembly code, which is completely non-portable to PC. They'd basically have to rewrite the whole game.

Doujin devs do this kind of programming all the time.

Not really; Doujin devs start from scratch and write everything based around the PC, basically. Porting is far different than starting from scratch, unless you are rewriting the entire game.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

The people who keep going on and on about input lag and hardware optimization are using MAME as the basis for this.

I didn't I had Jamestown (and the non stg Magicka) in mind since that is the closest PC has to a CAVE shmup with fullscreen HD sprites and backgrounds, DDP style exploation and crater sprites rather than effects seen in many doujins. I remember when JT first launched, the devs had a job and half getting that to run smoothly on different hardware. I personally had trouble with the slowdown of the last boss.

Considering most of us here would buy a CAVE shmup near launch, I can see more than a few folk here who are used to console would be rattled waiting for CAVE to iron out the bugs, optimise for different hardware etc.

Is there really anything Cave, or anyone can do with hardcore shmups anymore that's financially viable? How well have the smartphone ports sold?

Imo there isnt that many new titles the genre can support atleast on XBLA, it isnt like there is a captive online scene that is forever upgrading to the latest iteration like you get with FPS and fighters. So every new shmup has to compete with whatever else is available. We are already seeing reviewers moaning that they are sick of buying shooters on xbla and iphone. There's Steam but there is a fuckton of doujin shmups waiting to flood the market.

CAVE is the Capcom of STG and ppl do take notice of their games so that will amount to something atleast. If / when they finally ditch SH3, Hopefully it'll be something thats easy to port to different systems.

The issue with optimization is that every PC is different, and a lot of them require completely different optimizations. Hell, I know that lots of code that works on ATI video cards completely shits itself on nVidia cards, and vice-versa. There's no way to test all the multitude of combinations. In addition to that, the software stack for PCs is ridiculously abstracted, to the point where a lot of things are way too difficult to do (a good example is fucking refresh rate synchronization).

You would think that in this day and age, Nvidia and AMD / ATI would actually have better standardisation with their hardware rather than still be fighting this BS compatabilty battle where a game is optimised cheifly for one and not the other.

[AuraDRGN]

i dont always play CAVE games on Pc
But when i do i search the pirated version of it and play it for free

[Ed Oscuro]

The issue with optimization is that every PC is different, and a lot of them require completely different optimizations. Hell, I know that lots of code that works on ATI video cards completely shits itself on nVidia cards, and vice-versa. There's no way to test all the multitude of combinations. In addition to that, the software stack for PCs is ridiculously abstracted, to the point where a lot of things are way too difficult to do (a good example is fucking refresh rate synchronization).

You would think that in this day and age, Nvidia and AMD / ATI would actually have better standardisation with their hardware rather than still be fighting this BS compatabilty battle where a game is optimised cheifly for one and not the other.

How would they plan for survival against each other and Intel if they didn't have something to differentiate their products?

Also, be careful not to confuse standardization with speed. A lot of the slowness and lag we are complaining about is there because of the standardization meant to mediate between different types of hardware and software found in different computer configurations.

I understand that for a long time Microsoft OSes have disallowed direct access to most hardware resources (and this isn't just DirectX, but also things like hard drive access - where it shouldn't matter as much to a game, and then the abstraction is relatively welcome). You get glimpses of direct access now and then (i.e. raw mouse input being used in Source engine titles) but for the most part on the PC you're forced to allow the APIs to do most of the work. I didn't realize that Cave was drilling down to that level of access for their ports - that's really impressive. In practice it's not necessarily much of a problem, but it does set up a different (farther) baseline. I think that the varying refresh rates and resolutions are a major problem for Cave as well - even on iOS I think the refresh rates are pretty uniform from device to device. Ditto 360.

I think that ultimately they're becoming, in the shmup space, a victim of their own success at overspecializing to please one group of customers. But it's not my place to tell them to compromise.

[Matskat]

I don't want to have to play Cave games on PC. On a console, you don't have compatibility issues, you won't have to keep some old OS/hardware around years from now in order to still be able to run them the way they did when they were first released. Each Cave shooter that was released on 360 will always run perfectly on every 360, there is no problem with them not running smoothly or lag, nor are there any hardware/software compatibility issues. All you need is a working console and the game disc, and you get an experience that is 100% identical every time, totally hassle-free.

And thanks but no thanks to digital distribution. I want to actually own the things I buy.

So this is my opinion regarding this matter: I don't care one way or the other as long as there are still physical console releases.

That's the beauty of multiplatform distribution. You don't HAVE to play it on PC!

I'm actually kind of annoyed that I see so many with this attitude.
Nobody says that if Cave were to publish on PC , IN ADDITION to arcade, Xbox, Vita, DS, etc that YOU will be forced to play on a PC...

Do you think before you post? It's ANOTHER OPTION....

Somebody please , for the sake of everyone's sanity, clarify in the OP that the vote is for PC distro IN ADDITION to their already established distro.

Man, I'm crabby today

[Mills]

Dunno where all this hate is coming from but i personally don't see the harm to release a pc port.

[O. Van Bruce]

That's the beauty of multiplatform distribution. You don't HAVE to play it on PC!

I'm actually kind of annoyed that I see so many with this attitude.
Nobody says that if Cave were to publish on PC , IN ADDITION to arcade, Xbox, Vita, DS, etc that YOU will be forced to play on a PC...

Do you think before you post? It's ANOTHER OPTION....

Somebody please , for the sake of everyone's sanity, clarify in the OP that the vote is for PC distro IN ADDITION to their already established distro.

Man, I'm crabby today

Code: Select all

We are not asking from Cave to go Full Digital distribution nor to stop selling and developing their console ports, there are a lot of games released on Steam that also have physical copies on the market. I'm also an owner of and XBOX 360. But, as one of the employees of Cave mentioned (please excuse me for not remembering his name) “focusing on a sole platform has lost its meaning (...) we are going to focus where the customers are”.

It's on the first post... dunno why they haven't got the idea...

[kid aphex]

Obviously I want Cave to succeed. In fact, I've been asking for Cave on Steam for 3 years now.

Still...
It may seem small minded, but I'm kind of worried about the crowd that Steam would bring to the genre. Not so much in terms of personality, but in terms of sheer number. Part of the reason I like shmups so much is because their place on the fringe of the industry affords them significant freedom to develop 'horizontally'. I worry a larger fan base would dull that evolution.

[trap15]

The reason people (myself included) would pick the bottom two (and I recommend the 2nd to last for this reason), is because it's not financially viable for Cave to do such a thing. Read my multitude of posts for why I believe so.

[O. Van Bruce]

The reason people (myself included) would pick the bottom two (and I recommend the 2nd to last for this reason), is because it's not financially viable for Cave to do such a thing. Read my multitude of posts for why I believe so.

Yeah... and WE should be worrying about their financial problems... if anything, is up to then to decide what is viable and what is not.

[trap15]

I think assaulting them with emails of "please port your stuff to PC" when it isn't financially viable isn't exactly helpful though.

[O. Van Bruce]

I think assaulting them with emails of "please port your stuff to PC" when it isn't financially viable isn't exactly helpful though.

Yeah, but it isn't bad for then... it's not going to make then lose money just by receiving our e-mails or anything.

[Op Intensify]

It may seem small minded, but I'm kind of worried about the crowd that Steam would bring to the genre. Not so much in terms of personality, but in terms of sheer number. Part of the reason I like shmups so much is because their place on the fringe of the industry affords them significant freedom to develop 'horizontally'. I worry a larger fan base would dull that evolution.

Based on everything I've read on this forum and elsewhere, this really should be the least of your worries.

[xbl0x180]

Obviously I want Cave to succeed. In fact, I've been asking for Cave on Steam for 3 years now.

Still...
It may seem small minded, but I'm kind of worried about the crowd that Steam would bring to the genre. Not so much in terms of personality, but in terms of sheer number. Part of the reason I like shmups so much is because their place on the fringe of the industry affords them significant freedom to develop 'horizontally'. I worry a larger fan base would dull that evolution.

So... you want shoot-'em-up developers to be unpopular and/or unsuccessful

[Drum]

Obviously I want Cave to succeed. In fact, I've been asking for Cave on Steam for 3 years now.

Still...
It may seem small minded, but I'm kind of worried about the crowd that Steam would bring to the genre. Not so much in terms of personality, but in terms of sheer number. Part of the reason I like shmups so much is because their place on the fringe of the industry affords them significant freedom to develop 'horizontally'. I worry a larger fan base would dull that evolution.

This is so bizarre because the exact opposite is true. fyi.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

How would they plan for survival against each other and Intel if they didn't have something to differentiate their products?

Also, be careful not to confuse standardization with speed. A lot of the slowness and lag we are complaining about is there because of the standardization meant to mediate between different types of hardware and software found in different computer configurations.

Coming from my own viewpoint as a non programmer user, i'm fine with one GFX card having unique features like Nvidia's PhysX, but both chipset makers should do more to ensure any game is graphical bug and glitch free. I know much of this rests with the game devs but the chip and driver makers could always do more. Although I understand that there might be no easy answer for chip & driver makers who need to ensure backwards compatability without adding too many layers of programming which is probably just the thing CAVE and MAME devs dont want.

I think that ultimately they're becoming, in the shmup space, a victim of their own success at overspecializing to please one group of customers. But it's not my place to tell them to compromise.

Imo CAVE is probably the best shmup dev for putting as much broad appeal into their games. Even though they just make bullet hell their best games have many modes including novice and SD res arcade mode with DS & Futari. Just about anybody can have fun with DS, Futari and DFK, and touch negates much of the difficulty of bulletdodging. Infact its quite amazing how they've managed to be even this successfull in the iphone market. If only CAVE could successfully bring their iphone fans and the hardcore shmuppers together, I honestly think it would create a better STG community.

[gs68]

Honestly I don't mind if CAVE pulls out of the arcade industry and becomes consumer software only. Let's face it, no one--both press and consumers--gives a shit about current arcades anymore, unless they're fighting game parlors.

If CAVE went back to arcades only they'd alienate the rather sizable overseas fanbase they've developed. To most people, $30-50 for a disc is a more sensible idea than $1000 for a printed circuit board that has the same amount of content.

[Illyrian]

Honestly I don't mind if CAVE pulls out of the arcade industry and becomes consumer software only. Let's face it, no one--both press and consumers--gives a shit about current arcades anymore, unless they're fighting game parlors.

If CAVE went back to arcades only they'd alienate the rather sizable overseas fanbase they've developed. To most people, $30-50 for a disc is a more sensible idea than $1000 for a printed circuit board that has the same amount of content.

Less content, due to lack of arrange modes/training mode etc.

[Cagar]

-