Why do you suppose people can't make great shmups anymore?

[banjoted]

See, you're just doing the "muh opinion" thing. There is no value in anyone's opinion about things that are supposed to be based in fact, and there is negative value in people accusing someone trying to point this out of supposedly doing the same thing. It's so tiring dealing with that from people who are just completely unwilling to imagine that it's actually possible to be right or wrong about very fundamental and very obvious shit.

I did read your wall of text and honestly did mostly just find a lot of opinion, and not the sacrosanct and indisputable wisdom I was promised. I suspect that's why, despite how many times you angrily impart them, your thoughts aren't sticking in the way you seem to want.

Not I thought all your opinions were bad, but bro, where's this anger coming from? A lot of the stuff you're furious about unavoidably can mostly only be assessed in subjective terms I'm afraid. But that's OK dude!

[Bassa-Bassa]

If a game has great gameplay, the quality of every other element does not matter.

I stopped reading there.

[Despatche]

Of course you did, you see the one god damned rule about video games that has ever made any sense, and you want to deny it. You want to claim I'm trying to say that Kenta Cho games are good enough for anyone, an argument I have seen one too many times to actually take seriously anymore.

Bro, aren't you calling games shit and saying people are playing them for the wrong reasons? You're not saying "I don't like compile, the games aren't for me" or "I don't like thunder force, the games aren't for me."

Yes! That's the whole point! I'm not telling people wotifink, I'm telling people to be cautious around these older games that they praise so much. And don't try to claim they are, because they're clearly not, as just this thread alone has shown.

But do you really think a) a shmup forum will be full of those kinds of people or b) that people would be playing games (repeatedly) where they think the gameplay is awful?

The problem is quite a bit worse than that. One of the biggest issues with this forum is that people here don't play these games they talk so much about period.

I still haven't heard what's bad about Thunder Force AC.

I already covered TFAC, I said it's one of the better games. The biggest issues with it are things like "it's too easy" and "it basically requires autofire to enjoy", which are pretty minor compared to the problems in a lot of the "classics" out there.

Why would I play a game that looks mediocre or bad for "the experience."

You seem to think your personal experience and taste can discredit a general rule. Unfortunately, games like Sine Mora, Super Galaxy Squadron, early Raiden, and all these trashy Compile games exist, beloved by the majority of people who have ever heard those names, purely because of their presentation.

It's not complicated from where I sit.

None of what I've said is complicated at all.

Sure. Not very relevant to what I was talking about though. I'm only interested in your horrible fallible opinions and not whatever you're trying to pass off as objectivity.

So you deny it but then admit it in the same sentence, I see.

It sounds like you have some grand argument to redeem Darius II or whatever. Well, let's hear it if you got it.

But whether a more polished title is definitively superior is another question entirely - it honestly seems like you're trying to pass it off as an objective truth when it's really just an interesting difference between both titles that make the old and the new intensely fascinating to play today.

Right, so you're just going to downplay real issues. Why even reply then? There is a microscopic line between that type of thinking and the type of thinking that repeatedly leads people to ignore "mediocre" gameplay in favor of "great" presentation. I'm not even demanding for any specific game to be perfect. I'm just asking people to be aware of how dumb games can really get, and to hope for genuinely better games in the future.

I don't know why you keep throwing this "redundant" thing around. I'm not telling people to never play the original Darius again. I'm just saying that these people who seem to think that DBAC is so trashy and that the older games are better are full of shit, and that this happens with a lot of older series that get newer releases; Raiden is treated the same.

When someone realizes how completely pointless Darius branching paths are, and try to make a game that replaces this system with something smarter, I don't want to see people get furious over the removal of this broken mechanic. I saw this shit go down with Raiden V; people here got so furious over the fact that the game dared to add a lifebar, because they had been conditioned for years to hate on lifebars no matter what, completely forgetting the reasons why.

This is a really unnecessary paragraph that only seeks to perpetuate a self fulfilling blind fanboy prophecy that isn't here in this thread.

I have had to put up with nonsense like this many times all across the internet, the second I dare to vouch for any game that people claim to dislike. I have been called a "contrarian" one too many times for telling people that they're just wrong about something. And please don't come at me with the "watch your tone" bullshit, I'm tired of hearing that. I've been putting up with this shit for too long to be "nice" about this anymore.

I doubt being positive would have fared much better in this specific scenario

The other day you were trying to tell me that playing Mega Man like you're Shinya Arino is Good Actually, when there's an entire TV series (that covers way more than just Mega Man) about why that's a spectacularly bad idea. You say a lot of really weird things like that, it amazes me.

Patchy-kun you have an obligation to your talent to make these videos happen (■｀w´■)

I'd like to at least try if I can pull myself out of the bullshit I'm in now. Influencers or not, people seem to simply appreciate video/voice more than text. A sad thing to consider for text FAQs and wikis and such, but it is what it is.

You know... I still stand by it. What was the last truly great shmup?

Have you not played a single shmup made in the past decade?

It's real easy to recommend Crimzon Clover and M-KAI stuff, as far as the last decade goes. Infinos Gaiden, Hydorah, and Vritra would also go on that list; there's a reason those games got picked for exA.

I did read your wall of text and honestly did mostly just find a lot of opinion, and not the sacrosanct and indisputable wisdom I was promised. I suspect that's why, despite how many times you angrily impart them, your thoughts aren't sticking in the way you seem to want.

Not I thought all your opinions were bad, but bro, where's this anger coming from? A lot of the stuff you're furious about unavoidably can mostly only be assessed in subjective terms I'm afraid. But that's OK dude!

Right, so you see the problem for exactly what it is, and you deny it because you have that opportunity. You completely ignore how everyone talks about any creative work in the entirety of history, and you just write off any attempt to point this out as "well this guy's obviously just mad about his taste like anyone else". You also throw out the same "sage" bullshit everyone else does, no matter how much I beg people to fucking stop with that shit. It's so fucking obvious that you truly do not care about any of this shit on a fundamental level, so why stick around?

[Bassa-Bassa]

video games

[harborline765]

And please don't come at me with the "watch your tone" bullshit, I'm tired of hearing that. I've been putting up with this shit for too long to be "nice" about this anymore.

Oh the irony.

[Despatche]

Where's the irony? A lot of people misuse that word, you probably are too.

You tried to come up with this elaborate narrative about self-fulfilling prophecies. I explained to you that bullshit. And here you are, denying even that. Stop fucking replying if you're just gonna be like that.

video games

Yeah, video games. And? You think board games and sports can't be dumb too? Do you have any idea how many times someone has tried to "improve" chess over the years, for better or worse? Do you have any idea how many "sportsball" jokes there are around in society?

[harborline765]

Where's the irony? A lot of people misuse that word, you probably are too.

"don't you dare tell me to watch my tone" => telling someone to watch their tone. Or maybe you were aware of that already, in which case yes, there is no irony.

Just more posting in bad faith. Which, as I pointed out, becomes a self fulfilling prophecy to fuel the very thing you oppose. Good job.

[Despatche]

Oh that's so fucking stupid, I can't believe you actually spout that shit. You want to downplay real issues and write them off as simple preference, then ever speak of "bad faith" about anyone. What a load of garbage. Fuck outta here with that shit.

[harborline765]

Oh that's so fucking stupid, I can't believe you actually spout that shit. You want to downplay real issues and write them off as simple preference, then ever speak of "bad faith" about anyone. What a load of garbage. Fuck outta here with that shit.

You can't seriously believe you weren't posting in bad faith with the language and aggressive tone you've used over the past couple of days. If you want to make a point you can do so in a constructive manner.

The fact that you haven't been - in fact you've actively been trying to stir up sh*t - is the very definition of posting in bad faith, and I can't believe you think otherwise.

[Despatche]

You were never in this "debate" to begin with. You genuinely came here in bad faith. I tried to answer you anyway, and you didn't like the answer. I ask again: why stick around?

The entire "watch your tone" thing has always been misdirection. It's like this whole thing about presentation except much worse: what you're actually saying never matters, only how you say it. You can say absolute lies, and people will listen because you said them in a way they "agree" with. God knows how long humans have been at that.

Well, here you are, trying to tell me that I'm a bad actor because I happen to be angry about something I actually care about. What a fucking surprise. Next I'm going to get people telling me to "cool off" about a longstanding issue that gets worse every year, because that happens a lot too. But sure, tell me I'm just looking for "self-fulfilling prophecies" that have already been slung at me too many times to count.

[harborline765]

You were never in this "debate" to begin with. You genuinely came here in bad faith. I tried to answer you anyway, and you didn't like the answer. I ask again: why stick around?

Who said I didn't like the answer? I liked your answer since you elaborated on why you felt DariusBurst improved on the older titles. I didn't agree with the conclusion you drew (that it's unequivocally better), and that's fine.

What I did not like is how you treat other users here and assume the worst from them, like claiming I am not going to read your reply before you've even posted it, or claiming I will write you off as a CS fanboy.

The entire "watch your tone" thing has always been misdirection. It's like this whole thing about presentation except much worse: what you're actually saying never matters, only how you say it. You can say absolute lies, and people will listen because you said them in a way they "agree" with. God knows how long humans have been at that.

How something is communicated is just as important as what is being communicated. My point is, maybe don't wonder why the tone of this thread has turned hostile given the way you've posted over the last two pages.

[Despatche]

You really have no idea what's happened here, wow. You are so concerned about your high school debate club principles that every word you read is warped by them. Fine, do what you like, I obviously can't stop you.

[harborline765]

You really have no idea what's happened here, wow. You are so concerned about your high school debate club principles that every word you read is warped by them. Fine, do what you like, I obviously can't stop you.

I'm literally answering a question you posed and you dismiss it as 'high school debate club principles'. You expect folk to read what you have to say while not bothering to seriously engage with what they have to say. And you wonder why this thread has gone to sh*t.

[copy-paster]

Interesting insights regarding TFVI. I think Mania mode+scoreplay+using Rynex ship is the only way to fully experience VI, as normal mode are sleeper. It just needs better stage design and OST.

[Despatche]

Mania is pretty good in VI, yeah. I guess picking between anything else and Mania is kinda like picking between Novice and Arcade in a CAVE port, or something.

I am not opposed to how the soundtrack turned out, but I know a lot of people wouldn't get so angry about it if it was all like the boss themes. Ah well.

I'm literally answering a question you posed and you dismiss it as 'high school debate club principles'. You expect folk to read what you have to say while not bothering to seriously engage with what they have to say. And you wonder why this thread has gone to sh*t.

You are not answering shit or fuck. It's clear that you have this very specific narrative and you absolutely must see it through. I don't give a single shit about your narratives. Your self-censoring is hilarious, by the way.

[Lethe]

Sure. Not very relevant to what I was talking about though. I'm only interested in your horrible fallible opinions and not whatever you're trying to pass off as objectivity.

So you deny it but then admit it in the same sentence, I see.

It sounds like you have some grand argument to redeem Darius II or whatever. Well, let's hear it if you got it.

Dude, I have no idea what you're talking about. I'm aware that my initial post was a bit snide, but it's coming from a genuine place. Instead of all this griping you could be contributing positively in case someone does care, or for the people who already care. You need to be the change you want to see to some extent.

[Despatche]

And I am telling you that those meme voting threads are the worst place to do that in. You have to trick people into liking things, as awful as that is. See what I said about influencers earlier. That Mark MSX guy is doing a pretty bang up job of that as we speak.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

[harborline765]

Sure. Not very relevant to what I was talking about though. I'm only interested in your horrible fallible opinions and not whatever you're trying to pass off as objectivity.

So you deny it but then admit it in the same sentence, I see.

It sounds like you have some grand argument to redeem Darius II or whatever. Well, let's hear it if you got it.

Dude, I have no idea what you're talking about. I'm aware that my initial post was a bit snide, but it's coming from a genuine place. Instead of all this griping you could be contributing positively in case someone does care, or for the people who already care. You need to be the change you want to see to some extent.

Basically what I wanted to say but put together more eloquently in four sentences.

[Lethe]

And I am telling you that those meme voting threads are the worst place to do that in. You have to trick people into liking things, as awful as that is. See what I said about influencers earlier. That Mark MSX guy is doing a pretty bang up job of that as we speak.

No. The people who do care, those who are willing to be curious, are going to be curious. Nobody else matters; the influencees weren't ever in the running, those people aren't the target audience. Unless you actually post about this shit, play in events, livestream it or whatever your weapon of choice is, how is anything ever going to change?

[Despatche]

You are far too hopeful, and ignore day-by-day evidence of your scenario not being the case at all. Believe me, I'd love to fantasize about being able to reach out to that one person who cares, but it's becoming increasingly clear that this person either doesn't exist, or doesn't hang around a "dying communication medium", meme MAME tournies, or single-digit viewer streams.

[EmperorIng]

You have to trick people into liking things, as awful as that is.

The big problem in the community is that we actively trick people into liking dogshit games. E.G. Beestorm is a perennial favorite (that no one actually plays), and there was a long stretch where people 'ironically' memed the fucking garbage Bioship Paladin earlier this year on any shitty discord of your choice.

[PerishedFraud ឵឵]

See, the difference is that when I play TF3/TF5, I'm having fun playing the game

And when I'm playing Bioship or Beestorm, I'm having fun laughing at how bad the game is

You really can't compare TF to it. Not even TF4. The games might be unbalanced. They might be outdated. But they aren't bad.

Brainwashing a person is also far more difficult than you make it seem Despy. No matter what a person hears, typically they'll quit if they don't like a game.

[Lethe]

You are far too hopeful, and ignore day-by-day evidence of your scenario not being the case at all. Believe me, I'd love to fantasize about being able to reach out to that one person who cares, but it's becoming increasingly clear that this person either doesn't exist, or doesn't hang around a "dying communication medium", meme MAME tournies, or single-digit viewer streams.

The difference between our positions is that I'm approaching this entirely selfishly. I don't have any pretensions about saving the genre or whatever; as with most things, that's going to be left to the lowest common denominator. All I know is that I personally have been influenced by all kinds of stuff posted here, put up elsewhere, even weird crap nobody uses like personal sites and blogs, random videos or archived streams with 3 views I stumbled into out of curiosity. What else am I gonna do, read a fucking Steam review? Last time I found a game I'd never heard of and was even tempted to try out Sisters Royale of all things. So it worked on me, and even if only a tiny fraction of the active readers here alone pay the slightest attention, it's worth something.

Besides, the voting thing specifically is good for my ego. Do I really feel comfortable talking about a game like this? Not that it matters if I change my mind later. It's an opportunity to think about it. I don't know, maybe this is just autism at work.

[BIL]

there was a long stretch where people 'ironically' memed the fucking garbage Bioship Paladin earlier this year on any shitty discord of your choice.

What! Discord sounds rad! I thought it was just me that liked Jigokusei Winnebago: Nazo No Parallel Parking

And when I'm playing Bioship or Beestorm, I'm having fun laughing at how bad the game is

*splutter* *fume*
FRAUDY IMMA KILL YOU REAL SLOW* (◎w◎;)


*FOR WRONG OPINION RE VIDEOGAME ON INTERNET (■｀w´■)

[Despatche]

The difference between our positions is that I'm approaching this entirely selfishly. I don't have any pretensions about saving the genre or whatever; as with most things, that's going to be left to the lowest common denominator. All I know is that I personally have been influenced by all kinds of stuff posted here, put up elsewhere, even weird crap nobody uses like personal sites and blogs, random videos or archived streams with 3 views I stumbled into out of curiosity. What else am I gonna do, read a fucking Steam review? Last time I found a game I'd never heard of and was even tempted to try out Sisters Royale of all things. So it worked on me, and even if only a tiny fraction of the active readers here alone pay the slightest attention, it's worth something.

Besides, the voting thing specifically is good for my ego. Do I really feel comfortable talking about a game like this? Not that it matters if I change my mind later. It's an opportunity to think about it. I don't know, maybe this is just autism at work.

I'd like to say "at least you're honest", but there's something depressing about that whole post. Sisters Royale is an actual good game though. And yeah, fuck Steam, they're what happens when all the filters come off of forums like this, and the whole place is just filled with defected78s.

The big problem in the community is that we actively trick people into liking dogshit games. E.G. Beestorm is a perennial favorite (that no one actually plays), and there was a long stretch where people 'ironically' memed the fucking garbage Bioship Paladin earlier this year on any shitty discord of your choice.

I mean, I won't argue that, especially the "ironic" memeing part. Though Bee Storm is at least interesting enough that grazing made it into exA Label. Dumb games can have cool ideas. Gomorrah is sorta kinda like a distant ancestor to Tumiki Fighters. You see me damn Thunder Force but praise Gate of Thunder in the same breath while never mentioning Winds of Thunder, there's a good reason for all of that.

Not calling it a bad game, but how is Kotsujin even on the Honorable Mention list this year? Noone plays that game, who keeps voting for it? And why is CRS in the actual top 25, but not a single x.x game is even on the HM? BWR is the only game that's ever made it from what I remember, and it got kicked off this year. And then you have Gradius V, that's another game noone plays because they're all afraid of it, yet there it is, fairly high up in the top 25, like no big deal. There was some guy in the thread who said that Gaiden could only be lesser than V, that was super funny to me for some reason. I will also never not find it funny that Espgaluda is in the top 25, specifically in place of II which people keep telling me is this god game; is that because of Calice? Is Mahou being on the HM solely because of that rerelease? But where's GG Aleste 3, another game everyone was saying was a GOAT? "Oh, people got their orders late", but noone plays any of this shit anyway. There's also someone losing their mind over using MAME for games that are extremely unlikely to ever get rereleases, and actually saying that the games must be bad because of that, literally saying that a game is only good if it's popular. How is this poll not a giant meme of memes?

Brainwashing a person is also far more difficult than you make it seem Despy. No matter what a person hears, typically they'll quit if they don't like a game.

I'm telling you, I'm not telling anyone to never play Thunder Force or whatever. What I am saying is that far too many people base their entire conception of "what is good" and "what someone likes" on peer pressure or nostalgia or other not-game things, which is why "what is good" and "what someone likes" so often ends up identical. It's not even brainwashing, it's something so much worse.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

I thought it was just me that liked Jigokusei Winnebago: Nazo No Parallel Parking

That made me laugh just as much as when you posted video of it.

FRAUDY IMMA KILL YOU REAL SLOW* (◎w◎;)

I'LL HOLD 'IM DOWN

Seriously, where's the sudden Bee Storm hate coming from? This thread is officially irredeemable. :C

Sure it's a weird, meme-y game that reuses assets, it's a CAVE licensed game developed by someone else, gasp, has SUDDENLY ANIME characters, but its gameplay is perfectly inoffensive and decently fun. At the very worst you could maybe argue it's mediocre compared to CAVE developed DDP games, but it's certainly not bad.

I actually very nearly had a TLB clear back when I was playing it and rather enjoyed it for what it was, I should go back and try to clear the IR Mode again.

[Udderdude]

Beestorm pisses me off because they stole MOD music for it. viewtopic.php?p=780058#p780058

[Despatche]

Yeah, I feel like that's a bigger factor for a lot of people. One of the songs is a ripoff of the Final Fantasy IX battle theme too.

That Haze post makes me sad. He don't know nothing about what was going on. DOJ explicitly mentions DDP2, and Ikeda himself has said that DDP2 is the only reason DOJ ever happened, all for better or worse. I don't think Haze understands that basically no PGM games ever got ports outside of the CAVE stuff. It just wasn't nearly as important of a factor for most of IGS's markets. (He knows Donpachi doesn't have boss health bars, right...?)

[PerishedFraud ឵឵]

*splutter* *fume*
FRAUDY IMMA KILL YOU REAL SLOW* (◎w◎;)


*FOR WRONG OPINION RE VIDEOGAME ON INTERNET (■｀w´■)

You can't kill me! I have a point defense system that blocks everything and has no cooldown. It also deals more damage than my actual weapons for some reason.

Beestorm pisses me off because they stole MOD music for it. viewtopic.php?p=780058#p780058

Was about to post this. Even uploaded defloration lmao.
The intro is ripped off too. There's probably more in there that we just don't know.

I'm telling you, I'm not telling anyone to never play Thunder Force or whatever. What I am saying is that far too many people base their entire conception of "what is good" and "what someone likes" on peer pressure or nostalgia or other not-game things, which is why "what is good" and "what someone likes" so often ends up identical. It's not even brainwashing, it's something so much worse.

Ah yes, people lying for internet points. True Despair.

They must be eradicated. You get the street fighters, I'll prep the time accelerator.

Seriously, where's the sudden Bee Storm hate coming from? This thread is officially irredeemable. :C

I mostly meme on Bioship. Beestorm is ok. They were kinda brought together here ;p
Well, i meme on Beestorm too but not for the same reasons. Mostly the stolen music