Ketsui: Kizuna Jigoku Tachi Extra (XBox 360)

[Fudoh]

Ok, so the first copies to Europe are starting to arrive.

Just got mine and gave it a first try. Of course I wouldn't dare to comment on the gameplay side yet, but two quick notes on the technical side of 5pb's 2nd try.

Does anybody know what's the original resolution of the PGM hardware ?? While younger Cave games like Futari or ESP2 are running at 320x240 which makes it easy to map the emulation onto a 720p screen (480x640 with borders all around), Ketsui doesn't offer this option. It also seems to have non-square pixels. With the overscan setting set to 90 or 100% the scaling errors (wavy scrolling) are obvious on both the X- and the Y-Axis. With the overscan set to 83% the waving on the horizontal can be eliminated, while the vertical axis looks good (but not perfect) on this setting. Overall 83% seems to be the best setting though if one doesn't mind the smaller playing area. (Applies to Yoko 720p, Nearest Neighbour only).

Further more, the conversion feels a bit laggy. It's been years since I played the PCB, so I can't really compare the two versions, but compared to other Cave titles on the 360, I'd say the game has a lag of at least 2 frames. Somebody who knows the PCB version very well can probably comment on this way better than me. Would be interesting to know eventually...

[THE]

@Fudo

PGM games do run indeed on a higher resolution -> 448x224
That's why those PGM games do look better and less pixelated than their successors on SH3. The lack of bad transparencies FX helps too.

Regarding the lag:

Well you are probably playing some form of emulation of Ketsui here, those most likely will add some small lag.

[2dvertical]

I was worried with the hype but what a great game. I usually dont really dig the industrial themed cave games but this one just sucks you in. I swear a couple of the bullet patterns put me in a trance which caused my death. I for one feel the lockon beep cannot be ignored, it should have a disable option. Playing on a lcd at 100 overscan the bilinear smoothing seems the best for me, its obvious looking at the red writting in the background while adjusting the smoothing. But then again i'll smooth the shit out of a game if i can..

[evil_ash_xero]

You know, i'm just happy I got a Cave game that didn't have a girly cover. Its not a very good cover, but still. The DS version had a better cover(I don't care what you say, I liked it).
I also like the soundtrack a good bit. Stage 2 really sticks in my head, and I find myself humming it in the morning when I wake up.

This reminds me of a mish mesh of DOJ and Progear. Which makes sense, being the two games that came out before it.

Hey, why in the hell is the guy on the right side in the wallpaper? It cuts the front of his face off.

Also, has ANYONE translated that review from Famitsu? I never did get confirmation that they gave it a low score because of lack of extras. If that isn't the reason, I don't know what to say. This is high quality stuff.

[ChurchOfSolipsism]

Did you get permission to remix Manabu Namiki's work?

Aren't you the dude that posts videos of himself driving around Tokyo?

[drunkninja24]

You know, i'm just happy I got a Cave game that didn't have a girly cover.

Ha, agreed with that one big time. It's nice to be able to show the game to my friends without having to go "No, really, this game is awesome, just give it a chance!" since most of them scoffed at Futari and ESPII solely from the cover.

[General Martok]

Further more, the conversion feels a bit laggy. It's been years since I played the PCB, so I can't really compare the two versions, but compared to other Cave titles on the 360, I'd say the game has a lag of at least 2 frames.

God , I hate when this happens. I aleady felt the lag in Espgaluda 2 was a bit much compared to futari , so it's worse in this game?

[Special World]

You'll find out you're wrong about that once your Ketsui shows up.

You have no idea how earthshatteringly amazing it would be for me if this were true.

I like Futari so much my friends have taken to joking "It's good but it's no Futari" about everything else under the sun.

I'm hopeful for Ketsui though; I'm pretty certain it'll at least be better than BLEX and Deathsmiles.

Also I fucking love bullet cancelling so X mode seems right up my alley.

I can't comment on the BLEX port as I haven't played it, but DDP DOJ is a better game than Futari. That said, it's better than nearly everything. I'd agree with the Futari > Deathsmiles rating tho.
The only thing with Ketsui is it's difficulty. It lulls you into a false sense of security for the first couple of stages, but cranks up the difficulty quickly. It's a beautiful game, totally in your face and utterly relentless.

I can see why somebody would like DOJ more but I think Futari is better in pretty much every way.

IMO Futari has:
- better scoring system
- better graphics (DOJ is some sort of hideous)
- better black label
- just feels more solid and fun
- a WAY better port, BLEX sucks ass
- cooler stylistically (So fucking colorful with all those gems and shit, and I love killing dem bugs)
- better bullet patterns

I've only played it a couple of times but I think I'd even rather play Dodonpachi over DOJ because it seems more fun and less hideous to me. That said, they're all fantastic games compared to anything outside of what Cave has released. There's only a handful of games that come close to Cave quality imo.

I can't wait for Guwange to come to XBLA; I think that's gonna be my second favorite under Futari unless Ketsui has something to say about it.

[Sasupoika]

- a WAY better port, BLEX sucks ass

PS2 White Label.

[dmauro]

(DOJ is some sort of hideous)

Fail quote of the week.

[moozooh]

DOJ's hyper is one of the best, most powerfully-feeling lasers in the history of videogame lasers. Its ability to compensate for the lack of penile length is nothing short of (ho ho!) amazing.

[gs68]

Of all the Cave games I've played, DOJ is my least favorite. ddp2 bee shit doesn't count

[Trevor spencer]

I really like DOJ but just cant get on with the strict chaining , its to much for me

[Special World]

- a WAY better port, BLEX sucks ass

PS2 White Label.

Have a burned copy, I like it more than BLEX. There's a mode I can;t use since it's burned though, or something.

(DOJ is some sort of hideous)

Fail quote of the week.

Dude Dodonpachi looks better than DOJ. And if the sequel looks worse than its predecessor than IT has failed hardcore.

I really like DOJ but just cant get on with the strict chaining , its to much for me

Yeah the chaining is retarded imo.

Much prefer Futari Black Label chaining. Hell, I greatly prefer Futari original mode too.

[-Bridget-]

Futari got so many posts because it was the first region-free Cave port.

Also because it's like the best game ever.

You'll find out you're wrong about that once your Ketsui shows up.

You have no idea how earthshatteringly amazing it would be for me if this were true.

I like Futari so much my friends have taken to joking "It's good but it's no Futari" about everything else under the sun.

I'm hopeful for Ketsui though; I'm pretty certain it'll at least be better than BLEX and Deathsmiles.

Also I fucking love bullet cancelling so X mode seems right up my alley.

I tend to feel the same way about this myself, being that I generally consider Futari to be the best game ever. That game is what convinced me to buy a Jap 360 for all these ports (though of course it later turned out to be region free ANYWAY).

I got Ketsui right away, and to me, no, it doesnt topple Futari from it's #1 spot, but I do think it very easily took #2. I'd kept wondering if it was gonna live up to it's hype, and I think it really did.

There's not that many modes in this port.... not like Futari or Galuda2... but that's fine, since what IS here is totally awesome.

I also agree with Special World in that I actually ended up liking X-mode even more than Arcade mode. It seems a bit more chaotic, since it encourages me to either create as many suicide bullets at once as I can, or allow a whole bunch of enemies on screen at once so they can shoot more crap at me (which I'd never do in Arcade). Also, just the feel of the scoring is different; what it feels like to me is Ketsui's usual "chip management", in that I gotta constantly watch that multiplier and find the best spots to use it, plus Futari's fixation on screen-clearing enemies (which is something I always liked about Futari). And maybe with a little bit of Galuda thrown in. Also, unlike the other arrange modes, it doesnt totally warp the difficulty as a result of the changes made. No shields or autobomb this time!

Arcade mode I havent played QUITE as much yet (but still alot). I find I dont actually die to enemy fire much in that mode; instead, it's pretty much the same as what happens if I practice Futari BL's Original mode, in that I'm going to stupidly ram things over and over when trying to point-blank them.

Overall, the game isnt quite as difficult as I'd been led to believe... and it helps that I'd already fought all the bosses a few zillion times on the DS one... but it's still pretty mean. Yet it feels so much more fair than DOJ (which I've often heard it compared to).

Such a great game though.

[gs68]

I think DOJ and Mushi 1 turned me off from Cave shooters for a while. =/

And then I played Futari and was a Cave fan again.

[emphatic]

If DOJ-BLEX would have the X Mode unlocked from scratch, there would be a lot less hate for the port. Claiming that a port is bad just because you've only played a couple of credits isn't exactly a proof of character, is it? It almost sounds like one of those really sad review people who credit-feed games only to slap a big FAIL on it. Oh, wait...

[Kiken]

Further more, the conversion feels a bit laggy. It's been years since I played the PCB, so I can't really compare the two versions, but compared to other Cave titles on the 360, I'd say the game has a lag of at least 2 frames. Somebody who knows the PCB version very well can probably comment on this way better than me. Would be interesting to know eventually...

It's your monitor. The game has zero lag when played on a CRT.

Regarding the lag:

Well you are probably playing some form of emulation of Ketsui here, those most likely will add some small lag.

It's a full-on port, not an emulation.

[Fudoh]

It's your monitor. The game has zero lag when played on a CRT.

thanks! my display is lag-free. As said, I didn't compare to the actual PCB, it's just that the ship in Ketsui feels like more inertia compared to other titles.

[Skykid]

I tend to feel the same way about this myself, being that I generally consider Futari to be the best game ever. That game is what convinced me to buy a Jap 360 for all these ports (though of course it later turned out to be region free ANYWAY).

I got Ketsui right away, and to me, no, it doesnt topple Futari from it's #1 spot, but I do think it very easily took #2. I'd kept wondering if it was gonna live up to it's hype, and I think it really did.

There's not that many modes in this port.... not like Futari or Galuda2... but that's fine, since what IS here is totally awesome.

I also agree with Special World in that I actually ended up liking X-mode even more than Arcade mode. It seems a bit more chaotic, since it encourages me to either create as many suicide bullets at once as I can, or allow a whole bunch of enemies on screen at once so they can shoot more crap at me (which I'd never do in Arcade). Also, just the feel of the scoring is different; what it feels like to me is Ketsui's usual "chip management", in that I gotta constantly watch that multiplier and find the best spots to use it, plus Futari's fixation on screen-clearing enemies (which is something I always liked about Futari). And maybe with a little bit of Galuda thrown in. Also, unlike the other arrange modes, it doesnt totally warp the difficulty as a result of the changes made. No shields or autobomb this time!

Arcade mode I havent played QUITE as much yet (but still alot). I find I dont actually die to enemy fire much in that mode; instead, it's pretty much the same as what happens if I practice Futari BL's Original mode, in that I'm going to stupidly ram things over and over when trying to point-blank them.

Overall, the game isnt quite as difficult as I'd been led to believe... and it helps that I'd already fought all the bosses a few zillion times on the DS one... but it's still pretty mean. Yet it feels so much more fair than DOJ (which I've often heard it compared to).

Such a great game though.

Hmm, methinks you guys need to spend more time with the Cave back catalogue. Although we're in agreement regarding Futari's greatness, I don't know how much it trounces the rest of the offerings (if at all).
I'd put several earlier shmups, including Progear and Ketsui, above it in my list.

Personal tastes differ of course, it just sounds like Futari is the first Cave shmup that really grabbed you, hence you have a soft spot for it.

[Special World]

I think DOJ and Mushi 1 turned me off from Cave shooters for a while. =/

And then I played Futari and was a Cave fan again.

I only have a vague understanding of Mushi 1 scoring and it sounds absolutely retarded.

ED: But I still enjoy the game!

[undamned]

I really like DOJ but just cant get on with the strict chaining , its to much for me

Yeah the chaining is retarded imo.

Cave fan fail.
-ud

[Special World]

I really like DOJ but just cant get on with the strict chaining , its to much for me

Yeah the chaining is retarded imo.

Cave fan fail.
-ud

Oh please.

"Be here now."

I'd much rather have a fluid system that allows for interpretation like ESPgaluda 2 or fucking Mars Matrix

[ncp]

Oh please.

"Be here now."

I'd much rather have a fluid system that allows for interpretation like ESPgaluda 2 or fucking Mars Matrix

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... 57#p535257
DDP DOJ is for men.

[Special World]

Oh please.

"Be here now."

I'd much rather have a fluid system that allows for interpretation like ESPgaluda 2 or fucking Mars Matrix

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... 57#p535257
DDP DOJ is for men.

Men who like a hideous, restrictive shooter.

It's not really for me. I thought it was until I played every other Cave game.

Well, I like it more than Ibara at least.

[ncp]

There is a single best route in every game. DOJ just punishes you more for not taking it.

[adversity1]

Oh please.

"Be here now."

I'd much rather have a fluid system that allows for interpretation like ESPgaluda 2 or fucking Mars Matrix

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... 57#p535257
DDP DOJ is for men.

Men who like a hideous, restrictive shooter.

It's not really for me. I thought it was until I played every other Cave game.

Well, I like it more than Ibara at least.

Definitely sympathize with this opinion.

However there is just something awesome about seeing your score climb as the chain goes up in DOJ and DFK that keeps me coming back like a quivering dope fiend.

[Chacranajxy]

Whelp... bit the bullet and ordered Ketsui along with a Japanese 360. I really don't believe this game's going to come to the US, so I'm testing my hypothesis by dropping hella cash. Gambling is fun!

[Special World]

There is a single best route in every game. DOJ just punishes you more for not taking it.

IMO it doesn't allow for the satisfying mental experience of working towards that single best route as much as a more fluid game would.

"Be here now. You must be here now and doing this now."

As opposed to "The world is your oyster. There are hundreds of bullets. Where is your pearl?"

DOJ is siding with the clearly defined path. Discovering the obscure path is all the more remarkable imo. Not the stupid Bubble Bobble Bullshit obscure path, but the obscure path solidly rooted in the game's mechanics.

I don't hate the game. I don't even profess to know a ton about the game. I just don't think it's all it's cracked up to be. Besides "hard game." It is quite the hard game.

But even besides all that, I just don't think it FEELS as fun as Futari. Don't ask me to define that. But Futari is just motherfucking fun. Visceral and uncontrolled. It's off the chain.

[PsikyoPshumpPshooterP]

Ketsui is HELLA tight..and the scoring system is HELLA easy to understand..