Any RPG fans here?

[Obiwanshinobi]

My favorite console dungeon crawler is still Nocturne, but it is very unconventional.

What's so unconventional about it? It's a pretty standard jRPG with towns, dungeons, a world map and turn-based combat. This demon capturing mechanics have been around for so long that they are well established a convention at this point (MegaTen did that nine years before Pokémon). The most unique feature of Nocturne is the Press Turn system.
Breath of Fire: Dragon Quarter (BoFV) - now THAT is unconventional.

[BulletMagnet]

My favorite console dungeon crawler is still Nocturne, but it is very unconventional.

What's so unconventional about it? It's a pretty standard jRPG with towns, dungeons, a world map and turn-based combat.

I think he's talking "unconventional" in "dungeon-crawler" terms - personally I never really even considered it a "crawler", though I can see why others would. Part of the reason I enjoyed it so much is because of the "personality" it had - yeah, your party was pretty much the same interchangeable/customizable deal as in a more traditional crawler, but the world and characters retained a unique ambience which made you want to try and find everything, not just to form the optimal party, but because you genuinely want to see it all. Considering that most "story-focused" JRPGs don't have that sort of effect on me, I give props to Nocturne for being a pretty tough cookie and still remaining compelling in ways beyond the "I want to grind a lot and beat the near-impossible optional boss" appeal.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Aye, it's a subtle difference, but to me Digital Devil Saga felt more like a dungeon crawler (even though you mostly do the dungeoning in both). When I got to play Nocturne, I wondered why some people branded it a "dungeon crawler" indeed, whereas it ticks every box a "normal" jRPG should, except it's way better than most of them.

[linko9]

Well, my first dungeon crawler was SMT:Strange Journey earlier this year (that's a dungeon crawler, right?), and I loved it. So I'd recommend that as an introduction, I guess. It's so refreshing to see an RPG without palette swaps.

[CMoon]

My favorite console dungeon crawler is still Nocturne, but it is very unconventional.

What's so unconventional about it? It's a pretty standard jRPG with towns, dungeons, a world map and turn-based combat.

I think he's talking "unconventional" in "dungeon-crawler" terms.

This.

[CMoon]

A couple EO reviews

Gamertell review

Rpgamer review

[CMoon]

When I got to play Nocturne, I wondered why some people branded it a "dungeon crawler" indeed, whereas it ticks every box a "normal" jRPG should, except it's way better than most of them.

Because you mostly explore 'dungeons' with random monster encounters. It also has menu driven combat, and it isn't particularly story driven. I think the issue isn't what Nocturne has, but what it doesn't have. The first computer rpgs were dungeon crawlers and/or games like Ultima, and modern rpgs are descendents of that. At it's core, a lot of the SMT games are traditional cRPGs, especially the early SMT games which were very close to wizardry clones. They may seem like jRPGs today, but that's ignoring the history of these games, and possibly because terms like JRPG are really poorly defined.

[professor ganson]

It is ultimately all about numbers and probability and imagination--which is pretty much the opposite of what console rpgs have become. They are pretty arcaic and I can understand why most people don't like them.

Very intriguing. That's part of what I love about Fire Emblem (on very hard settings). All about numbers, probability, and creativity. But the hardcore dungeon crawlers which don't allow for regular saving and require map drawing-- that's just a bit too large an investment time-wise.

[CMoon]

EO2 and I assume EO3 let you save whenever you want. Of course, when you die, you are sent back, but you keep your maps. It isn't really that bad. Again, I have absolutely no idea whether the EO series is the best place to start, but it certainly is pretty decent, isn't enormously convoluted (SMT I'm looking at you!) and you don't have to use DOSBOX to play it. Plus, portable dungeon crawlers rock really hard. They're such a great time killer.

Edit: Seriously if your curious, I'd just check this game (or perhaps Strange Journey) out. It isn't like they are terribly expensive, and they are among the last great games we'll see on the DS. It's also going to a great company. Of course if you hate it, you can probably get half your money back. I mean, being out $15? so what? I think you'll find your reservations aren't completely justified--gamers always make these games out to be way harder than they are. As long as you play cautiously, and don't just charge ahead without understanding the game engine, you'll be fine.

[Obiwanshinobi]

When I got to play Nocturne, I wondered why some people branded it a "dungeon crawler" indeed, whereas it ticks every box a "normal" jRPG should, except it's way better than most of them.

Because you mostly explore 'dungeons' with random monster encounters. It also has menu driven combat, and it isn't particularly story driven. I think the issue isn't what Nocturne has, but what it doesn't have. The first computer rpgs were dungeon crawlers and/or games like Ultima, and modern rpgs are descendents of that. At it's core, a lot of the SMT games are traditional cRPGs, especially the early SMT games which were very close to wizardry clones. They may seem like jRPGs today, but that's ignoring the history of these games, and possibly because terms like JRPG are really poorly defined.

Even if you consider Final Fantasy series the very definition of jRPG, there's no denyig that Nocturne has a lot in common with it. How linear and indeed story-driven it is, how it hides its linearity under the relatively vast overworld (whereas in DDS all the optional stuff is in dungeons), and last but not least, how Asian the story is. To me the main difference between Nocturne and what has became of Final Fantasy is not the genre, but the work ethos of people who developed those games. Square can have ingredients for a decent jRPG and do precious little with them (many times I wondered why they even bothered designing those combat systems with all bells and whistles without giving me any incentive to explore them fully), pumping terrific effort into cutscenes instead, whereas in Nocturne the actual gameplay is crafted just the way it should be.
This work ethos went through the window in Persona 3, though, where - like in too many jRPGs - the "gameplay" is an excuse for the story rather than other way round.
I believe with Nocture they wanted to prove that regular console jRPGs don't have to suck and that there's still room for gameplay in this genre.

[KindGrind]

It is ultimately all about numbers and probability and imagination--which is pretty much the opposite of what console rpgs have become. They are pretty arcaic and I can understand why most people don't like them.

Very intriguing. That's part of what I love about Fire Emblem (on very hard settings). All about numbers, probability, and creativity. But the hardcore dungeon crawlers which don't allow for regular saving and require map drawing-- that's just a bit too large an investment time-wise.

You're absolutely right. I've reached a point where random save points are a big downer for me. Dying after an hour of dungeon crawling, looking for the next save point is as frustrating as it gets. It's enough for me to stop playing the game altogether. It's not conscious though, it's not, "screw that, I won't play that game anymore", but it's more like when I have time to put in a game in the future, I won't go for that particular one.

That being said, I enjoyed SMT DDS and DDS2 in the past. Nocturne was pretty interesting and quite fun, but I feel it's completely different than something like Final Fantasy or Chrono Trigger, which I had the chance to play this weekend on my DS after my impromptu surgery. I hadn't played the game in years, and although it's very easy, it's truly an amazing game, very well-crafted and fun to play.

I realize that since real life has pretty taken over, I mostly play puzzle games and/or shooting games that can be played -and beaten- within an hour. That or speedrunning Metroid games from the beginning, which never gets old. I don't have many 50 hours stretches to put in games anymore, and when I do it takes me weeks to complete. Last one was probably Demon's Souls, and was well worth it.

PS. And oh, CMoon, love the TP reference.

[CMoon]

Nocturne was pretty interesting and quite fun, but I feel it's completely different than something like Final Fantasy or Chrono Trigger

Man, I should hope so. I do have to get around do DDS. Maybe after EO3 and Vanquish if nothing else shows up on the horizon. I'd love to stick in DDS now but EO3 is out in a day--no way I'm tacking both at the same time. I'm already guilty of neglecting DQ9 which just got kinda ho-hum after a little while.

PS. And oh, CMoon, love the TP reference.

Thanks man.



Obi> From your posts I'm guessing you haven't played or didn't grow up with some of the older (IE 80's) computer rpgs. Not saying you need to go back man, but if nocturne feels like 'just another typical jrpg', I feel like your not distinguishing the genres enough to make terms like 'jrpg' useful. Sort of like the folks who always get upset that run-n-guns don't belong in the main forum. Not a criticism man, just a helpful nudge that I think your missing something. On the other hand, does it really matter?

[Obiwanshinobi]

I didn't play any cRPGs in the eighties/early nineties, but the Japanese used to make them even back then. Computer games, that is. I get the idea: dungeons, monsters, maps, loot etc. (rather than storytelling, dialogues, characters, cutscenes, graphics etc.). I just think Nocturne (even though high quality dungeon crawling is its selling point and if you don't like dungeon crawling, you're not gonna enjoy Nocturne big time) fulfils the jRPG requirements, therefore writing it off as a dungeon crawler (I'm not saying anybody on here did it) is plain weird when it's got stuff people complained FFX didn't have (most notably the free roaming making for the illusion of non-linearity).
Some internet people happened to describe Nocturne in a way giving me impression of a game devoid of towns, NPCs and the likes. I mean, what the...? It's all there. The overall layout really isn't that different from your average jRPG. That's what I'm saying.
With Digital Devil Saga the story is different as its world really boils down to the dungeons (or "dungeons"). Personally I don't have a problem wit that, but I can see how somebody might want a different kind of adventuring from their jRPGs.

[chempop]

I wish the SMT games were released in English when I was still playig RPGs regularly, they seem much cooler than the typical fantasy setting.

I'm 50hours deep in FF9 now and loosing steam because my work schedule has picked up. Game has tons of personality and charm, definitely one of the more enjoyable RPGs I've played.

Now that I think of it, I do have a copy of Persona kicking around that I never touched, I should at least see how the game plays one of these days.

[CMoon]

I didn't play any cRPGs in the eighties/early nineties, but the Japanese used to make them even back then.

Yes, as obvious clones of western rpgs. FF1 is just a clone of ultima/etc. SMT is a clone of Wizardry (albeit w/ the pokomon mechanics they invented). Dragon Quest is a hybrid of the two.

I don't think it's really a point for debate. If you don't see/get the distinction, it hardly matters. For myself, I found Nocturne paid just enough homage to the older, traditional rpgs, while also doing a bunch of non-conventional shit (no armor, no weapons, no princess to save, no happy ending, no angst-ridden MC, no gut-wrenching sappy plot) that I found the whole thing refreshing. I can't imagine grouping it along side of final fucking fantasy (at least, nothing after 3), but like I said, if you don't see the distinction, it really doesn't matter.

I think I'm more amazed that there's a whole crop of gamers out there that don't even know what dungeon crawlers are, but love all the new effeminate sappy jrpgs that virtually play themselves.

[Obiwanshinobi]

I wouldn't say happy endings are typical of Japanese games commonly labelled as RPGs. For example, Suikoden - very traditional series with kings, knights, princesses, manga/anime character designs and goofy monsters - can be particulary brutal in this department, without too much teenage angst and melodrama to boot.
Also, I find this no equipment thing in Nocturne a cosmetical difference. In all Shin MegaTens I played Personas, Mantras etc. make for equipment and weapons really. Don't remember how they were called in Nocturne, but those parasitic arthropods were the shit.

[sjewkestheloon]

Got Phantasy Star Portable 2 today as I love loot whore RPGs and it'll be nice to take my PSP online for some co-op with randoms.

Certainly doesn't seem to be the most sophisticated of games but I imagine it'll become quite compulsive. Also looks like a perfect antidote to MHFU when I am getting ripped to pieces by one of the many many nasty wyverns.

[professor ganson]

Got Phantasy Star Portable 2 today as I love loot whore RPGs and it'll be nice to take my PSP online for some co-op with randoms.

Certainly doesn't seem to be the most sophisticated of games but I imagine it'll become quite compulsive. Also looks like a perfect antidote to MHFU when I am getting ripped to pieces by one of the many many nasty wyverns.

I just started this game yesterday, and so far I think it's a really nice follow-up to PSP1. Alfa System definitely had a bigger budget for this one after the original sold tons in Japan. I'm hoping that some of my complaints about the previous installment will no longer be an issue. I especially hated combat with flying enemies-- locking on to your target was just awkward. And I thought a lot of the art work was really ugly in the original. So far it's looking a lot more attractive aesthetically-- not just graphically/technically.

[CMoon]

Picked up EO3 last night. Seems like good fun so far. The introduction is nice and gentle and as I suspected, it does have save states like EO2.

[CptRansom]

Anyone play Dragon Age on 360? Is it any good? I watched a friend play the PC version and it looked pretty neat (and fucking HUGE [that's what she said]) but I'd like some opinions on the 360 version (since my laptop is shit and won't run it). I'm getting pretty sick of dungeon crawling action-RPGs, JRPGs/SRPGs don't interest me at all (so no Agarest or FF13 for me, please), and I've played enough of Oblivion/Fallout 3 (leveling in Oblivion really got on my nerves). I'm open to other recommendations as well. I just want a fuckhuge RPG to get sucked into when I feel like having some relatively mindless entertainment.

[sjewkestheloon]

I loved Dragon Age Origins on the 360. It's long and involved, the combat is challenging, the dialogue is very entertaining, need I go on?

It's very Bioware in style, so no free roaming on a huge map, but you can select which order to do each of the main missions which mixes things up.

Don't bother with most of the DLC though. £5 for 40 minutes of gameplay doesn't sound like a good deal to me.

As for PSP2 I never played the first one due to the lack of online support so it's totally new to me. Liking it so far and looking forward to getting a few drops and switching out my weapons.

[CptRansom]

I loved Dragon Age Origins on the 360. It's long and involved, the combat is challenging, the dialogue is very entertaining, need I go on?

It's very Bioware in style, so no free roaming on a huge map, but you can select which order to do each of the main missions which mixes things up.

Sounds good; how's the interface/control with controller vs. keyboard/mouse?

[sjewkestheloon]

I loved Dragon Age Origins on the 360. It's long and involved, the combat is challenging, the dialogue is very entertaining, need I go on?

It's very Bioware in style, so no free roaming on a huge map, but you can select which order to do each of the main missions which mixes things up.

Sounds good; how's the interface/control with controller vs. keyboard/mouse?

Can be a little awkward at first. The PC version allows you to zoom in and out BG style but the 360 version only allows a sort of third person perspective. You hold a shoulder button to bring up a skill wheel, from which you select your next move. When you release the button your character will then do the requested action. While paused you can switch between your characters and queue up the next skill for each of them or even take direct control of one of them for the whole fight.

The AI works well and you can control it by setting a bunch of parameters (such as health below 40% = cast heal) so you can leave them to it or micromanage to your heart's content.

[BryanM]

There are some crazy things I'm hearing about this "Final Fantasy" 14 thing. Like, how exp per day is capped, and how your equipment loses durability points just by being logged in.

For all their properties to make an MMO out of, they somehow managed to pick the one that isn't Nanashi no Game? ... this make sense to anyone else?

[CMoon]

I know a lot of you dudes were hesitant or even negative about it, but I've put around 30 hours into Etrian Odyssey 3 now and can say hands down it is awesome; very much stands out as one of the best examples of this genre. Guys scared off by this genre need to grow a pair; it's hard, but the kind of hard that makes video games good.

[evil_ash_xero]

Does Valkyria Chronicles count? It's a SRPG...but I finally picked it up for the PS3, and it's just amazing.

[professor ganson]

I know a lot of you dudes were hesitant or even negative about it, but I've put around 30 hours into Etrian Odyssey 3 now and can say hands down it is awesome; very much stands out as one of the best examples of this genre. Guys scared off by this genre need to grow a pair; it's hard, but the kind of hard that makes video games good.

OK, I'll definitely get it, though it may take me a while to get around to playing because of backlog.

And yes, Valkyria Chronicles is super nice.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Lies. 3/5 at best. For some reason Cleavage Girl didn't even get her own scenerio. Very weak.

Er, I finished FFX and Lulu gets as much backstory as other characters. Not told by many cutscenes, but it's there.
I'm playing Tactics Ogre: Let Us Cling Together (the PSX port). The engine is pretty great, virtually bullshitless, but the game is also strangely dry and rigid. Now, just after I played a map full of water, it wants me to to play another map full of water (slows things down), and this kind of turns me off. I can do this without breaking a sweat (having my party slightly overtrained), but it's just... meh. The next map really needs to be less rich in water and mud, otherwise I can't see myself finishing the game anytime soon. Moreover, as cool as having an octopus in my party is, I can't seemingly put it to any good use (even on that map full of water). I'm by no means forced to have it in the attack team, but since I recruited it, I just want it to be useful.

[CMoon]

Why the hell are we talking about FF? Is that even an RPG anymore?

Back to EO3> Part of what I'm digging about it is that while it is of course linear (there's only one dungeon), the sense that there's a lot more to do at any given time gives the feel that you can casually work your way up to being able to take on that huge stratum boss (and they are huge!) I think I spend as much time harvesting, FOE hunting and messing around with sea and dungeon quests as I actually spend on the main quest. The end result being that while there is no doubt some kind of grinding, the grinding happens while I'm doing something else, and I'm never grinding just for the point of grinding.

That said, I absolutely love the classes. I still don't have dual classing, but I've rested my current characters multiple times (and shifted them around) to try all sorts of permutations. There's just a lot to mess around with here, and it all feels terribly well balanced.

If there's a problem here, it's the lack of documentation. EO3 definitely needs a good strategy guide, but of course it's too niche to get one. Fortunately, gamefaqs and a good skills simulator makes up for that.

Anyway, just wanted to push this game harder. It's one of the best games I've played in a long time, and I'd rather talk about this or anything else that's actually an RPG than the shit that FF has turned into.

PS - Yeah, I have Valkyria Chronicles and need to get back into it at some point. It is a really nice title, and it's cheap.

[Obiwanshinobi]

It's one of the best games I've played in a long time, and I'd rather talk about this or anything else that's actually an RPG than the shit that FF has turned into.

What's actually an RPG? The Japanese don't make those, don't you know. Whoa, I can play either the role of a shotgun dude or a sniper - this has to be an RPG.