Dodonpachi Daifukkatsu BLACK LABEL[Cave 2009/10?]

[Sasupoika]

I think that it is not going to be after Hibachi, rather it is going to replace Hibachi in same way as DDP-bosses replace normal mid-bosses.
Not to mention fighting Hibachi and then Zatzusa would be pretty unfair even by CAVE-standards.

[moozooh]

That makes sense, but it's still going to require all the life stock player has accumulated by that point. Since there is one less extend compared to White DFK due to lack of the second loop, and players are already struggling to get to normal Hibachi, it's surely going to be an extra tough challenge.

[Skykid]

This thread fell off the radar even before the port got released.

As it's been out for a while and there was no real feedback thread, just wondering how people found this? Personally it's one of my favourite Cave titles, but the high score table isn't exactly on fire, so I'm wondering if folks struggled with it or it didn't meet their expectation (a bit like 1.5 for me?)

Interested in your thoughts.

[Erppo]

I already wrote my opinion in the meh thread, but might as well post here too.

Basically I think it's a good game but I sort of dislike how it does not feel like a Dodonpachi at all. I'm also not that fond of the main scoring activity being sitting still in one place (mainly a problem with Power style, others feel more fun) and the fact that the hypers were made so much better.

Otherwise, I find it really enjoyable and I like the basic idea of making the BL a completely different game from the original. I feel like I should definitely spend some time to properly learn it in the future, since I have barely played the game since the first couple of days after I bought it. Currently I just have the problem that I can't play any other DFK mode without thinking I should use the time to practice 1.5 instead.

[Skykid]

I already wrote my opinion in the meh thread, but might as well post here too.

Basically I think it's a good game but I sort of dislike how it does not feel like a Dodonpachi at all. I'm also not that fond of the main scoring activity being sitting still in one place (mainly a problem with Power style, others feel more fun) and the fact that the hypers were made so much better.

Otherwise, I find it really enjoyable and I like the basic idea of making the BL a completely different game from the original. I feel like I should definitely spend some time to properly learn it in the future, since I have barely played the game since the first couple of days after I bought it. Currently I just have the problem that I can't play any other DFK mode without thinking I should use the time to practice 1.5 instead.

Hm, interesting. I'll admit Power style is all I play, but doesn't the corner camping feel a lot less prominent than 1.5? I find you have to rack up a decent counter first anyway, which means pushing between 500-1000 on the counter before even thinking about it, and even then Hypers are relatively short lived, so you really need to be specific with where you're going to camp for decent bullet spreads.

I actually agree that it doesn't feel much like a traditional Pachi game, there's just too much in the way of secondary elements to balance, and not really having to chain bees is a major difference.

But it's just so intense I can't get enough of it. I think I respond to shmups that force you to play on the edge of your seat better, so maybe it's a personal thing, but the system coupled with the soundtrack and that wild rank just takes it to new highs.

[Erppo]

Hm, interesting. I'll admit Power style is all I play, but doesn't the corner camping feel a lot less prominent than 1.5?

No? In 1.5 you ideally use only one or two hypers in a stage (ignoring the midbosses but these usually have something else going on to keep you interested) to quickly rack up the counter since everything else is just holding back your score. Besides the thing you want to do while hypering is usually humping the lasers instead of sitting. Even when you're just cancelling, you have to mind the danger lasers that are not an issue in BL. Then there's the second loop, where hypering at a high rank is often just asking to get brutally murdered.

Instead if you look at an high level BL replay (especially B-P), all the player does is looking for as much places to do the sitting as possible. Sure there's some of the counter raising that you want to do unhypered, but the main thing is that the point of BL is maximizing the hyper time, while in 1.5 it's minimizing it.

But it's just so intense I can't get enough of it. I think I respond to shmups that force you to play on the edge of your seat better...

Same here, which is why I prefer the chaining games, where you just have to stay fully concentrated all the time and there is simply no dead time ever because your score is continuously at a risk.

[Aliquantic]

Note too that you are literally invulnerable while hypering in the corner with B-P at least, possibly B-B as well but I can't remember for sure since I haven't played this game in forever... nothing in 1.5 really compares to that, especially not when you factor in that 1.5 hypers cannot be cancelled early as Erppo pointed out. Watch any B-P high-level (one chou and over) replay to see what is meant by "camping" and I think you'll understand, there's a lot of those on the leaderboards and a couple on Youtube, including at least one by a Westerner!

Something else is that there's a definite scoring ceiling effect in that game, and it's a little bit hard to be motivated to play if you simply cannot improve your score much on earlier stages where your survival is flawless. It takes a fair amount of time (and superplays) to figure out how to really milk bullets in this game and get scores beyond a straight 1cc, and the leaderboards being segregated made that a little bit tricky at times (I don't know about now, but then the DLC leaderboards were pretty dire for the most part, especially with Bomb, but the retail one should be good enough).

It's not a bad game per se (though I really wish rank wasn't a black and white choice of "max this out or don't score at all", and closer to classic Yagawa rank), but I think most people have just decided to spend their limited time elsewhere rather than learn this game

[Skykid]

Ah, interesting. I suppose I've been into BL for so long I've forgotten the nuances of 1.5. Then again I remember making a concerted effort to forget them after I realised how frustrating the requirements were. Maybe that's why the relative simplicity of Arrange A and BL were so instantly appealing.

Same here, which is why I prefer the chaining games, where you just have to stay fully concentrated all the time and there is simply no dead time ever because your score is continuously at a risk.

See, I can't argue with being concentrated at all times and constantly focussed on score, but chaining will always be a bit of a sticking issue. I can just about deal with DOJ's chaining (the total bastard that it is) but less so with Dodonpachi and 1.5's requirements. 1.5 in particular is just so ball kickingly annoying when you slip up (signified by a dratted autobomb half the time) I got quickly unenthused.

Back to Black: Aliquantic I hear you regarding the limited scope of BL. I can feel a 1cc coming my way if I stick at it, but I'm not a super scorer like you. I can't rinse shmups out to the absolute limit (if they have one) so I just take BL as it is. I really don't find it dull for an instant, even with the camping mechanic. I like finding new ways to experiment in building chains and unloading hypers amidst its storm of bullets, and pinging those bees when they turn white is so satisfying I'd say it gives the game an entirely new depth.

1.5 felt kind of monotonous to learn, to attempt to chain, and to accept as being stupidly easy in everything except scoring. And it just feels slow in everything except forcing you to stick to its chaining routes. BL put the raw edge back into it: no more 25 minute noob runs, no more unorthodox hyper usage, and no more autobomb (yay!)

Thanks for sharing your thoughts anyway, it's interesting to hear what some of the better players make of it.

[adversity1]

Hm, interesting. I'll admit Power style is all I play, but doesn't the corner camping feel a lot less prominent than 1.5?

lol

Staying out of this one.

[Skykid]

^Hahaha, that gif is legendary!

[Erppo]

See, I can't argue with being concentrated at all times and constantly focussed on score, but chaining will always be a bit of a sticking issue. I can just about deal with DOJ's chaining (the total bastard that it is) but less so with Dodonpachi and 1.5's requirements. 1.5 in particular is just so ball kickingly annoying when you slip up (signified by a dratted autobomb half the time) I got quickly unenthused.

I thought getting kicked in the balls was an important part of the DDP experience.

But to bring up one more thing, I can only see DFK being more lenient in the scoring department than its prequels. The concept of getting no score at all until you get the chains right has always been there in DDPs (well DDP lets you get a respectable score with the max bonus alone but that would require NMNB'ing deep into the second loop). Getting long chains in DFK is easier than ever before, as thanks to the new way the hypers work, you can just sacrifice some score and hyper through the parts you can't chain. Some of this was already present in DOJ, but in DFK your chain is near unbreakable when hypering.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts anyway, it's interesting to hear what some of the better players make of it.

Yeah, thanks for answering too. I've always been curious myself how BL seems often more popular one in discussions but the situation in scoreboards is always the opposite.

[Skykid]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts anyway, it's interesting to hear what some of the better players make of it.

Yeah, thanks for answering too. I've always been curious myself how BL seems often more popular one in discussions but the situation in scoreboards is always the opposite.

Well, I'll return to 1.5 in time. I'll be interested to see how the game talks to me after spending a lot longer with BL.

As you mentioned, hyper bridging in DOJ is pretty key for the less professional player, so I suppose I could put the same thing to good use if I spend some dedicated time learning 1.5.

In answer to your question of BL's popularity, I can only imagine its immediacy and relative simplicity are key (and that soundtrack.)
Regardless of 1.5's depth, its autobombing and hypering here but not there requirements are an unorthodox mix. It's got chaining, but it feels a little removed for a DDP title (to me anyway.)

At the same time, BL doesn't feel much like a DDP either, so there is some equal ground there. But its an experience I'm happy with as a standalone or offshoot from the series, and I'm quite enjoying getting into the thick of it.

[Aliquantic]

Make sure to play as Power in 1.5 too, or possibly Bomb! And DFK has no tricky chaining sections like DOJ and especially DDP had, so it's pretty friendly in that regard... DOJ you pretty much have to sacrifice 1-3 and 1-4 or spend a fair amount of time to learn those few tight spots, which can make the first loop quite dull until 1-5 (which isn't anywhere as amazing as DFK 1.5).

Come on and hurry up in bringing this game to Europe RSG, I need my fix!

[Sumez]

Considering the only real criticism people have for BL is that "it doesn't feel like DDP", it could easily end up as a favorite of mine. Awesome 2D spaceships, laz0rz all over the wazoo and an insane breakcore'ish soundtrack, there doesn't really seem to be anything not to love... I'll tune back in once the EU release is out.