Duality ZF (Xbox LIVE Indie Games) coming soon...

[TodayIsForgotten]

Whatever you do decide, I will still love you and will buy your product. I think you may get some reactions based on the game name and game mode available. I can see where it may go with a few posts from today. When i see Duality and from what you've shown and/or discussed I automatically think dual ship control.

You should highly consider having it in the trial. Then when the person buys it maybe have it unlockable. Or maybe have it unlock after an hour of play. I mean i dont need dual play mode right away as I'll tackle and beat single player first. Then when the trial ends have a message say buy the game and unlock dual play mode or something.

[yyr]

In our testing we have found the idea of "dual play" to be far more interesting in concept than in reality, to most testers, when the time frame is short as in a trial (because they are not use to it, yet).

If you do offer Dual Play in the trial, you could always preface it with a "have you tried single play yet? you should try that first to get acquainted with the game!" and offer the player the choice of either trying that instead or jumping in head-first. Then if they opt for single play, when the trial is over they can restart it and try Dual. If they try Dual and don't "get it," they might say "OK, maybe I'll take the advice" and start over with Single Play.

Also remember...your game has more than 1 level, does it not? If the gameplay is good (and it looks like it is), my opinion is that you don't need to hold back the main gameplay features. They'll try the first level, will want more and will buy the game for that reason. That's how these things work, right? =)

[Xonatron]

I appreciate all your input. As I said, you have got me thinking.

I am thinking we will not lock dual play from the trial, but leave it unlockable as it is in the full version. This will mean most players will not be able to unlock it in time, but it will not be a "blunt" or "in your face" type rejection. It will simply be sitting there in our game, as it should be, as the Ferrari Enzo sits in PGR2, and they know they get it when they unlock it.

If someone wishes to continually load the game (after the forced 8 minute time outs by MS) and unlock it, they can. Anyone willing to do that will be buying the game, I think!

What do you think of this?

[yyr]

I don't know how long it takes to unlock Dual Play, but if you only get a minute or two to try it, that's probably not enough to really get into it.

I still prefer my last idea (leaving it unlocked but displaying a warning).

If someone truly, honestly wants to try the game solely for the Dual Play feature--even if they suck and you think they shouldn't jump in so quickly--they will be turned off if they can't. That's just the casual customer mentality. "I want to enjoy the game the way I want." "I want to button-mash." "I want to credit-feed." "I want to play hundreds of ranked matches even though I only use the same three moves over and over again."

These players make up a significant portion of your potential audience...and that portion may be even larger for Duality: ZF because it's a game in a niche category. If you don't cater to these players, they likely won't buy the game, regardless of its price. However, if you are consciously choosing not to cater to these players, and are choosing only to cater to your intended core audience, then this should not concern you.

[Xonatron]

yyr, I don't like text warnings because gamers don't read! They should be taught whatever it is you need to teach them via the game mechanics itself. Ultimately, they will be taught by those mechanics regardless of warnings trying to teach them something else. "Do as I say not as I do" is a known flawed method. We natively learn by example.

And I know of gamer stubborness! But, if a gamer knows our game has dual play, wants to play it, gets our game demo, sees that it's not immediately available, but also sees it's in there waiting, I'm not sure if this is a bad thing, or a good game-selling hook. Every hook loses some buys, but how many buys does it gain?

Does the price matter on this? How mad can a gamer get if dual play is out of reach unless they pay $1? What about $5? Or $10 if we get onto XBLA? I think price does matter on these hooks. The lower the price the less mad you can get, and the more impulsive the buys will be.

FYI: We are catering to a global audience, while at the same time implementing game mechanics (controls, enemies, etc.) that appeal to the hard core shmup fans, so it's a mix.

[Xonatron]

Slighty off topic, but our company, Xona Games, was featured in Develop magazine:
http://xona.com/2009/11/09.html

[Kaspal]

are you guys applying for a XBLA release?... if so, how long does it take for you to get approval or something?... i would REALLY love it if you make it there, since that way i wont have to be online just to play (i hate that!)...

[TrevHead (TVR)]

I just watched the vid and it seems to be a really good game i really likethe 4 player aspect although i think its a big shame it has no
online play as many ppl will have trouble getting 3 mates who like shmups to play with you. (this topic might of been brought up b4 as ive only read the 1st couple of pages of this thread)

I dont own a 360 (although im seriously tempted to buy one since mushihime is to be region free) but if i did I would buy the game (at some point) but without the online support im unsure what would keep me intrested in the game for long. (unless the dual ship mechanic totally rocked)

[Jason]

are you guys applying for a XBLA release?... if so, how long does it take for you to get approval or something?

We are going to try and have no idea how long this takes, it's all new to us.

[Jason]

I just watched the vid and it seems to be a really good game i really likethe 4 player aspect although i think its a big shame it has no online play as many ppl will have trouble getting 3 mates who like shmups to play with you.

There are no crazy fast paced shmups with online play because lag ruins the gameplay. If we get an XBLA contract, I'll work to circumvent this issue with some ideas, and if they work, we'll have the first fast paced shmup with online play. The lack of lag will mean no complaints about lag deaths... imagine.

I would buy the game (at some point) but without the online support im unsure what would keep me intrested in the game for long. (unless the dual ship mechanic totally rocked)

It does totally rock, and there are two more dual-fighter modes to keep your attention after Dual Play. What will keep you hooked, beyond the fun gameplay, is the numerous styles of play and modes you can unlock. Further, and possibly the most addicting, will be the online scoreboards that immediately tell you your ranking vs. your friends, as well as against the world. The stats are shown during play, and more detailed at end-of-game. We've concentrated on rewarding you for your work. We'll have the best online scoreboards of any Xbox 360 game. Only Geometry Wars has touched upon this, with everyone else asleep at the wheel, and we're pushing further than even GW2 has done, partially because of the power of P2P networking that true Leaderboards cannot achieve. Can't wait for you guys to test this. This is my current roadblack. My current implementation isn't scaling well (I am planning for 100,000+ players) so I'm redoing it from scratch. This is a project in and of itself.

[Jason]

You should highly consider having it in the trial. Then when the person buys it maybe have it unlockable.

I appreciate all of the great feedback. I think we're going to allow the game to progress in Trial as it does in the Full game, so you will be able to unlock Dual Play in the trial. However, it will be locked by default. This allows the gamer to get used to the game mechanics in Solo Play first, and then tackling Dual Play afterward. Further, it shows off the reward/progress system that makes you feel good about your efforts, as you will be able to unlock stuff even before you've bought the game. Further, it doesn't slap you in the face with a "Buy game to play Dual Play", it just shows an unlock progress % for it, letting you know nicely that you can unlock it.

The only main difference in Trial vs. Full game will be the lack of multiplayer (it's a good hook to grab some buys -- we have to consider people won't buy the game if there's no additional benefit to buying it), and that Multidirectional will be unlocked in the Trial already (but not in the Full game) just to attract the multidirectional crowd (you'd be surprised at the people who love Geometry Wars but aren't shoot 'em up fans). Oh, and online scoreboards are disabled (by technical restriction; nothing we can do about it) in the Trial, which is another reason to buy.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

I just watched the vid and it seems to be a really good game i really likethe 4 player aspect although i think its a big shame it has no online play as many ppl will have trouble getting 3 mates who like shmups to play with you.

There are no crazy fast paced shmups with online play because lag ruins the gameplay. If we get an XBLA contract, I'll work to circumvent this issue with some ideas, and if they work, we'll have the first fast paced shmup with online play. The lack of lag will mean no complaints about lag deaths... imagine.

Good luck with implimenting online play. Since if you could have 4 players without too much lag then you would draw in a whole new class of gamers, those who are into party games and the more casual gamers. But even if 4 players is unworkable, you could just make it a 2 or 3 players online instead (plus even include the option to have 2-3 local gamers with 1 or 2 online players). It is a shame that todays technology cant handle fast bullet hellish shooters without running into lag problems. Im not a programmer but i guess its because most gaming systems are geared towards 3d graphics :-/

I would buy the game (at some point) but without the online support im unsure what would keep me intrested in the game for long. (unless the dual ship mechanic totally rocked)

It does totally rock, and there are two more dual-fighter modes to keep your attention after Dual Play. What will keep you hooked, beyond the fun gameplay, is the numerous styles of play and modes you can unlock. Further, and possibly the most addicting, will be the online scoreboards that immediately tell you your ranking vs. your friends, as well as against the world. The stats are shown during play, and more detailed at end-of-game. We've concentrated on rewarding you for your work. We'll have the best online scoreboards of any Xbox 360 game. Only Geometry Wars has touched upon this, with everyone else asleep at the wheel, and we're pushing further than even GW2 has done, partially because of the power of P2P networking that true Leaderboards cannot achieve. Can't wait for you guys to test this. This is my current roadblack. My current implementation isn't scaling well (I am planning for 100,000+ players) so I'm redoing it from scratch. This is a project in and of itself.

depending on the control scheme i can imagine leet gamers playing 2 players at once both using the duality system. ( i bet that would look great on you tube)

[Jason]

TrevHead, it's not the number of players, or even objects on the screen, that makes fast-paced shmups impossible without lag, it's the deaths that occur when you know you didn't get hit due to lag, but the game thinks you did. We're making a 1-hit=death game, therefore every death has to actually be a proper death. We've optimized enemy bullet speed, player fighter speed, enemy bullet hit box, and player hit box down to individual pixels and even less than 1 pixels/frame accuracy to get things just right. That 1/60th of a frame can sometimes make the difference between life and death. In fact, all games that go as fast as possible (60 frames per second) still have a 1/60th delay between your input and the result on-screen. This is too fast for humans to notice, but can still cause that "Hey! I am sure I avoided that bullet!" which causes them to blame the controller or the game, when sometimes it really is this unavoidable delay. That's how important 1/60th of a second is. Now, add lag... the game is ruined.

If you have a slower shmup like R-Type, Ikaruga, Aegis Wing, etc., the lag can be ok mostly, although it still causes lag deaths on my high-speed connection. Duality ZF has so many bullets, and they move so quickly, and you move so quickly, we need absolute zero lag. The speed of light is finite, so no lag is impossible. Technology isn't the limit -- the speed of light is. But... I have ideas... that's all I can say for now.

Regarding "leet gamers playing 2 players at once both using the duality system": We've beta tested Dual Play with 4-player co-op and things get crazy. We need to get these videos up on YouTube for you guys to see. We've been hesitant since it's pure chaos and it could scare people away.

[spadgy]

Slighty off topic, but our company, Xona Games, was featured in Develop magazine:
http://xona.com/2009/11/09.html

That old rag eh!

[Xonatron]

Slighty off topic, but our company, Xona Games, was featured in Develop magazine:
http://xona.com/2009/11/09.html

That old rag eh!

LOL! I finally got a hard copy of it at MIGS 09! Everyone who attended got one! So cool to be in a magazine at all, let alone Develop!!

[Kaspal]

its sad (for me) to announce that i wont be able to play your game at all now... my console (a elite model) has been banned in the recent wave... theres no way you can complain or whatever, so... sicne i have no more access to the internet with the console (and i dont think that i'll just get another one... thats JUST out of the question), my support to your game is no more.

sorry guys... but if you ever release it for PC, gimme a call.

PS: im still mad at you guys, for delaying the release so much that i didnt have the chance to even try it.

[Jason]

Current status: We're trying to get on Xbox Live Arcade, which requires finalization of the scoreboards before we give them our pitch. Wish us luck. After acceptance or rejection, Duality ZF will be released on either Xbox Live Indie Games (which will be fast) or Xbox Live Arcade (which requires implementation of leaderboards and achievements, and strict QA). After Xbox 360 release, we're shooting for a PC release via Steam which is highly likely (which requires customizable controls for all possible input types).

I'm sorry we've taken so long to develop the game. This is all new to us. Duality ZF has become much more than the simple indie title we first desired, which is a good thing if we get onto Arcade, and maybe a bad thing if we stay on Indie Games since that service has lower expectations (a game that's too involved can actually do worse). The development has been long and we see the light at the end of the tunnel. I appreciate all the feedback, and the desire displayed here just to play our game makes it all worth our while. I can't wait for your names to be in the scoreboards.

[yyr]

Current status: We're trying to get on Xbox Live Arcade, which requires finalization of the scoreboards before we give them our pitch.

Other than finalizing their design, what would you need to finalize?

If you guys get approved for XBLA, there would be no peer-to-peer scoreboards anyway. You'd be able to use proper Leaderboards.

[Observer]

Current status: We're trying to get on Xbox Live Arcade, which requires finalization of the scoreboards before we give them our pitch. Wish us luck. After acceptance or rejection, Duality ZF will be released on either Xbox Live Indie Games (which will be fast) or Xbox Live Arcade (which requires implementation of leaderboards and achievements, and strict QA). After Xbox 360 release, we're shooting for a PC release via Steam which is highly likely (which requires customizable controls for all possible input types).

Oh my, that would be awesome. Count me in as soon as you release it for PC. I don't mind the wait. Patient person here.

I know I mentioned this before but despite the Steam release, did you guys still consider a small print run with the typical goodies you know everyone here (myself included) would get? Like including the OST, which would be great 'cause the little I heard of the music was really nice...

[TrevHead (TVR)]

Current status: We're trying to get on Xbox Live Arcade, which requires finalization of the scoreboards before we give them our pitch. Wish us luck. After acceptance or rejection, Duality ZF will be released on either Xbox Live Indie Games (which will be fast) or Xbox Live Arcade (which requires implementation of leaderboards and achievements, and strict QA). After Xbox 360 release, we're shooting for a PC release via Steam which is highly likely (which requires customizable controls for all possible input types).

Its great news that its gonna come to the PC, With the pc version do u plan on having online play? (if it can be implimented) and a online leaderboard (i really hope thats included since its something i dont come across often with pc shooters)

[Jason]

Other than finalizing their design, what would you need to finalize?
If you guys get approved for XBLA, there would be no peer-to-peer scoreboards anyway. You'd be able to use proper Leaderboards.

I need to finalize the design and the code! The system is so complicated because of all the game modes, and how some modes' scores can integrate into other modes, and because of the expected 100,000+ gamers in each scoreboard, the file size is huge, and the amount to share is huge, that I'm running into memory restrictions, bandwidth limitations, and file load/save times. It's a mess really, so I'm redesigning it from scratch and coding it again. A seamless integration of scoreboards is crucial to Duality ZF's delivery.

Even if we get onto XBLA, I can still use the P2P scoreboards for things leaderboards cannot do -- such as show a run-time world ranking.

[Jason]

I know I mentioned this before but despite the Steam release, did you guys still consider a small print run with the typical goodies you know everyone here (myself included) would get? Like including the OST, which would be great 'cause the little I heard of the music was really nice...

I don't follow exactly, can you please explain your idea in detail?

For the original, uncompressed soundtrack, we will talk to Imphenzia about this, as he's planning on releasing a Duality ZF album with the songs. Perhaps we can figure out a way to include it with the game for those who want it, but avoid the huge MB's of download for those who do not.

[Jason]

With the pc version do u plan on having online play? (if it can be implimented) and a online leaderboard (i really hope thats included since its something i dont come across often with pc shooters)

Online play is not on the schedule unless we get into Xbox Live Arcade. If we do, the PC release will also have it.

Online scoreboards will be available in all versions, even if it's just my own P2P online scoreboards (which in some ways are better than the true leaderboards). If we make it onto Xbox Live Arcade, we'll use the true leaderboards as well. Steam also has true leaderboards and achievements, so we'll make use of them for the PC release.

[Kaspal]

I know I mentioned this before but despite the Steam release, did you guys still consider a small print run with the typical goodies you know everyone here (myself included) would get? Like including the OST, which would be great 'cause the little I heard of the music was really nice...

I don't follow exactly, can you please explain your idea in detail?

For the original, uncompressed soundtrack, we will talk to Imphenzia about this, as he's planning on releasing a Duality ZF album with the songs. Perhaps we can figure out a way to include it with the game for those who want it, but avoid the huge MB's of download for those who do not.

i think he was asking for a release ala Doujin style... i mean, you print like 1000+ copies of the game (with the OST included, if you want), put them up for sale here or somewhere else, with the price you want (no, 50 dollar its NOT the way to go here... games like Touhou go for 10 bux at comikets), and im sure quite a lot of ppl here will support you (me included, since XBox360 is now out of the equation for me).

[Observer]

Ah, yep, pretty much like Kaspal said. Audiosurf did this after the initial Steam release. Something similar to what RHE did with DUX and Last Hope or the guys of Söldner X with their LE (which comes with an OST but later on the composer released a newer version with the PS3 tunes). Both examples can be found at Play-Asia.

Maybe Imphenzia could do the following: first releasing the OST with the game, then come out with a second album featuring arranges, remixes, extended versions and what not. Most japs tend to do that a lot (I recall Psyvariar 2's punchi punchi OST even came with a roughly 9 mins piano solo), sometimes the music is valued just as much as the game. Else we wouldn't have Zuntata and Co.

Guess there are plenty of options, choices and... stuff. Whatever the outcome, looking forward for the final release!

Should we expect one last teaser video or more footage sooner or later?

[Xonatron]

These are good ideas. Thanks for mentioning them.

The deal we have with Imphenzia may break the idea of including the OST in the sale, as we are entitled to the income from the game and Imphenzia is entitled to the income from the OST, and selling the game and OST together, of course, fuses the two. I will have to consider creating a new deal for the PC release. I can let this idea rest for now, while we concentrate on the Xbox 360 release and let Imphenzia do the OST release. After we hook up with Steam perhaps Imphenzia and Xona Games can enter a new contract to deliver what the true fans want.

Good news: The Imphenzia soundtracks currently in Duality ZF are already cut-down versions of much larger songs. So the OST will basically sound like a remix (as an extended mix) already. Plus, we already planned to have a few remix versions of the songs (which are already recorded) on the OST. So we are already there with you on that idea!

This stuff is amazing. We are really doing "big game" stuff here, and in my humble state I am blown away that Duality ZF deserves any of this attention!

A new trailer is coming soon. I am working on our video capture/editing software setup to create a kick-ass 30 second (perhaps a longer 60 second, too) ultra-intense trailer to pitch to XBLA and to companies with XBLA contracts, in our efforts to land that contract. It's unreal how much "non-game" work goes into making a game. Instead, I should say, it's unreal how much "non-game" work goes into releasing a successful game; If all we had to do was make games, our lives would be easy!

[No_not_like_Quake]

The 4-player aspect should get some XBLA publishers attention, since multiplayer plays a big part in people's interest in playing these days.

[Square King]

Further, and possibly the most addicting, will be the online scoreboards that immediately tell you your ranking vs. your friends, as well as against the world. The stats are shown during play, and more detailed at end-of-game. We've concentrated on rewarding you for your work. We'll have the best online scoreboards of any Xbox 360 game. Only Geometry Wars has touched upon this, with everyone else asleep at the wheel, and we're pushing further than even GW2 has done, partially because of the power of P2P networking that true Leaderboards cannot achieve.

I believe Biology Battle, an indie Xbox arena shooter, does real-time ranking as well. Not that important, but thought I'd mention it. I'd love to see it implemented in more games and I'm glad you're working it in.

[Jason]

Further, and possibly the most addicting, will be the online scoreboards that immediately tell you your ranking vs. your friends, as well as against the world. The stats are shown during play, and more detailed at end-of-game. We've concentrated on rewarding you for your work. We'll have the best online scoreboards of any Xbox 360 game. Only Geometry Wars has touched upon this, with everyone else asleep at the wheel, and we're pushing further than even GW2 has done, partially because of the power of P2P networking that true Leaderboards cannot achieve.

I believe Biology Battle, an indie Xbox arena shooter, does real-time ranking as well. Not that important, but thought I'd mention it. I'd love to see it implemented in more games and I'm glad you're working it in.

Yes, Biology Battle has run-time world rankings. However, the end of game stats screen doesn't show your ranking in the world, nor your ranking vs. your friends, so the display of information is lacking, or poor. To date, Geometry Wars 2 does it the best. Our game will do everything it does, plus the run-time world ranking that Biology Battle does, plus world rankings in end of game stats screen, and persistent recent play lists, and much more... we're pushing to do as much as possible with our P2P scoreboards system, since we have access to information that even real leaderboards don't have. For example, how about a screen that shows your world rankings for all game modes, sorted in order of best to worst? There's a lot that can be done... the issue is presentation such that it doesn't overwhelm.

[Square King]

Despite the wait and the hype, it's really refreshing to see developers who are obviously dedicated to their project. Duality will be a day-one purchase for me.