Shooting Game Tournament 2008 Theme Weeks and possible Rules

The Coop · Post by **The Coop** » Thu Jul 31, 2008 10:07 pm

Icarus wrote:
The Coop wrote:Oops. My bad. I got Risk Storage's and Curious Chandelier's stage letters mixed up.
And Great Thing. SiK took the Z' (Z-Dash) route.

Well shit. Wrong again. And I had a 50% chance too.

Eeeeehhhh... it's been one of those weeks

Zebra Airforce · Post by **Zebra Airforce** » Thu Jul 31, 2008 10:49 pm

also think the medals are more player friendly since they offer an additional visual cue - they spin and blink.

Definitely. The blinking helps a ton and makes it more bearable. Technical bonuses are just awesome in general.

lgb · Post by **lgb** » Fri Aug 01, 2008 1:44 pm

mikwuyma wrote:The problem with choosing two games for Caravan week is how you would calculate the scores afterwards?

Add them up into your score for the week?

Ravid · Post by **Ravid** » Fri Aug 01, 2008 2:40 pm

No, that would place too much significance on whichever game had more digits in the score.
You could take the geometric average.

lgb · Post by **lgb** » Fri Aug 01, 2008 2:50 pm

I meant the tournament score.

Enhasa · Post by **Enhasa** » Fri Aug 01, 2008 4:51 pm

New avatar, LGB <3 SFKhoa.

mikwuyma asked me to explain DMC's scoring proposal since I explained it to him and he thinks most people don't get DMC's explanation. All he is suggesting is that the same scores are used for both individual and team.

Ex: an 8-man tourney with team A in the first 4 spots and team B in the bottom 4. Original proposal would be 6 + 5 + 4 vs 3 + 2 + 1. DMC suggests 8 + 7 + 6 vs 4 + 3 + 2, which are the same individual values anyway. Even simpler.

This is more fair and also gives the non top 3 finishers something to accomplish for their team. Don't worry, you cannot be penalized as a team for no-shows or terrible 7th members. The only way you are hurt is if someone's say, 4th place finishes above any of your top 3.

Rob wrote:I'd drop Mahou for Dimahoo or re-including Batrider

god no, god yes

dex · Post by **dex** » Fri Aug 01, 2008 5:08 pm

Two games in the caravan week with geometric average of scores would work the best (Should make both games almost equally worth playing).

zakk · Post by **zakk** » Fri Aug 01, 2008 5:09 pm

The entire concept of 'developer/publisher' weeks was fine at the start, but I think at this point it's becoming a stretch to not repeat developer themes AND have decent shortlists.

Just start using week themes that allow you to mix up developers and pick shortlists such that the entire tournament doesn't become cave/psykio/raizing every week. This way you can even give better exposure to developers that had only one or two worthy games without stuffing them into something dull like 'hidden gem week' or 'hori week'

Stuff like the previously mentioned 'dragon week', for example.
You can get as weird as you want with themes too; you could have 'shiny medals week' or 'flying person' week, or 'helicopter week' etc etc.

moozooh · Post by **moozooh** » Fri Aug 01, 2008 5:27 pm

zakk wrote:'helicopter week'

I hear the sounds of multiple orgasm coming from the helicopter lovers.

mikwuyma · Post by **mikwuyma** » Fri Aug 01, 2008 5:28 pm

Caravan week: Adding up the two scores then dividing by half would work. The question is whether everyone wants to play two games for Caravan week.

Thanks Enhasa for the voting explaination, but about Batrider, I'd like to have a three-year cutoff before repeating games just to promote some variety. And yes, I do think that we can find enough decent games in a three-year span

(and no, this isn't because I'm one of the few people who doesn't like Batrider).

Zakk: I have to agree with you, going by developer and repeating theme weeks such as hidden gem is starting to get thin.

I think we can sneak in one more developer week, I think Capcom would still work.

I'm now thinking of replacing Taito week with a "Company's best"/"Games that don't suck" week or something of that sort. A tentative shortlist would be Rayforce, Strikers 1999, Raiden Fighters Jet (and Thunder Dragon II if we want to have a fourth choice). This would still include Taito as a possible candidate without the chance of something like Sylvalion being picked

Then famous manic week could be turned into "Cave and Raizing, because this is all you really want" week. Progear, Esp.rade or Dangun Feveron, Garegga, (and Mahou if we want a fourth choice). The problem with this week is that a Cave game would almost definitely be picked. Though I guess a week when GaijinPunch doesn't bitch would be worth it

I know it seems like I'm being kind of fickle, but it's pretty obvious that Taito week isn't the best idea :-/

The Coop · Post by **The Coop** » Fri Aug 01, 2008 5:53 pm

What about Hori Week? There are plenty of horizontal shmups that wouldn't otherwise come up in the various themes that have been made thus far.

Post by **Shatterhand** » Fri Aug 01, 2008 6:18 pm

zakk wrote:The entire concept of 'developer/publisher' weeks was fine at the start, but I think at this point it's becoming a stretch to not repeat developer themes AND have decent shortlists.

Just start using week themes that allow you to mix up developers and pick shortlists such that the entire tournament doesn't become cave/psykio/raizing every week. This way you can even give better exposure to developers that had only one or two worthy games without stuffing them into something dull like 'hidden gem week' or 'hori week'

Stuff like the previously mentioned 'dragon week', for example.
You can get as weird as you want with themes too; you could have 'shiny medals week' or 'flying person' week, or 'helicopter week' etc etc.

I like this idea. I suggested that last year and got a cold response.
I would go

Dragon week
3 buttons week
8 bits week
Cute'em up week
Helicopter Week

maxi · Post by **maxi** » Fri Aug 01, 2008 6:34 pm

Shatterhand wrote:
zakk wrote:The entire concept of 'developer/publisher' weeks was fine at the start, but I think at this point it's becoming a stretch to not repeat developer themes AND have decent shortlists.

Just start using week themes that allow you to mix up developers and pick shortlists such that the entire tournament doesn't become cave/psykio/raizing every week. This way you can even give better exposure to developers that had only one or two worthy games without stuffing them into something dull like 'hidden gem week' or 'hori week'

Stuff like the previously mentioned 'dragon week', for example.
You can get as weird as you want with themes too; you could have 'shiny medals week' or 'flying person' week, or 'helicopter week' etc etc.
I like this idea. I suggested that last year and got a cold response.
I would go

Dragon week
3 buttons week
8 bits week
Cute'em up week
Helicopter Week

And I agree.

orange · Post by **orange** » Fri Aug 01, 2008 6:41 pm

Shatterhand wrote:Dragon week
3 buttons week
8 bits week
Cute'em up week
Helicopter Week

this

zakk · Post by **zakk** » Fri Aug 01, 2008 7:07 pm

I propose one called 'control panel abuse week':

Mushi Maniac
XII Stag
Trizeal (XII Stag ship only)
Psyvariar(2)

mikwuyma · Post by **mikwuyma** » Fri Aug 01, 2008 7:34 pm

Theme Week: I'm definitely not opposed to the idea of a theme week, since I did propose Dragon Week, but I'm not going to throw out every single week for theme weeks. I'm open to one, because I need something that will replace Taito week.

Dragon Week: This could work, we have plenty of choices to choose from, and some of them would work really well IMO (Cyvern, thunder dragon II)

Hori Week: Wasn't this an option during STGT '06 (and by extension, Darius Gaiden was one of the games)? Are there five hori shmups that could work well for a single week of scoring? If anyone says Gradius III, I don't think they should be making any decisions

8-bit week: Not really up for it, doubt most people are up for it.

3 buttons week: No, this is at least 100 shmups or so. I don't really see the point of such a week. We could have six button week! Daioh, and um, Daioh.

Cute 'em up week: Are there even five cute 'em ups that would work well for a scoring week? I highly doubt it. And if anyone says Twinkle Star Sprites, they obviously haven't tried playing it for score (though it is an awesome game versus).

Helicopters: No idea. All I know is Twin Cobra 2 and the 'pachi series (the latter being a really bad idea because of strict chaining).

orange · Post by **orange** » Fri Aug 01, 2008 7:40 pm

mikwuyma wrote:8-bit week: Not really up for it, doubt most people are up for it.

i'd be psyched as fuck for this

Zebra Airforce · Post by **Zebra Airforce** » Fri Aug 01, 2008 7:49 pm

mikwuyma wrote:I need something that will replace Taito week

dammit

Helicopters: No idea. All I know is Twin Cobra 2 and the 'pachi series (the latter being a really bad idea because of strict chaining).

DESERT WAR DESERT WAR DESERT WAR DESERT WAR DESERT WAR

and... Tiger Heli

Kyoukuouyo Tiger 1 or 2 might work well.

bsidwell · Post by **bsidwell** » Fri Aug 01, 2008 7:50 pm

mikwuyma wrote:Caravan week: Adding up the two scores then dividing by half would work. The question is whether everyone wants to play two games for Caravan week.

I don't even want to play one game for Caravan Week. Two is right out.

orange · Post by **orange** » Fri Aug 01, 2008 8:04 pm

two games for caravan week sounds like an interesting twist!

The Coop · Post by **The Coop** » Fri Aug 01, 2008 8:51 pm

mikwuyma wrote:Hori Week: Wasn't this an option during STGT '06 (and by extension, Darius Gaiden was one of the games)? Are there five hori shmups that could work well for a single week of scoring? If anyone says Gradius III, I don't think they should be making any decisions

Is there really such a thing as a shmup that everyone's going to feel makes a good tournament game? People thought DG and Blazing Star weren't that good of choices for the contest, yet we still played them. Others griped about various vertical shmups that we all played. Plus, it's not like chaining and medals and all that are required to make a score. There is survival, a second tougher loop, taking risks of letting objects that launch enemies fire out as many as possible... stuff like that.

Surely finding 3-5 horis from the last 28 years that don't have a horrendous milking issue (or at least, no worse than Blazing Star) is doable. I mean, we played Twin Bee Yahoo! for a week, so how much worse could it get?

Post by **Shatterhand** » Fri Aug 01, 2008 8:57 pm

mikwuyma wrote: Helicopters: No idea. All I know is Twin Cobra 2 and the 'pachi series (the latter being a really bad idea because of strict chaining).

Choplifter.

Now seriously, Gyrodine, Silkworm, Chopper I, Airwolf, Super Cobra, Tiger Heli.. I am pretty sure there are more, but I can't remember now. Now that's all of them are good, and I only said arcade games. If we consider home games then there are a few more.

EDIT: Also, change 3 button week to Anime week. Then we can play Macross or Mazinger-Z.

We should REALLY play Mazinger-Z. I would die of laughs when people would vote for it because it's "traditional" and "fun", and then feel like shooting their heads when they figure out the scoring system. (Whick is kinda advanced and gimmick for such a pre-pachi game)

MX7 · Post by **MX7** » Fri Aug 01, 2008 9:02 pm

mikwuyma wrote: Helicopters: No idea. All I know is Twin Cobra 2 and the 'pachi series (the latter being a really bad idea because of strict chaining).

When did you actually explain why chaining is bad? I personally don't like chaining. Are you dismissing it because you personally don't like chaining?

mikwuyma · Post by **mikwuyma** » Fri Aug 01, 2008 9:11 pm

MX7: I have no problems with chaining (Uwabami Breaker's scoring system is based around chaining), but it seems like a lot of people bitch about chaining when it comes to a week-long score competition :-/ Then again, knowing STGT, there will be bitching no matter what games is picked.

Oh, right, explaining why. DDP-style chaining is bad for the most part because it makes scoring incredibly unforgiving. If you stop killing/hitting stuff for more than half a second, then your score is pretty much screwed. Psikyo chaining isn't too bad IMO, because enemies also tend to be a pretty big source of points in Psikyo games.

The Coop: I'm open to suggestions for Hori week. I'm just not sure I want to do it again when there are other weeks we can do that haven't been done already. Also, I liked Twin Bee Yahhoo *runs*

moozooh · Post by **moozooh** » Fri Aug 01, 2008 9:28 pm

MX7 wrote:When did you actually explain why chaining is bad? I personally don't like chaining. Are you dismissing it because you personally don't like chaining?

Chaining requires very precise memorization of routes and enemy patterns, and as a whole, it's very unforgiving due to the exponential nature of the chains (especially if they're long as in DDP). It's not bad per se, it's bad for a week's play because it's one of the hardest scoring system types to pick up.

EDIT: "Unforgivable", haha. Need moar sleep.

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Fri Aug 01, 2008 9:52 pm

I love helicopter games as much anyone, but aside from Twin Cobra, the best stuff is not available: Zero Gunner 2, Ketsui, Under Defeat. The best thing about developer weeks is that a specific style of game will get picked. Graphics-related themes are too arbitrary and much harder to fill out with anything worthwhile.

Cute'em up would probably be easiest and make about five people really happy.

MX7 · Post by **MX7** » Fri Aug 01, 2008 11:24 pm

moozooh wrote:
MX7 wrote:When did you actually explain why chaining is bad? I personally don't like chaining. Are you dismissing it because you personally don't like chaining?
Chaining requires very precise memorization of routes and enemy patterns, and as a whole, it's very unforgivable due to the exponential nature of the chains (especially if they're long as in DDP). It's not bad per se, it's bad for a week's play because it's one of the hardest scoring system types to pick up.

Cool, cool, I completely agree. I was just worried someone might be dismissing a game due to personal preference.

mikwuyma · Post by **mikwuyma** » Sat Aug 02, 2008 1:31 am

Sorry I didn't explain my reasoning, MX7. It's just that I know a lot of people on shmups.com wouldn't like a game based on strict chaining for a scoring week, and I assumed that everyone else would just know that as if it was common knowledge.

Twiddle · Post by **Twiddle** » Sat Aug 02, 2008 1:42 am

mikwuyma wrote:Sorry I didn't explain my reasoning, MX7. It's just that I know a lot of people on shmups.com wouldn't like a game based on strict chaining for a scoring week, and I assumed that everyone else would just know that as if it was common knowledge.

sik wouldn't

Post by **Icarus** » Sat Aug 02, 2008 1:59 am

Twiddle wrote:sik wouldn't

But he's an alien creature, so that doesn't count.