DoDonPachi (New Thread #3)

moozooh · Post by **moozooh** » Fri Jun 06, 2008 8:51 pm

Another possible way to get the required points without considerable chain extends is increasing the chain's overall value by starting it with a more "expensive" enemy (something to look into for stages 2, 3, and perhaps 6?), and, uh, collecting more stars.

elfhentaifan · Post by **elfhentaifan** » Fri Jun 06, 2008 9:18 pm

the stars are worth poop.
Its propably more aggressive playing -> kill (big) enemies faster which makes more bonus enemies appear.

+ you automatically have to have the maximum possible chains.

Thats why i mentioned stage 1-3, before, its not 12mio he lost, but sure some important points for the perfect loop.

PROMETHEUS · Post by **PROMETHEUS** » Fri Jun 06, 2008 9:30 pm

elfhentaifan wrote:Thats why i mentioned stage 1-3, before, its not 12mio he lost, but sure some important points for the perfect loop.

I really don't think so, there is nothing special to chain in 1-3. The first chain HAS to stop at the "midboss", it's 110 hits and the largest chain in the stage, worth only 1,5M. The second chain is small and worth nothing (50 and some hits at most), you couldn't benefit from carrying it to the bullet canceling ships afterwards because you really NEED to break your chain to benefit from the bullet canceling which is worth a lot of points, and anyway I don't think you could possibly do that. The last chain is worth nearly nothing as well. There's nothing special to be had in 1-3 that I didn't get.

I know my 1-1, 1-2, and 1-4 are nearly perfect too, the only possibilities left that I'm seeing is somehow enhancing the 1-5 chain, or enhancing the 1-6 chain which I now is possible by leaching more hits from the 2 large tanks near the beginning, although this is not worth many points. The rest of the level I do "perfectly".

Really, I'm quite sure if they do get 225M~, they get a full or nearly full 1-5 chain, which is surprising.

stanski · Post by **stanski** » Fri Jun 06, 2008 10:19 pm

Just a note as to where you are not perfect with chains, I don't know if you even care because they are so small but some of them are really easy to incorporate:

stage 1: you can get 192 hits and 62 hits respectively, I don't exactly know how to get 192 hits but 62 hits is easy. Best score here is 3.83 million (many points can be gained through the boss battle, by cancelling more bullets while still getting all 10 big stars).

stage 2: 495 hits possible, I usually get 492 hits though.

stage 3: its really easy to chain all those star carriers into the blue ships, I just leave the last 3 ships on the right alive and kill them just as the bottom one leaves the screen to fill the meter up. It is also possible to link the first few "bullet cancelling enemies" into this chain to boost the points a bit if you leave some of the popcorn enemies alive, killing them very slowly, then chaining in the bomb/power icon ship. I also don't know if it helps, but I always leave 1 of the turrets that shoots 2 lines of bullets alive so that there are more bullets to cancel. Also, the 3rd bullet cancelling ship can cancel a lot more bullets if you wait longer to kill it. Oh, and one more thing, you can chain all the last bullet cancelling enemies into the end of stage chain.

All these little changes add up to my maximum ever being about 39-40 million total (I can see 40.5 million being possible with a better player and my strategies, I'm sure my strategies aren't even optimal either). Not much at all, so I don't think the points come from here, but I'm terrible and am still leaching a few more points in these levels.

stage 4: you can get a few more hit points (not sure how many) out of the blooming flowers and a couple other places with big enemies (lasering from far away).

after that, I can't fully chain anything so I can't comment on the chains at all. i do know that I have tried to fully chain stage 5 with slowdown (the end part specifically) and concluded that I didn't think it was feasible with my strategies (I got all the way to those enemies with the straight shots coming from the left and right on the ground, but couldn't connect them). you'd have to be pretty creative to chain it methinks.

Also note that there are bullet cancelling sections of stage 5 too, so you can gain some valuable points from that.

Can you get more hits by letting those tanks at the beginning shoot out more destroyable stars?

I hope you're not offended by me giving critiques of the first loop as its way better than anything I will ever do, I'm just trying to suggest where some extra points can come from. i know how annoying it can be from speedrunning when you spend 15 hours trying to shave 2 seconds off of a very optimized level, then someone says "well it looks like you could have shaved a bit of time here" when you know that it didn't matter at all. But I do think that we need to realize that these people are the best in the world, and will go to any lengths to break the record, so no matter how unbelievable it is remember that it is still humanly possible to scrape out points in areas where it doesn't seem to matter much (though there must be other tactics they have used to scrape more points, or they might have a better understanding of the underlying scoring system and therefore have higher scoring chain routes through levels).

edit:
Also, stage 2-3 is chainable too isn't it? I think so because of the new chaining properties, though it needs to be tested if doing this or if cancelling more bullets is more important.

PROMETHEUS · Post by **PROMETHEUS** » Fri Jun 06, 2008 10:49 pm

It's okay I don't mind critique. I am aware of those possibilities you mentioned, except for the 495 hits in 1-2. However like you said in the beginning of your post, I don't really care at all about minor improvements I could make to my chains or routes, for 3 reasons :
- All of them added together are only worth the equivalent of 15 more seconds of survival in 2nd loop.
- Some of them add risk/difficulty.
- I'm not trying to break no world record.

Those guys doing everything optimally are trying to break records, those little details count because what they are looking for is a freaking perfect run, and small improvements are what's going to make the difference.

But my target score / achievement is far enough from a world record that I don't need to take care of such minor details. I could accept my final run to include a chain break in 1-5 or 1-6, even though that would impact my score negatively much more than minor improvements would impact it positively. I could accept to survive with the max bomb bonus 1 minute less than possible, although this means losing something like 25 or 30M. So I'm just not interested in minor improvements that would bring my possible loop 1 score to 204M instead of 200M, especially if they involve any risk or effort.

Arvandor · Post by **Arvandor** » Sat Jun 07, 2008 12:41 am

Stage 1-2 chains: 485 (full)

Eh? Nonsense, I can get 492, and I'm pretty sure the run on super-play gets 495 =P Not that it's worth more than a few hundred thousand points, but still.

jpj · Post by **jpj** » Sat Jun 07, 2008 2:01 am

i tried with the shitty search function... but can anyone post a link to the japanese webpage that showed all the DDP records as they were set chronologically (for all three types)? i remember it listing all things like max hit, date, and notes stuff. there might be some clues there

it certainly sounds like a 1-5 full chain.

moozooh · Post by **moozooh** » Sat Jun 07, 2008 9:17 am

Arvandor wrote:
Stage 1-2 chains: 485 (full)
Eh? Nonsense, I can get 492, and I'm pretty sure the run on super-play gets 495 =P Not that it's worth more than a few hundred thousand points, but still.

Full = "without breaks", not "all possible hits".

PROMETHEUS · Post by **PROMETHEUS** » Sat Jun 07, 2008 1:16 pm

Here's a 2-ALL I just did right now (my 5th I think), with a very nice ending : I start the fight with Hibachi with only 2 lives left and 1 bomb but still manage to kill him, did some really cool dodging on the last pattern with 0 bomb left. The run scores only 402M though, mistakes happened mostly in 2-4 and 2-6. I suggest you skip through to 2-4 or 2-5 or even just Hibachi with F10 & F8 if you want to see it :p

2-ALL replay || dodonpachij rom addon required || recorded with wolfmame99

BER · Post by **BER** » Sat Jun 07, 2008 2:08 pm

jpj wrote:but can anyone post a link to the japanese webpage that showed all the DDP records as they were set chronologically (for all three types)?

This one?

http://page.freett.com/hatty/donpachi/score.html

PROMETHEUS · Post by **PROMETHEUS** » Sat Jun 07, 2008 4:05 pm

BER wrote:
jpj wrote:but can anyone post a link to the japanese webpage that showed all the DDP records as they were set chronologically (for all three types)?
This one?

http://page.freett.com/hatty/donpachi/score.html

Hi BER ! Thx for the link.

moozooh · Post by **moozooh** » Sat Jun 07, 2008 4:29 pm

Interestingly, the page doesn't say what score did the current C-S WR have by the end of the 1st loop; 225 million were achieved in the previous attempt by NAI. Similarly, WTN's 1st loop score is 217.97 million, i.e., 218M.

I'm a bit curious, though: how exactly is it possible that C-S chains better and has a better 1st loop score, yet always loses to A-L by the overall score? Even if it had 5 remaining lives like the A-L WR, it'd still have only 732-something million, 16 million less. I can't believe this is due to better hit-chaining fast moving bosses C type can't keep up with, like Hibachi's 2nd form. The difference can't be that large.

PROMETHEUS · Post by **PROMETHEUS** » Sat Jun 07, 2008 5:16 pm

Maybe some tricks to chain in 2nd loop are significantly harder to do with C-S and the probability of success for a perfect run was so low that the best players gave up before doing everything perfectly inside one run.

jpj · Post by **jpj** » Sat Jun 07, 2008 5:18 pm

more players competing with A-L than either B or C type, so naturally i think "top" score for type A would be higher.

spongdangly · Post by **spongdangly** » Mon Jun 09, 2008 1:57 am

spongdangly - 19'487'560 - C-S - 1-5 - 274

While I realise that compared to most of you this score is quite low but it's still enough to take the #50 spot.

Congratz to Prometheus on his ridiculous score. Way to more then double your closest competition's score.

Necronopticous · Post by **Necronopticous** » Mon Jun 09, 2008 11:14 pm

Hey guys. My girlfriend just started playing DoDonpachi, so I decided to put in a few runs after a year and a half hiatus...This is the best I could do. ;[

Necronopticous - 38,985,050 - C-S - 1-ALL - 241

PROMETHEUS · Post by **PROMETHEUS** » Mon Jun 09, 2008 11:16 pm

uh uh, necronopticous playing dodonpachi !~!

Necronopticous · Post by **Necronopticous** » Tue Jun 10, 2008 8:05 pm

A little better...

Necronopticous - 42,982,070 - C-S - 2-1 - 335

Jck · Post by **Jck** » Thu Jun 12, 2008 7:18 am

PROMETHEUS wrote:Here's a 2-ALL I just did right now

Congrats Prometheus!

PROMETHEUS · Post by **PROMETHEUS** » Thu Jun 12, 2008 10:47 am

Jck wrote:
PROMETHEUS wrote:Here's a 2-ALL I just did right now
Congrats Prometheus! :shock:

eheh thanks my friend ;]

P_HAT · Post by **P_HAT** » Thu Jun 12, 2008 11:25 am

haha,
PROMETHEUS kick ass!
great work man!

bitkid · Post by **bitkid** » Fri Jun 13, 2008 8:52 am

Bitkid - Type A/L - 12,709,480 - Stage 4 - Chain (I forgot)

zlk · Post by **zlk** » Fri Jun 13, 2008 5:32 pm

Great scores Prometheus! If you record any more 2-all replays, be sure to upload them somewhere.

I think there isn't any magical reason why the a-l top score is more than the c-s or b-l top ship scores. The fact of the matter is that sof-wtn is just that good. He probably full chained every level possible (all levels but 1-3/2-3) and died once on the hibachi.

In the ddp professional volume 1 tape, NAI shows that it is possible to full combo 2-5 and 2-6 with the c-s ship, it is just hard to pull off in a run.

moozooh · Post by **moozooh** » Fri Jun 13, 2008 5:40 pm

The thing is, A-L > C-S > B-L hierarchy is being prevalent no matter how you look at it. Take Takuro's TASes: A-L > C-S > B-L, and that's one person doing them.

Also, a new personal best for me, and the first DDP run that I recorded:

moozooh - 20,232,990 - A-L - 1-5 - 126 (replay).

Use the international DDP ROM (ddonpach.zip) and this version of FinalBurn Alpha to replay. I found out it was the only emulator that supported desyncless recording, wasn't picky about ROMs, and didn't make me sit through the intro every time I had to restart.

Stages 1-2 weren't the best for me (nowadays I usually score about half a million more on them combined, with at least one 140+ hit chain on either), but stage 3 went quite decent. It was one of those extremely rare times when I manage to go through the entirety of the bullet-cancel segment no-miss/no-bombing. Also, much fun during the boss fight.

Stage 4: made a few streaming mistakes and ran out of bombs. The death at the boss was due to a very timely lag spike; normally I never die nor bomb this pattern (I paused the emulator and turned off all programs immediately afterwards). Dodging the last pattern is the funniest thing seen in this stage (if not in the whole replay), I still can't believe it went exactly as it looked.

Stage 5: the first bombing was completely unwarranted, I was just a bit nervous due to the stage 4 boss fight (lol). The first death in this stage was a complete and utter shock. I mean, just look at it: I was shot by a popcorn tank at point-blank. Fucking A. The next death was pretty stupid as well, I totally could have dodged that through. And I need to move less when streaming, that's for sure. Boss fight was awful. First I forgot to position myself befor the first spam volley. Then I forgot about the existence of the second spam volley. Then I was too slow to bomb. Then I foolishly tried to use the safe spot and quickly died. Thus ends my credit.

elfhentaifan · Post by **elfhentaifan** » Fri Jun 13, 2008 7:08 pm

talk less and play more, moozooh

moozooh · Post by **moozooh** » Fri Jun 13, 2008 7:11 pm

You didn't update my score! I want to take a screenshot of being in top-50 before I get displaced by another 30M run or something like that. :D

elfhentaifan · Post by **elfhentaifan** » Fri Jun 13, 2008 7:18 pm

its fairly hard to mess around with a touchpad and a keyboad that lacks of some buttons.
Gonna take care of this when im back home.

Also if you put (just a little) dedication in that game you can easily step up 10 places in the chart.

lgb · Post by **lgb** » Fri Jun 13, 2008 8:05 pm

elfhentaifan wrote:talk less and play more, moozooh

Well, you aren't in the high score board either.

moozooh · Post by **moozooh** » Fri Jun 13, 2008 8:26 pm

elfhentaifan wrote:its fairly hard to mess around with a touchpad and a keyboad that lacks of some buttons.
Gonna take care of this when im back home.

Also if you put (just a little) dedication in that game you can easily step up 10 places in the chart.

I know, I'm aiming for a proper A-L 1-ALL actually (gonna definitely do it this summer), but I still make a stupid amount of mistakes every now and then (and I can't rely on a surprise extend or on endless bomb supply like in Batrider, lol). That, and I still don't really like chaining. 100+ hit chains are not unusual for me, but it's more because I'm just trying to kill enemies quicker, or it's them who are stumbling upon my laser. That's the reason I never once had a 200+ hit chain.

PROMETHEUS · Post by **PROMETHEUS** » Fri Jun 13, 2008 8:58 pm

zlk wrote:Great scores Prometheus! If you record any more 2-all replays, be sure to upload them somewhere.

I have 6 recorded 2-ALLs but I'm not sure you guys want to see it, except for the one that scores higher than the one I released. Basically I always do almost exactly the same thing in each run, the main differences between two 2-ALLs is where I fuck up, and the fight against Hibachi that always differs a little more than a regular stage :p Of course since the game randomizes bullets some stuff will look more "spectacular" in one run than the other but other than that it's just similar.

As usual thx for your compliments guys. Your words and attention are part of why I kept going and reached this far ~!