5th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time! - Results

[Turrican]

You should feel ashamed that your actions affect this whole community.

Look, regardless of the system chosen, any voter's actions affects the outcome. Heck, it's pretty obvious to me that even the choice of *not* voting affects the results, may it be declared in public or not.

Anyway, I think we discussed this enough... It's pretty clear that each system has its own merits and flaws. I will only add that if the voting rules change, of course a comparison with previous charts would become useless at best and misleading at worst. In other words, we'd lose one of the interesting aspects of doing this each year - to look for some kind of taste evolution inside these charts. That's not saying I'm against the change at all costs - only, it must be a well thought decision and hopefully the outcome should stick for years to come.

The real issue we should debate is that this year witnessed a genetical alteration of the shmup criteria. I can vote for shmups whichever rules you set, but I won't vote anymore if the definition criteria remains as broad as it is now. It just isn't what Malc intended in the beginning.

[Rob]

This is feeling like a repeat of the DDP thread, except there's even less of a reason (if possible) for people to get upset.

[The Coop]

I'm just waiting for the periodic table to somehow get introduced into it

[Michaelm]

I will only add that if the voting rules change, of course a comparison with previous charts would become useless at best and misleading at worst.

This years list is useless and misleading because some people took soem actions to make it so.

In other words, we'd lose one of the interesting aspects of doing this each year - to look for some kind of taste evolution inside these charts.

If people tend to misuse their vote then the list is by no means a taste evolution of this forum.
The list Ceph recalculated is much more of a taste evaluation of this forum.
Simply because it's a true representation of how many times a particular game was in someone's list.
I just can't believe anyone will be interested in a list where a game makes it just because a few people gave it a whole lot of weight. Those few people are nothing compared to the amount of voters.

What if next year Last Hope will make it to the list because 4 people or so voted highly for it.
Will it then be an evaluation of this forum's taste ?
Hell no, check the topics about Last Hope and you'll soon learn most people here hate the game.
IMHO it's better to have a more simple list then the current one with it's extreme flaw.

The real issue we should debate is that this year witnessed a genetical alteration of the shmup criteria. I can vote for shmups whichever rules you set, but I won't vote anymore if the definition criteria remains as broad as it is now. It just isn't what Malc intended in the beginning.

Ok, I get your point. I didn't know I could vote for Outzone. I would have if I knew.

[DJ Incompetent]

I'm just waiting for the periodic table to somehow get introduced into it

cigs would need to make a few more avatars

[szycag]

This is getting silly, what's so wrong with this year's list? Not enough to call it "misleading" or "useless" surely. Come on, it's just what we've all been playing lately.

[louisg]

I won't vote anymore if the definition criteria remains as broad as it is now. It just isn't what Malc intended in the beginning.

What? I remember shmup having way more borderliners back then, including, for instance, reviews of the textmode Doom-ish game Monster Land, Dogs of War for Atari ST, and Operation Logic Bomb for SNES.

[Acid King]

Then why aren't you ?!?
Why do you misuse the voting system to get your one game on the list ?
Is that honesty ? You had to calculate and stuff. You call that honesty ?

.

If he likes Stargate that much more than those other games, how is it not honest?

[Michaelm]

Then why aren't you ?!?
Why do you misuse the voting system to get your one game on the list ?
Is that honesty ? You had to calculate and stuff. You call that honesty ?

.

If he likes Stargate that much more than those other games, how is it not honest?

By voting for a top 1 instead of a top 25 as the name of the list implies.
If we would all do that next year how do you think the list will be ?
The rules could be extremely simplified then. Everyone just lists 1 game and we're set.

I'm not interested in the preference of one individual.
I'd like to see a list that represents this forum likings and that is quite hard with the current system as people can actively influence a game's position on the list.
If there is just 1 point per game this is not possible at all.
If a lot of people like a game the chance is quite big other people will like the game too.
But if only 3 or 4 people like the game the best and nobody else lists the game the chance is bigger that other people might not like the game at all.
So it has nothing to do in a top25 list. It's misleading and useless for the purpose.

[durias]

According to the first post in this thread, one of the top 25 originally came out on the PS2 and one of the honorable mentions originally came out on the Sega Saturn. Do you know which games these are?

[incognoscente]

Gradius V + ThunderForce V

[durias]

Gradius V + ThunderForce V

THANKS!

[Turrican]

I won't vote anymore if the definition criteria remains as broad as it is now. It just isn't what Malc intended in the beginning.

What? I remember shmup having way more borderliners back then, including, for instance, reviews of the textmode Doom-ish game Monster Land, Dogs of War for Atari ST, and Operation Logic Bomb for SNES.

Yes, and during the MkII period they were all conveniently under the appropriate section: "Borderliners - not shmups, but shooty enough"

[Acid King]

By voting for a top 1 instead of a top 25 as the name of the list implies.
If we would all do that next year how do you think the list will be ?
The rules could be extremely simplified then. Everyone just lists 1 game and we're set.

He DID list more than one game though, it's just that he put more behind stargate than the others. It's not dishonest to show your preference.

I'm not interested in the preference of one individual.
I'd like to see a list that represents this forum likings and that is quite hard with the current system as people can actively influence a game's position on the list.
If there is just 1 point per game this is not possible at all.
If a lot of people like a game the chance is quite big other people will like the game too.
But if only 3 or 4 people like the game the best and nobody else lists the game the chance is bigger that other people might not like the game at all.
So it has nothing to do in a top25 list. It's misleading and useless for the purpose.

...which is all bullshit because all his vote did was push a game into the HONORABLE MENTIONS. It's not like his vote impacted the top 25 at all. It pushed one game into the second tier list. Not everyone would do that because not everyones preferences are that slanted. Besides that, active attempts by members to campaign for games distorts the results as bad, if not worse than the single voter putting all of his vote behind one. No matter what voting system we have it's going to be worked by members to push certain games like we had with cute 'em ups or jaws and his pushing of stargate. Regardless, one game being pushed into a second tier list doesn't make the voting system bad, it makes it as imperfect as any voting procedure you could come up with.

[God]

The more I think about it the more I'm starting to favor one system. I'm gonna take a crack at making a better case for it.

Rate games from 0 to 5, average the scores.
-The result wouldn't just be a measure of a game's popularity.
-Relatively simple for voters.
-It wouldn't depend on qualified voters so everyone can participate. (More experienced voters would get more influence though, just because they know more games well enough to rate.)

We would have a complete list of what everyone on the board has played (enough to rate) and how much they liked it. We could do all kinds of neat things with that.

Curious at all to see what percentage of people here have actually played Radiant Silvergun and is it going up or down from year to year? We'd just count how many people rated it. No more estimating this kind of thing based on the high scores thread. We could do it for every game and make a 25 most widely played list. (This would also give us a rough idea of how many people really meet the current list's very strict voter criteria.) Anybody who feels like would be able to make his own list from the data. Bottom 25, whatever.

The big problem with this system is: games with only one vote can easily have a perfect score. Saying a game can't make the top 25 until 10% of voters have rated it will stop that from messing up the list.

[Rob]

You might be interested in this: http://shmup.com/?page=stat

(ugly list! Gynoug and Under Defeat in the top 5!)

[Sonic R]

You might be interested in this: http://shmup.com/?page=stat

(ugly list! Gynoug and Under Defeat in the top 5!)

I am liking the french list?

Under Defeat is in my top 25 and Wings of Wor makes my top 37!

[Rob]

Wings of Wor makes my top 170! Under Defeat, eh, 85.

[doctorx0079]

The more I think about it the more I'm starting to favor one system. I'm gonna take a crack at making a better case for it.

Rate games from 0 to 5, average the scores.
-The result wouldn't just be a measure of a game's popularity.
-Relatively simple for voters.
-It wouldn't depend on qualified voters so everyone can participate. (More experienced voters would get more influence though, just because they know more games well enough to rate.)

We would have a complete list of what everyone on the board has played (enough to rate) and how much they liked it. We could do all kinds of neat things with that.

It seems like the voting would take 9 years.

[durias]

Can the PS1 games that made the Top 25 be played on the PS2?

[durias]

...and is there much of a difference between the PS2, DC, and GC versions of Shikigami no Shiro 2/Castle Shikigami 2?

Thanks in advance!

[Rob]

Can the PS1 games that made the Top 25 be played on the PS2?

I think Raiden DX can and can't. Can if it's the Hamster reissue. Anyone verify?

...and is there much of a difference between the PS2, DC, and GC versions of Shikigami no Shiro 2/Castle Shikigami 2?

I've owned all three and not much. Issues of slowdown (DC also had some sound problems). GC is the best, but the controller/needing boot disc.

[nZero]

Can the PS1 games that made the Top 25 be played on the PS2?

I think Raiden DX can and can't. Can if it's the Hamster reissue. Anyone verify?

Both versions work fine here. PS1 w/ Stealth Elite and PS2 V12 w/ Matrix Infinity.

[BulletMagnet]

I think Raiden DX can and can't. Can if it's the Hamster reissue. Anyone verify?

I have the original release and it plays fine on my JPS2.

[system11]

I wish I had a time machine now. Having now played Espgaluda 2, it would be in my top 5 without question. Oh well.

[-Bridget-]

I just got to play DoDonPachi (the original) for the first time,

And I have to say,

I already agree with it's placement in that listing up there.



That, was way too freaking awesome. Found DDP2, as well, finally.


Yup, there goes my whole week, right there, lol.

[durias]

I just got to play DoDonPachi (the original) for the first time,

And I have to say,

I already agree with it's placement in that listing up there.



That, was way too freaking awesome. Found DDP2, as well, finally.


Yup, there goes my whole week, right there, lol.

Right on! I've found that this list has been helpful to me as I've gotten more serious about shmups. The list makes it easier to start in the right place and not waste money on lower tier games.

[-Bridget-]

Indeed.

Though, if I had my way,


Mushihime-sama would probably be number 2 (it's my favorite, it is, but I personally like DDP's scoring system better, though it's similar, I think...), and Giga Wing, another favorite of mine would be somewhat higher.


Now, though, Im gonna make it a goal to try and play as many of these top 25 as possible. Im finding I tend to agree with people's opinions on this board as a whole.

[Shatterhand]

Sorry for taking so long to reply, but....

Despite from the Stargate-drama, I think it would maybe good to work a bit on the system the poll works. I stated that last year. And therefore I would like to suggest another solution and maybe start a constuctive discussion about renewing things.


So in order to not confuse people too much, we can have the same voting system and just change the way it is counted.

I think if simply every listed games get a position/points assigned independant scoreboost for appearing on a list.

...for exemple like this:
Total share of one person points 10'000 (or enter other random number)
Every time a game makes it on a list +10'000

So if someone votes like this:

[500'000] [Lame Game]
[300] [Halo 2]
[150] [Pocco Rosso]


points would be calculated like this:

[500'000] [Lame Game]
-share of his point pie: 9991
-shortlisted game bonus: 10000
=19991

[300] [Halo 2]
share of his point pie: 6
shortlisted game bonus: 10000
=10006

[150] [Pocco Rosso]
share of his point pie: 3
shortlisted game bonus: 10000
=10003

This way huge point gaps can't unbalance the scoring anymore. Because even if someone puts his whole voting power behind one single game, he can't overcome 2 voters, no matter how small of their pie they gave the game.

So the points would be more used as a tiebreaker. Alternatively we could change the points assigned to rule to a system where people only list games and positions and are allowed to put several games on the same position if they can't decide. But if the points will make a small impact, it wouldn't be really neccessary.


And offcourse Zach Keene, I think no ones in here doubts that you are and have always done a great job with this poll. The contoversy caused in this very thead shows how much this list has grown on the users how much they bother for it's outcome. So we hope you will continue the great work.

Erm, did no one read this? I think we really should start some constructive discussion about the voting method,and I think Edge gave a very good idea.

Ceph said it was "too complicated", but for the VOTERS, it's as complicated as last year. Who is voting won't see any difference, it's just the calculations that will be different, and I think it could work very well.

I won't be able to do my yearly boost to Zanac Neo and Aleste 2, but oh well (Nah, I never gave my WHOLE pie to any game, I think my votes had always been very balanced)

[Zach Keene]

The scoring system already sort of works like that; two-thirds of a game's final score comes from how many people voted for it, while the importance score makes up the final third.