5th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time! - Discussion thread

[angrycoder]

^ Meh, obviously some posters can't think in 9 dimensions. Thanks for the mature reply...

The problem is this topic has been beat to death ad infinitum

[j^aws]

^ Meh, obviously some posters can't think in 9 dimensions. Thanks for the mature reply...

The problem is this topic has been beat to death ad infinitum

What problem? There are plenty of other topics that do this. (See sticks vs pads etc.)

Also reading skills? I made an apology before posting it because I was fully aware what Turrican posted. I skimmed through the links too and no conclusion was made, that doesn't mean a solution doesn't exist... Anyway I've solved far more complex problems than this.

No one forced you to submit a worthless post. If you have nothing to add then don't post it.

Back on topic:

Vote Stargate you shmuppets!

[angrycoder]

^ Meh, obviously some posters can't think in 9 dimensions. Thanks for the mature reply...

The problem is this topic has been beat to death ad infinitum

What problem? There are plenty of other topics that do this. (See sticks vs pads etc.)

Also reading skills? I made an apology before posting it because I was fully aware what Turrican posted. I skimmed through the links too and no conclusion was made, that doesn't mean a solution doesn't exist... Anyway I've solved far more complex problems than this.

No one forced you to submit a worthless post. If you have nothing to add then don't post it.
Back on topic:

Vote Stargate you shmuppets!

Fine, have fun trying to prove 2+2 = purple.

What is or isn't a shmup is pretty much a matter of opinion, its not a problem to be solved.

Anything beyond the basic sub categories of verts, horis, single screen, and area shooters quickly devolves into a giant list of exceptions and rules lawyering.

[j^aws]

Fine, have fun trying to prove 2+2 = purple.

What is or isn't a shmup is pretty much a matter of opinion, its not a problem to be solved.

It's a DISCUSSION forum...

...Of course Rob is right when he says there's not a strict rule, and in this case I guess Zaxxon is considered the exception.

I disagreed with the above statement. I provided my opinion detailing why.

Thanks for playing.

[God]

Is Neo Contra an arena shmup? Its not really what I think of when I think "shmup" but it seems pretty close to Smash Tv.

I've been trying to follow the arguments and checking the glossery.

[MX7]

I got pretty confused when writing down my list, to the pioint where I just erred on the side of caution. For example, I really wanted Axelay to be in my top 25, but I could just see someone disagreeing. I did stick down Geometry Wars though. I don't think anyone should have a problem with that (:

[Thunder Force]

I got pretty confused when writing down my list, to the pioint where I just erred on the side of caution. For example, I really wanted Axelay to be in my top 25

Axelay is a legal voting choice (it made it into my top 25 this year too); feel free to edit your list if you still want it there.

Is Neo Contra an arena shmup?

Neo Contra is not eligible.

[Turrican]

I'm gonna throw out a discussion point to qualify for a shmup, or at least an essential criteria;

- If the screen space is an XY plane, at any given point in time, your character should be able to reach *any* point, (excluding obstacles of course). This maybe with auto-scroll or push-scroll.

It's not an essential criteria - Solvalou [edit:]read: Xevious can't do that, for example, so being able to reach any point is just seen as an evolution occurred from proto-shmups (or, as you call them "character 1D" shmups) to shmups.

...Of course Rob is right when he says there's not a strict rule, and in this case I guess Zaxxon is considered the exception.

^ Verdict? Can of Worms?

Not really. The verdict is, over the course of the years we managed a geometrical definition that pretty much allows in 99% of what we wanted and leaves out the rest (run'n guns, fps, action games, shooting games, Solar assaults, Zoradiuses and so on). The fact that Zaxxon (but not viewpoint!) is one of the very few games that don't fit the definition is a proof that it mostly works.

[The Coop]

...Of course Rob is right when he says there's not a strict rule, and in this case I guess Zaxxon is considered the exception.

^ Verdict? Can of Worms?

Not really. The verdict is, over the course of the years we managed a geometrical definition that pretty much allows in 99% of what we wanted and leaves out the rest (run'n guns, fps, action games, shooting games, Solar assaults, Zoradiuses and so on). The fact that Zaxxon (but not viewpoint!) is one of the very few games that don't fit the definition is a proof that it mostly works.

Well, a geometrical definition that a few agreed on. To me, saying Galaxy Force II isn't a shmup sounds as silly as saying DoDonpachi isn't one. But, to each his own. Agree to disagree and all that

[Turrican]

^ Verdict? Can of Worms?

Not really. The verdict is, over the course of the years we managed a geometrical definition that pretty much allows in 99% of what we wanted and leaves out the rest (run'n guns, fps, action games, shooting games, Solar assaults, Zoradiuses and so on). The fact that Zaxxon (but not viewpoint!) is one of the very few games that don't fit the definition is a proof that it mostly works.

Well, a geometrical definition that a few agreed on. To me, saying Galaxy Force II isn't a shmup sounds as silly as saying DoDonpachi isn't one. But, to each his own. Agree to disagree and all that

And yet the gameplay is much the same in something like Galaxy Force II. Fly a ship, dodge and fire, kill everything, weapon power ups, avoid crashing into the scenery, shields, ship speed adjusting, you move your ship on the x and y axis as the game auto scrolls you... the only real difference is the direction of the scroll. That one thing seems to be the sticking point for some. Interesting.

fly a ship= also in Wing Commander
dodge and fire = also in Time Crisis
kill everything = also in Doom
weapon power ups = also in Super Metroid
avoid crashin into scenery = also in Out Run

ship speed adjusting = feature limited to a few shmups.
move your ship on the x and y axis = yes; but we also need your own bullets to be within x and y axis, that's all. Anything that doesn't do this can still provide excellent shooting action, but "isn't" (doesn't feel/play as) a shmup.

As you see Coop, it's not like the matter hasn't been debated. The reason for a geometrical definition are obvious - any more generic definition ("dodge bullets, kill everything") would not define the genre at all. Especially since we're talking of videogames a medium that, from Space invaders to Half-Life, is almost always about shooting at stuff.

About the "few agreed on" - I wouldn't say so. Since Malc and Akira running the site, the definition has been pretty much the same - as nullstar wrote it. The only minor correction was a complete inclusion of proto-shmups (and therefore tube ones). We can say it's not perfect, but I'd say there has been a general consensus over it these years.

[The Coop]

Not really. The verdict is, over the course of the years we managed a geometrical definition that pretty much allows in 99% of what we wanted and leaves out the rest (run'n guns, fps, action games, shooting games, Solar assaults, Zoradiuses and so on). The fact that Zaxxon (but not viewpoint!) is one of the very few games that don't fit the definition is a proof that it mostly works.

Well, a geometrical definition that a few agreed on. To me, saying Galaxy Force II isn't a shmup sounds as silly as saying DoDonpachi isn't one. But, to each his own. Agree to disagree and all that

And yet the gameplay is much the same in something like Galaxy Force II. Fly a ship, dodge and fire, kill everything, weapon power ups, avoid crashing into the scenery, shields, ship speed adjusting, you move your ship on the x and y axis as the game auto scrolls you... the only real difference is the direction of the scroll. That one thing seems to be the sticking point for some. Interesting.

fly a ship= also in Wing Commander
dodge and fire = also in Time Crisis
kill everything = also in Doom
weapon power ups = also in Super Metroid
avoid crashin into scenery = also in Out Run
ship speed adjusting = feature limited to a few shmups.

As you see Coop, it's not like the matter hasn't been debated. The reason for a geometrical definition are obvious - any more generic definition ("dodge bullets, kill everything") would not define the genre at all. Especially since we're talking of videogames a medium that, from Space invaders to Half-Life, is almost always about shooting at stuff.

About the "few agreed on" - I wouldn't say so. Since Malc and Akira running the site, the definition has been pretty much the same - as nullstar wrote it. The only minor correction was a complete inclusion of proto-shmups (and therefore tube ones). We can say it's not perfect, but I'd say there has been a general consensus over it these years.

Well of course every aspect of a shmup can be applied to other games and genres. What can't these days?

But when you bring all the aspects of something like TF3 together, and place them next to the aspects of GFII, I find it hard to not call them both shmups. If you leave the gameplay just as it is in TF3, but turn it so the game scrolls "inward" instead of to the right, you'd be playing a game that felt much like GFII, Star Fox, or the auto scrolling "ship" levels of a game like Soul Star.

I can understand trying to weed out games like Midnight Resistance and its ilk, or Doom and its many offspring. "Shmup" has come to mean a very specific thing, just like "FPS", "RTS" and "Run 'N Gun" have. But if games like Star Fox and GFII aren't considered shmups, then in my apparently lone opinion, it sounds like the weed killer got on some of the roses

[j^aws]

I'm gonna throw out a discussion point to qualify for a shmup, or at least an essential criteria;

- If the screen space is an XY plane, at any given point in time, your character should be able to reach *any* point, (excluding obstacles of course). This maybe with auto-scroll or push-scroll.

It's not an essential criteria - Solvalou can't do that, for example, so being able to reach any point is just seen as an evolution occurred from proto-shmups (or, as you call them "character 1D" shmups) to shmups.
...
.

Are you sure you understand the above? ...I tested a boundary condition with it which I was familiar with, i.e. Quartet...If quartet is allowed, then it let's in run'n' guns like Metal Slug?

Also can you point me to this "geometrical definition" you speak of?

[Turrican]

Are you sure you understand the above? ...I tested a boundary condition with it which I was familiar with, i.e. Quartet...If quartet is allowed, then it let's in run'n' guns like Metal Slug?

Yes, I understand - Solvalou cannot access at any moment any point of the screen, because you can't advance to the very top of it because of your lock-on. So it's just a portion of the XY plane available, although a larger portion than Gaplus.
It's a moot point, however - in the moment we allow in all proto-shmups (Space invaders and the likes) we already imply that free movement on the XY plane is not an absolute requirement.

Also can you point me to this "geometrical definition" you speak of?

It's a nullstar post, probably in those threads I linked earlier... When I find it I will post it here.

[j^aws]

...we already imply that free movement on the XY plane is not an absolute requirement.

Just to be clear, my 'revised' criteria also implied this (in my large post), not the one you quoted above. Because it has a qualifier (obstacles) and allows for fixed screen with character 2D. If it isn't obvious, it allows games like Centipede.

It's a nullstar post, probably in those threads I linked earlier... When I find it I will post it here.

Thanks. I'd like to read what's already been 'agreed'.

[j^aws]

Are you sure you understand the above? ...I tested a boundary condition with it which I was familiar with, i.e. Quartet...If quartet is allowed, then it let's in run'n' guns like Metal Slug?

Yes, I understand - Solvalou cannot access at any moment any point of the screen, because you can't advance to the very top of it because of your lock-on. So it's just a portion of the XY plane available, although a larger portion than Gaplus.
...

I've just briefly messed with Solvalou via MAME (not fuly working though) and I'm not sure you understand. So that we can be on the same page/ wavelengh, this is how I would define Solvalou;

- Camera = ?D, gameworld = ?D, character = ?D

I'd elaborate, but I'd like to know how you would define Solvalou with that format?

[j^aws]

<snip>

For Zaxxon, the "camera" is 'decoupled' from the "gameworld" and rotated to give a sense of perspective and 3D, yet the gameworld and "character movement" still remain in 2D (but still overlap)...

I.e.


- Batsugun: camera = 2D, gameworld = 2D, character = 2D

- Zaxxon: camera = 3D, gameworld = 2D, character = 2D

<snip>

Typo update for Zaxxon:

- Zaxxon: camera = 3D, gameworld = 2D*, character = 3D

* I'll elaborate later...

[Turrican]

I've just briefly messed with Solvalou via MAME (not fuly working though) and I'm not sure you understand. So that we can be on the same page/ wavelengh, this is how I would define Solvalou;

- Camera = ?D, gameworld = ?D, character = ?D

I'd elaborate, but I'd like to know how you would define Solvalou with that format?

Sure:

Xevious: Camera 2D, Gameworld 2D character 2D

When I wrote Solvalou I meant Xevious. Solvalou is the name of the ship in Xevious, the first arcade game. I hope you didn't have to check that 3D shooting game because of this.
It was all to evident to me that no one could make a point for calling that one a shmup.

[Rob]

Hey guys what is a schmup?

[Edge]

When I originally came to this site, I thought that games like Star Fox and Space Harrier or even Metal Slug are shoot'em ups, I still think they are more shmupish like Kiki Kai Kai for example, but I just sticked to the definition people seemed to have agreed on here.

Anyway since you guys have been derailing this thread with the definition question a bit. How about opening an eplicit "shmup definiton thread" I think you might get more attention if you state some borderliners and a short definition of shmups in this thread's first post. I would also try to participate in this discussion and maybe some others would as well, that's if they did't get sick of discussing the same stuff over again and again.

Just because something was "once" agreed on doesn't mean it can never be rethinked and eventually be renewed. That's just my 2 cents so.

[The Coop]

Hey guys what is a schmup?

A school-based shoot'em up?

[Turrican]

When I originally came to this site, I thought that games like Star Fox and Space Harrier or even Metal Slug are shoot'em ups, I still think they are more shmupish like Kiki Kai Kai for example, but I just sticked to the definition people seemed to have agreed on here.

Anyway since you guys have been derailing this thread with the definition question a bit. How about opening an eplicit "shmup definiton thread" I think you might get more attention if you state some borderliners and a short definition of shmups in this thread's first post. I would also try to participate in this discussion and maybe some others would as well, that's if they did't get sick of discussing the same stuff over again and again.

Just because something was "once" agreed on doesn't mean it can never be rethinked and eventually be renewed. That's just my 2 cents so.

Sure - it's nice to see a cooperative mood, compared to the anger the whole debate caused years ago. When I asked to include tube shmups into voting, all I was doing was to show they already had the requirements to fill the current definition. I wasn't trying to change it radically because I always felt it was a good one. I'm afraid however that nullstar's definition post was before the last forum reset:

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?t=1309
(it's not a big loss, you can easily get the picture of nullstar's stance on those two threads mentioned before)

However, it's not like things stayed the same forever:

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?t=2169

This [2004] is the first year votes for protoshmups (i.e. one-degree of player movement; e.g. Space Invaders, Galaga) were explicitly encouraged. And Galaga did come quite close to making the top 25.

Next year Zach Keene took over the annual poll from nullstar, and tube shooters were included as well. So we've changed it for the sake of the annual poll, but without asking "what is a shmup" around too much, because we saw it would easily sparkle flame and controversy. The whole thing became semi-official: mods could always move a Rez topic in the OT forum, but a definition wasn't stated. Call it a truce, if you want.
It's also interesting to notice that even the recently-inaugurated forum FAQ doesn't have one.

Imho it's important to recognize that shmups was created not to label a genre (the broader "shooting game"), but a specific subgenre, and if you cross the line of "bullets not on the same XY plane as ship and enemies" you get something that feels and plays different from what Malc reviewed here in the beginning. To better explain my stance, I would welcome Contra in the genre before resolving to admit Space Harrier in - which always felt "3D" to me. Sure, we can say "shmup is shooty, so any kind of shooting will do, either inside a flat plane or inside a cube" - but that's the "shooting game" family, and we're talking of the shmup branch.

I don't think a new debate will move much from there, but for the sake of transparency, why not. It cannot be much worse than the nth "is it even possible to 1cc shumps?" thread. Wait there, no rush - I'm warning the mods: they'll want to open it if it's going to be official.

[DJ Incompetent]

Well, a geometrical definition that a few agreed on. To me, saying Galaxy Force II isn't a shmup sounds as silly as saying DoDonpachi isn't one. But, to each his own. Agree to disagree and all that

And yet the gameplay is much the same in something like Galaxy Force II. Fly a ship, dodge and fire, kill everything, weapon power ups, avoid crashing into the scenery, shields, ship speed adjusting, you move your ship on the x and y axis as the game auto scrolls you... the only real difference is the direction of the scroll. That one thing seems to be the sticking point for some. Interesting.

fly a ship= also in Wing Commander
dodge and fire = also in Time Crisis
kill everything = also in Doom
weapon power ups = also in Super Metroid
avoid crashin into scenery = also in Out Run
ship speed adjusting = feature limited to a few shmups.

As you see Coop, it's not like the matter hasn't been debated. The reason for a geometrical definition are obvious - any more generic definition ("dodge bullets, kill everything") would not define the genre at all. Especially since we're talking of videogames a medium that, from Space invaders to Half-Life, is almost always about shooting at stuff.

About the "few agreed on" - I wouldn't say so. Since Malc and Akira running the site, the definition has been pretty much the same - as nullstar wrote it. The only minor correction was a complete inclusion of proto-shmups (and therefore tube ones). We can say it's not perfect, but I'd say there has been a general consensus over it these years.

Well of course every aspect of a shmup can be applied to other games and genres. What can't these days?

But when you bring all the aspects of something like TF3 together, and place them next to the aspects of GFII, I find it hard to not call them both shmups. If you leave the gameplay just as it is in TF3, but turn it so the game scrolls "inward" instead of to the right, you'd be playing a game that felt much like GFII, Star Fox, or the auto scrolling "ship" levels of a game like Soul Star.

I can understand trying to weed out games like Midnight Resistance and its ilk, or Doom and its many offspring. "Shmup" has come to mean a very specific thing, just like "FPS", "RTS" and "Run 'N Gun" have. But if games like Star Fox and GFII aren't considered shmups, then in my apparently lone opinion, it sounds like the weed killer got on some of the roses

Yeah, I couldn't find an original convo deciding Zoradius & Solar Assault null & void. I wanted to exploit a loophole so I could put Star Fox on my list ^_-

*pours a 40 on the porch* "To ma-boy Vic Viper. You were the definition of shoot 'em up. -And then you wern't."




I vote Danny for most comically organized failure to follow directions.

[Turrican]

Also can you point me to this "geometrical definition" you speak of? I'd like to read what's already been 'agreed'.

I'm sorry, the best I could do was to recompile here some of nullstar more recent posts on the subject:


nullstar: No Borderliners! Stuff that's off-limits generally include: "run-and-gun" (think Contra or Mercs); arena shooters (Robotron, Smash TV, etc.); on-rails/into-the-screen shooters (Rez, Panzer Dragoon, Space Harrier, etc.); tube shooters (Tempest, Gyruss, etc.).

Turrican: Nullstar, I see some serious problem here. We should get back to that "what is a shmup" debate we had. Tube shmups are shmups by any means. the ship is on the same plane as the enemies, the difference with Defender / Fantasy Zone is none.

Berty: Anything where the primary mode of fire moves along the Z axis i dont think should be considered a shmup, afterall Z axis movement puts the game is the same category as Space Harrier.

First, the differences w/ FZ and Defender: (A) Tempest et al only offers one degree of movement, while the other games offer two. (Note that I'm not saying this is the reason why the game isn't categorized as a shmup -- we're allowing Space Invaders, after all.) (B) FZ and D present the game as if it were a plane (even though it wraps around) -- and based on the countless discussions held on this forum on this topic over the years, I'd say you'll find as many people who say the perspective on Tempest-like games is so out-of-the-ordinary that it changes the game as you will people who claim that only the geometry matters. I assume you disagree, and that's fine, but I'm telling you what I've concluded based on the myriad discussions we've had about this. Can I verify or prove that opinion? no. And as I said, I'm sure you'll find many to agree with you.

Second (and the reason why none of that presently matters), the admin team has decreed multiple times that Tempest et al are not shmups, and -- unless and until they change their minds -- I'm going to respect that decision. (For what it's worth, they have been debating the Tempest-like issue in recent weeks, so it is possible there will be a change of stance before voting concludes. I wouldn't delay your vote based on that, however -- we can fix it later if it becomes a reality.)

Turrican: I think however that Gyruss/Tempest should be considered the last evolution of the shmup concept. [...] Since these games just swich perspective (like Xevious' perspective differs than Gradius) and do not break any geometry rule (unlike Space Harrier and the likes), they should still be in.

nullstar: For clarity's sake, let's agree the only thing we disagree on here is the perspective as the sole factor that's keeping Tempest and its ilk in the OT forum. My assertion (see my post in the Top 25 thread if you're unsure where this came from) is that a significant number of people over the years (perhaps a majority) who agrue all 2D, 3rd person shooters are shmups find a hiccup in that philosophy when considering stuff like Gyruss and Tempest. To be clear: we aren't debating whether Tempest is "shooty" enough or not -- and we agree it's a 2D game (unlike Space Harrier and Rez and all that newfangled 3D gameplay). The question is: does the perspective of Tempest and games like it change the game in such a way that people think of it as it's own category of shooter, one separate from their notion of "shmup."

I will remind people that stuff like Space Invaders and Galaga (what I like to call "proto-shmups") are considered on-topic because they are (A) clearly the predecessor to stuff like Xevious and (B) basically identical other than only allowing one axis of player movement. Tube shooters never took this leap into 2D movement, so can quite legitimately be seen as a sibling genre to shmups...assuming, that is, that you think a shmup requires two axes of movement (hence the "proto" in the single-axis-of-movement proto-shmup genre). There is a lot of debate over this issue, too, so it would probably be unhelpful to try and address that issue in this thread, too. (Unless it would affect someone's opinion on the matter at hand.) I'm not trying to confuse the issue -- but I think Turrican would agree that's the background on this debate.

Bydobasher: I think tube shmups should be included. The perspective is nothing more than Space Invaders rolled into a cylinder, which means that the gameplay remains largely unchanged -- you move left and right along a line (which happens to be circular instead of straight) and shoot anything that moves. If we include Space Invaders and Galaga -- and we certainly should, in my opinion -- then I really don't understand how we can't include Tempest and Gyruss. They may look different, but they play the same.

raiden: Still, I see the problem of possible escalation as something very real. There has to be a line drawn somewhere, a very clear line. And I think most people here will agree that 3d gameplay is not our focus of interest in this board, so for practical reasons, it still makes sense to leave Tempest out, just to make sure. Because Tempest will lead to Space Harrier, Space Harrier will lead to Panzer Dragoon, and Panzer Dragoon will lead to Quake.
Let´s try another perspective: has Tempest been important for the evolution of the genre? I think it´s safe to answer that with a "No". There were a few offsprings, some games inspired by Tempest, but it hasn´t really created a subgenre of its own. It´s basically a dead branch, compared to other branches (the "scrolling" ones, for instance). So it doesn´t really need to be in this vote.

read the rest here: http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?t=587


At the very end of the thread, Cmoon quotes this one:

"A 2D game with forced scrolling where a player controls a small ship/character with complete freedom along an x-y plane. The goal of said game is to shoot incoming enemies while dodging their fire."

Although as we've seen, the inclusion of proto-shmups made forced scrolling obsolete, and the "complete freedom" bit too...

[j^aws]

Also can you point me to this "geometrical definition" you speak of? I'd like to read what's already been 'agreed'.

I'm sorry, the best I could do was to recompile here some of nullstar more recent posts on the subject:
...

Thanks for this.

I do share some of Nullstars feelings. Namely, setting a precedent for allowing something 'new', which leads to something like Panzer Dragoon to be 'technically' eligible. But that's a fear, more to do with lack of CLEAR definition and applying that for qualification/ disqualification. Also, there wouldn't be a need for a 'band aid' defining "Proto-shmups".

I said I would elaborate further on Zaxxon and Xevious but I'm not sure if this is the right thread to continue? If Zaxxon isn't eligible currently, then I can make a case for it...

[roker]

what do you guys think of my list:

Code: Select all

[1000][Battle Garegga]
[900][ESPGaluda]
[900][Armed Police Batrider]
[850][Lords of Thunder]
[700][Ikaruga]
[700][Ibara]
[600][Viper Phase 1]
[600][Border Down]
[600][Under Defeat]
[500][Einhander]
[400][Gradius Gaiden]
[400][R-Type Final]
[400][Zero Gunner 2]
[350][Sexy Parodius]
[300][Zanac Neo]
[300][Strikers 1945 II]
[250][Tempest 2000 (Jaguar)]
[200][R-Type Delta]
[150][ESPRa.De.]
[100][Dangun Feveron]
[100][Dimahoo]
[50][Raiden II]
[50][R-Type II]
[25][R-Type III]
[25][Viewpoint]

Can we get some Viper Phase love or what?

excellent game.

[Gorecki]

what do you guys think of my list:

Code: Select all

[1000][Battle Garegga]
[900][ESPGaluda]
[900][Armed Police Batrider]
[850][Lords of Thunder]
[700][Ikaruga]
[700][Ibara]
[600][Viper Phase 1]
[600][Border Down]
[600][Under Defeat]
[500][Einhander]
[400][Gradius Gaiden]
[400][R-Type Final]
[400][Zero Gunner 2]
[350][Sexy Parodius]
[300][Zanac Neo]
[300][Strikers 1945 II]
[250][Tempest 2000 (Jaguar)]
[200][R-Type Delta]
[150][ESPRa.De.]
[100][Dangun Feveron]
[100][Dimahoo]
[50][Raiden II]
[50][R-Type II]
[25][R-Type III]
[25][Viewpoint]

Can we get some Viper Phase love or what?

excellent game.

You've made a typo. You've put R-Type Final above Delta.

[roker]

what do you guys think of my list:

Code: Select all

[1000][Battle Garegga]
[900][ESPGaluda]
[900][Armed Police Batrider]
[850][Lords of Thunder]
[700][Ikaruga]
[700][Ibara]
[600][Viper Phase 1]
[600][Border Down]
[600][Under Defeat]
[500][Einhander]
[400][Gradius Gaiden]
[400][R-Type Final]
[400][Zero Gunner 2]
[350][Sexy Parodius]
[300][Zanac Neo]
[300][Strikers 1945 II]
[250][Tempest 2000 (Jaguar)]
[200][R-Type Delta]
[150][ESPRa.De.]
[100][Dangun Feveron]
[100][Dimahoo]
[50][Raiden II]
[50][R-Type II]
[25][R-Type III]
[25][Viewpoint]

Can we get some Viper Phase love or what?

excellent game.

You've made a typo. You've put R-Type Final above Delta.

I played Final more this year

I'm a sucker sometimes for nice graphics and atmosphere

I also like the whole "collect'em all" ship unlocking

[Rob]

what do you guys think of my list:

DIVIDE ALL POINT VALUES BY 25 AND RESUBMIT.

Not really, but I'm kind of confused why people do that.

[j^aws]

Can I ask whether a mouse or trackball used to target a projectile is permitted in a shmup?

Edit:

...with a cross-hair?

[Dandy J]

what do you guys think of my list:

DIVIDE ALL POINT VALUES BY 25 AND RESUBMIT.

Not really, but I'm kind of confused why people do that.

i like zeroes