All the crappy PS2 shooters (or we hate R-Type Final thread)

Neon · Post by **Neon** » Tue Oct 10, 2006 3:22 pm

No.. but it has collapsed into a stale-mate.

The trolling has the same end result as the intelligent discussion, only it's shorter.

Efficiency FTW

Turrican · Post by **Turrican** » Tue Oct 10, 2006 3:36 pm

Kiken wrote:
Turrican wrote: It's depressing when intelligent discussion over a game is no more distinguishable from trolling. I don't think everything Twiddle, Shocky, Icarus, Strider77, bVork and myself wrote so far is a load of bullshit only worth for a laugh.
No.. but it has collapsed into a stale-mate. And Turrican, even you have to admit that the general consensus on Shmups has been that R-Type Final was a disappointment.

Just 'cause I played the part of the defense, it doesn't mean I am a blind idealistic. I've never claimed Final to be the crowning jewel in the series. But there's a difference between a disappointment and a bad game. Also, have a look for yourself:

In the 4th annual poll, only 3 irem games reached the top25+honorable mentions list. R-Type and Delta in the 25, Final in the mentions. So all this bitter disappointment on this thread must be overreaction to my words, I guess.

Of course, due to the respect to the alpha-male theory most seem to pay here, in the 5th annual poll I assume Final will fare much worse. Yeah, it was better to keep my mouth shut.

Twiddle · Post by **Twiddle** » Tue Oct 10, 2006 6:27 pm

honorable mentions includes *everything* that recieved a vote

wiNteR · Post by **wiNteR** » Tue Oct 10, 2006 7:55 pm

I have about 15 hours of gameplay time in R-Type Final. I have two major issues with the game:
1) excessive slowdown after the 1st stage
2) too many sections where the player is doing nothing ... and since the pace of this game is very slow this problem gets worse

I thought the graphics for this game were excellent (probably one of the best for any ps2 game) but the slowdown ruined the whole experience :\

Turrican · Post by **Turrican** » Tue Oct 10, 2006 8:26 pm

Twiddle wrote:honorable mentions includes *everything* that recieved a vote

Huh, no. Zach, tell him.

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?t=8662

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Tue Oct 10, 2006 8:29 pm

I can't believe RTF got on honorable mentions.

Turrican · Post by **Turrican** » Tue Oct 10, 2006 8:33 pm

Rob wrote:I can't believe RTF got on honorable mentions.

Don't worry - it won't happen again, probably.

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Tue Oct 10, 2006 8:40 pm

That's a relief. Now let's get Mushihimesama off the top 25.

Gungriffon Geona · Post by **Gungriffon Geona** » Tue Oct 10, 2006 8:40 pm

Ya know... this probably sounds like a dumb idea, but if there were 15 of the ships in RFinal that you could choose as best, what would they be? I ask because I've become a little inspired from this whole argument. I need more crap to model anyway.

(Hyllos is already on my list, but shame there aren't many screenshots of it's fighter mode.)

EDIT: I played Battle Garegga... I officially think it's really crappy. Bakraid is much more enjoyable than it is.

howmuchkeefe · Post by **howmuchkeefe** » Tue Oct 10, 2006 11:08 pm

I recognize the weaknesses of RTF, but I'm not quite sure why Mushihimesama sucks. I like it: Normal reminds me of Psikyo, while Maniac and Ultra remind me of ZUN at 72RPM and with far far fewer extends. What's wrong with it? The scoring system?

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 12:23 am

howmuchkeefe wrote:I recognize the weaknesses of RTF, but I'm not quite sure why Mushihimesama sucks. I like it: Normal reminds me of Psikyo, while Maniac and Ultra remind me of ZUN at 72RPM and with far far fewer extends. What's wrong with it? The scoring system?

It's not bad, it's just not an exceptional example of the genre or what Cave can do, aside from some pretty graphics.

The multi-mode aspect has already been argued to death, so I won't bother with that.

howmuchkeefe · Post by **howmuchkeefe** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 1:09 am

Generic Cave

Contents: Fantasy shooting game, fan service (may contain one of the following: nudity, nopan, underwear, homosexuality), high fructose corn syrup, game modes, lecithin, red #5, level design.

May contain peanuts.

Post by **Icarus** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 1:11 am

Free mahjong game with every purchase.

mulletgeezer · Post by **mulletgeezer** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 3:03 pm

R-type Final isn't about shitness, it's about emergence.

Did anybody read that article Edge magazine wrote about the game? Amazingly awful writing, beaten only by the horrendous article they wrote about RSG where they claimed the game was responsible for almost every shmup innovation ever and every other example of the genre is a piece of shit. It's an incredible mag.

Dandy J · Post by **Dandy J** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 5:17 pm

howmuchkeefe wrote:I recognize the weaknesses of RTF, but I'm not quite sure why Mushihimesama sucks. I like it: Normal reminds me of Psikyo, while Maniac and Ultra remind me of ZUN at 72RPM and with far far fewer extends. What's wrong with it? The scoring system?

Some people disliked it because of the scoring system; speaking for myself, I would've learned/exploited the scoring system to the best of my ability had I actually enjoyed the rest of the game.

My problems with it were:

1) Generic and boring bullet patterns. Every pettern in Mushi is either a) a spiral, b) a really generic curtain fire pattern that gets bigger with each wave, or c) some gimmick that would've been cool if they had used it in a creative way (Ketsui), but instead they use it in the most generic way possible (example: stage 1 boss, final pattern). Or of course d) a combination of these things.

2) The player sprite is drawn asymmetrically. I have never seen anyone complain about this but myself and I always bitch about it in IRC. Basically Reko/other bitch sit on the bug sideways, so their cape is kinda of at a 45 degree angle. My eye assumes that the hitbox is on the line of the cape, but if you are moving, the cape moves around. The hitbox is still in the very center of the two markers on both sides, and there is an indicator when holding the shot button, but it doesn't help me. The hitbox is always slightly to the left/right of where I expect it to be. Then of course it drastically throws me off in other games if I play for any extended amount of time.

3) And yes the scoring system is pretty lame and unmotivating. But like I said I'd tolerate it if I liked the rest of the game, but I don't and the scoring system doesn't help.

howmuchkeefe wrote:Normal reminds me of Psikyo

I thought I was going to like original but 99% of the bullet patterns are still the lame-ass ones that they are in manic, just faster and with less density. Dangun did Psikyo 10x better, and better than Psikyo ever did Psikyo I might add (BRING THE FLAMES).

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 6:31 pm

Dandy J wrote: Dangun did Psikyo .. better than Psikyo ever did Psikyo I might add (BRING THE FLAMES).

Why you.

mulletgeezer · Post by **mulletgeezer** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 6:53 pm

Rob wrote:
Dandy J wrote: Dangun did Psikyo .. better than Psikyo ever did Psikyo I might add (BRING THE FLAMES).
Why you.

I completely agree, DF has massive style and humour and superfast twitch gameplay and a savage intensity that outdoes every psikyo game by miles. Psikyo were getting better towards the end of their lifetime as a jamma game developer but they never would have matched DF, they just didn't have the talent or the taste. Then again Cave as they are today don't seem to quite have it either.

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 6:58 pm

What Psikyo is best at is brutalizing the player and DF doesn't even have a loop. Instant disqualification.

Post by **Icarus** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 7:02 pm

Rob wrote:What Psikyo is best at is brutalizing the player and DF doesn't even have a loop. Instant disqualification.

You don't need a loop to brutalise a player.
Try no-missing Feveron without dropping a single DM, then come back and let me know if you find it easier than 1-ALLing a Psikyo game.

mulletgeezer wrote:Then again Cave as they are today don't seem to quite have it either.

Cave haven't been the same since Progear.
Older Cave was far more experimental, more creative, more stylish.
I still think Cave's best game in terms of style, gameplay and design is Guwange.

Strider77 · Post by **Strider77** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 7:03 pm

Congratulations for completely missing the point.

Thanks, I try.... I really do.

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 7:19 pm

Icarus wrote: Try no-missing Feveron without dropping a single DM, then come back and let me know if you find it easier than 1-ALLing a Psikyo game.

Gimme a break. Let's not forget Psikyo games also have scoring elements. I think I could get through DF without a DM miss before mastering 2-5 in GB2. Just 2-5.

Post by **Icarus** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 7:22 pm

Har, good luck then.
Let me know when you beat Venom's Feveron record. ^_-

(And master Psikyo?? Are you out of your mind? There are better things to do and play. ^_-)

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 7:28 pm

I wouldn't attempt either of those things. I have barely touched Mars Matrix elite mode b. Priorities.

Post by **Icarus** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 7:30 pm

Good man.
Stay away from Psikyo. That shit can make you infertile. ^_-

mulletgeezer · Post by **mulletgeezer** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 7:54 pm

Icarus wrote:
Rob wrote:
mulletgeezer wrote:Then again Cave as they are today don't seem to quite have it either.
Cave haven't been the same since Progear.
Older Cave was far more experimental, more creative, more stylish.
I still think Cave's best game in terms of style, gameplay and design is Guwange.

I completely agree, their games since Progear have still been fun and had a few ideas but that spark of creative genius has gone. I wonder what might have happened? Maybe they lost a key member of staff at that time?

Anyway, well said. You're a fine example of what a young man can make of himself if he stays off the Psikyo

Post by **Icarus** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 8:07 pm

mulletgeezer wrote:I completely agree, their games since Progear have still been fun and had a few ideas but that spark of creative genius has gone. I wonder what might have happened? Maybe they lost a key member of staff at that time?

Yeah, I think one of their chief artists/designers, Joker Jun, left after Progear. He worked on Esprade, Guwange, Progear, and before that, was part of Toaplan for Batsugun.

(Anyone care to correct me? Not sure if thats the right info).

Guwange will always remain their best game in terms of graphical and system design. Games after Progear are still very nice, but they just seem so... generic... now.

zaphod · Post by **zaphod** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 8:19 pm

R-typy fina has one echnical flaw. major slowdown, well beyond what most poeple expect. it's ahrd to say is theis was intentional or not. but it does seem a little ridiculous.

I suspect I owuld fidn GIgawing Generations completely unplayable at 30fps.shmups realyl do need a muhc higher framerate for precision. Of course fomrom wha tI remember the arcade itself has been known oto frameskip?!?! and that's bad too. i'd rather have slowdown in a shmup then frameskipping.

Gorecki · Post by **Gorecki** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 9:22 pm

I would like to raise my Roman thumb for R-Type Final... it is unbalanced, doesn't take advantage of the scenery-as-threat potential that hori's have (too many of Final's levels are basically just flying through open space), and the level 4 boss IS A RIGHT C**T. But the art design and opressive atmospherics are done so well that I can't help but love it. Yes, I also like Shadow of the Collossus.

My vote for the worst PS2 shmup is the port of Strikers 1 and 2. 50hz only. Yoko mode squashed into such a bizarre ratio that even level 2 boss patterns become nigh on impossible to dodge. Shoddily mixed sound effects that differ wildly in volume. No saving high scores.

I felt ripped off after buying that port, and it only cost me £5.

Also, Shienryu Explosion. I completed it on my first go, and I'm the kind of player who doesn't understand how anyone can beat level 3 of G-Darius. I suck, and yet I could complete that game blindfolded.

Twiddle · Post by **Twiddle** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 9:24 pm

Icarus wrote:
mulletgeezer wrote:I completely agree, their games since Progear have still been fun and had a few ideas but that spark of creative genius has gone. I wonder what might have happened? Maybe they lost a key member of staff at that time?
Yeah, I think one of their chief artists/designers, Joker Jun, left after Progear. He worked on Esprade, Guwange, Progear, and before that, was part of Toaplan for Batsugun.

(Anyone care to correct me? Not sure if thats the right info).

Left after DDP:DOJ to work on his ongoing manga.

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 9:48 pm

Icarus wrote:Good man.
Stay away from Psikyo. That shit can make you infertile. ^_-

Someone's bitter about Psikyo for some reason.

Oh I know! hehe

Marking Progear as the end of their peak is more than a little odd (Cave says "failed experiment," and I agree with them). DOJ, their basic formula perfected enough to where it's enjoyable to ignore the bad scoring system. Ketsui. I've never played it, but helicopters - for that alone it's better than Progear.