Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread

[cave hermit]

What determines what the announcer in Armed Police Batrider yells when you complete a stage (CEWL! MAHVALOSS! etc.)?
It seems like some sort of skill grade...

[Aquas]

It seems like the messages should indicate something, and I asked this before. The consensus was that they are pointless. However, you do hear a "Marvelous" when you trigger an optional boss condition, of course.

If it was a grade, I would guess it's based on a percentage of bombed targets or targets destroyed for optimal point values !?

[Guardians Knight]

anyone know of any differences between the asian and western release of sengoku aces/samurai aces on ps2 in terms of gameplay? All i can see is a huge price difference and the box artwork/name.

Ta

[BIL]

Not sure if there are any regional gameplay alterations (based on JP vs World ROMsets, etc). But a big difference is that the NTSCJ version (Psikyo Shooting Collection Vol.2: Sengoku Ace & Sengoku Blade) includes its sequel Blade on the same disc, as the title suggests. The PAL release splits the games onto separately retailing discs. Same thing occurred with the Japanese PSC Vol.3: Sol Divide & Dragon Blaze.

[Flopjack]

Hey everyone. I've played a fair amount of Shmups, but I still consider myself a newbie when it comes to design for them. I'd like to ask a few experts like yourselves a few questions:

- Is the genre about dodging patterns?
- (Dev question) If your ship has HP (or 1 hit death in some instances here), what visual logic do you use to indicate enemy projectile speed, damage, or other properties? (assume you can only use abstracted shapes, no missiles)
- Other comments on enemy projectiles and patterns in these types of games?
- What's the history behind the "egg shell", or so I call it. They look like little ellipsoids that spin and are usually destructible.

Thanks.

[spadgy]

I've oved the immediately above into the 'Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread' thread here ,as I think it's better suited for here than sitting on its own.

[nasty_wolverine]

I've oved the immediately above into the 'Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread' thread here ,as I think it's better suited for here than sitting on its own.

Deserves to be on the dev subforum.

- Is the genre about dodging patterns?

no, its about shooting, and dodging, and scoring. AND SAVING THE UNIVERSE (or whatever ingame plot needs to be saved).
But, on a metaphorical level, its about starting out as a underdog (an underpowered ship), with no hope to win, then collecting power ups and watching your ship become more powerful, facing ever more powerful foes, and defeating them till you see the end game screen. Its like climbing a mountain, its hard, its punishing, but when you reach the top, its a feeling like no other.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AHhkq7p3Qw

- (Dev question) If your ship has HP (or 1 hit death in some instances here), what visual logic do you use to indicate enemy projectile speed, damage, or other properties? (assume you can only use abstracted shapes, no missiles)

Your ship dies with one hit. so no need to indicate damage level. But usually bullet hitbox is smaller then the sprite. Bullets are usually brightly colored and heavily contrasted with the background so they are always easy to see (thats why fluorescent pink and blues are good colors). Patterns need to be sensible, in a way that you can always dodge them when you have learnt the pattern.

- Other comments on enemy projectiles and patterns in these types of games?

This goes into visual design. enemy projectiles should always look highly contrasted so players figure out not to get too close to them. and patterns should be interesting to dodge, so player has to constantly move (even if lightly tapping) through it.

- What's the history behind the "egg shell", or so I call it. They look like little ellipsoids that spin and are usually destructible.

probably zanac

[trap15]

In Zanac they don't spin, but that's probably where the shape came from. I believe the first game with spinning egg shells would be Video System's 1992 hit "Aero Fighters". I thought they were first in Turbo Force, Video System's previous STG, but I can't seem to see any in it.

- Is the genre about dodging patterns?

Absolutely not, and I think a lot of people don't think about this. The joy of shooting games is shooting, not dodging. Dodging can be intense, but it's boring if nothing else is happening.

- (Dev question) If your ship has HP (or 1 hit death in some instances here), what visual logic do you use to indicate enemy projectile speed, damage, or other properties? (assume you can only use abstracted shapes, no missiles)

Do not use HP. Ever.

- Other comments on enemy projectiles and patterns in these types of games?

Don't use too many bullets. When you make things happen, think about what their purpose is. I think good use of less bullets is more satisfying than more bullets.

I've oved the immediately above into the 'Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread' thread here ,as I think it's better suited for here than sitting on its own.

Deserves to be on the dev subforum.

Agreed.

[Blinge]

Flopjack if you're looking to design a shmup without already knowing the answers to those questions I think you need to play shooters a hell of a lot more; instead of cherrypicking design aspects you like from a handful of possibly conflicting forum responses. Currently you run the risk of developing something that misunderstands the genre entirely.

There's been a few attempts by competent/high budget developers who come in thinking they're going to "revolutionize" a backwards genre or take this relic of the arcade days and "push it further" and end up making shit games. Sine Mora comes to mind..
I'd suggest lurking the development forum too.

[Drake]

- Is the genre about dodging patterns?

Absolutely, and I think a lot of people end up realizing this. The joy of shooting games is dodging, not shooting. Shooting can be intense, but it's boring if nothing else is happening.

[Patashu]

It's not just about the dodging - the movement of your ship across the screen 'herds' bullets and 'lures' fire. It's very much a two player dance, not just you reacting to what's going on.

[Squire Grooktook]

As you can probably tell from Trap and Drakes answers, it heavily depends both on who you ask, and the particular game in question. Personally I prefer dodging is the most fun part of the genre, but shooting and aggression is also a vital part.

[remedial_gash]

I think good use of less bullets is more satisfying than more bullets.

'FEWER'

[BIL]

In addition to well-aimed bullets I like flamethrowers, lasers, missiles, grenades, mines, beamswords, knives, panties and so forth. IDGAF about angry wine gums.

[Blinge]

I think good use of less bullets is more satisfying than more bullets.

'FEWER'

lmfao. #GETREKT #REKT #WHEREYOUAT
3rd post, too!!

..sorry Trap.

[nasty_wolverine]

In addition to well-aimed bullets I like flamethrowers, lasers, missiles, grenades, mines, beamswords, knives, panties and so forth. IDGAF about angry wine gums.

Akai Katana has you covered. except flamethrowers i guess

[mastermx]

Hey everyone. I've played a fair amount of Shmups, but I still consider myself a newbie when it comes to design for them. I'd like to ask a few experts like yourselves a few questions:

- Is the genre about dodging patterns?
- (Dev question) If your ship has HP (or 1 hit death in some instances here), what visual logic do you use to indicate enemy projectile speed, damage, or other properties? (assume you can only use abstracted shapes, no missiles)
- Other comments on enemy projectiles and patterns in these types of games?
- What's the history behind the "egg shell", or so I call it. They look like little ellipsoids that spin and are usually destructible.

Thanks.

To really understand the shmupping genre, you need to be a masochist, dedicate a shrine to yagawa, and watch touhou hentai.

[nasty_wolverine]

To really understand the shmupping genre, you need to be a masochist, dedicate a shrine to yagawa, and watch touhou hentai.

and thats how you scare noobs away.

[Lilium]

Yeah honestly... if my family or friends saw me have a Yagawa shrine they'd cut ties on the spot.

[cave hermit]

The only family member you need is Yagawa. We are all His children, and He loves us all.

The Yagawa shrine is the only medium through which one can make contact with Him. Once you have created one, you may perform the following ritual:

To perform this ritual you will need
-A PCB for a Yagawa programmed game
-An effigy of Yagawa; polished wood will do, but using valuable metals/gems instead will help you earn His favor during rituals.
-a bottle of hard liquor
-two pachinko balls
-a newborn lamb
-a candy cab

At your shrine set up your candy cab and plug in your PCB. Play a credit and 1CC it. Then immediately after entering your initials, unplug the candy cab and punch a hole through the monitor bare-fisted. Then put the lamb down on the control panel. Slit the lamb's throat and pour the blood into the broken monitor. Then shove the pachinko balls in its eye sockets. Place the Yagawa effigy in its throat where you slit it, and then shove as much of the lamb as you can into the broken monitor. Finally pour the bottle of liquor over the part of the lamb sticking out of the monitor. Once you have performed this final step close your eyes and chant prayers to Yagawa for 30 seconds. Once you open your eyes Yagawa will be there in front of you eating the lamb. Watch calmly and say nothing. Once He is done He will ask you to please him. Sexually. Once you comply he will bless you with low life rank for the next month.

[LordHypnos]

Hey everyone. I've played a fair amount of Shmups, but I still consider myself a newbie when it comes to design for them. I'd like to ask a few experts like yourselves a few questions:

- Is the genre about dodging patterns?
- (Dev question) If your ship has HP (or 1 hit death in some instances here), what visual logic do you use to indicate enemy projectile speed, damage, or other properties? (assume you can only use abstracted shapes, no missiles)
- Other comments on enemy projectiles and patterns in these types of games?
- What's the history behind the "egg shell", or so I call it. They look like little ellipsoids that spin and are usually destructible.

Thanks.

Never forget the sage advice!

These are "bullet dodging" games, but you should avoid dodging as much as you can. In short, you shouldn't be trying to pass through the space between the bullets, but rather going around them and avoiding them entirely.

I would definitely say that a lot of the appeal of shmups is in weaving around bullets rather than just dodging them, and finding routes through the stages. Also, collecting shinies. Do not discount the shinies.

Also, I don't personally think powerups are all that important. It's still probably worth it to include them, because a lot of people do like them, but I think that a lot of time, power downs really get in the way of enjoyment. As a response to this, many developers have made power differences trivial, or power ups easily regainable after losing them, or made it so the ship retains its power level after being destroyed (In this case power ups usually add to an "experience" stat that never goes down). Basically the less you can make power ups matter, the better.

I don't think you were asking about this as such, but I agree with others that usually 1 hit death is the best. If you want to make it more forgiving, then add a shield as an item / lay it on heavy with the extends and bombs. If you absolutely must have a lifebar, make sure that there aren't also extra lives, and don't make healing items too frequent or powerful. The issue is that it's really easy to not really notice how much you're getting hit with a lifebar, and that will make you play sloppily, and make the experience much less enjoyable. Make sure that getting hit gives some amount of very clear feedback, as well. On a related note, ideally these games should be technically clearable without any hits, but not easily clearable with no hits. That's an important thing to remember.

As for bullets, make sure they're easy to see. Nothing is worse than dying and not knowing what the fuck killed you. CAVE does this by making giant ass bullets, and then still fits a lot of bullets onscreen by making the hitboxes of the bullets tiny. While I'm a big fan of those chunky bullets, I'd greatly prefer fewer bullets onscreen, over the tiny hitboxes (I find that this makes the games harder in a way that isn't particularly fun, even though it's kind of making them easier in a sense. I hardly think I'm in the majority in feeling this way though, so take with a grain of salt. I still need non-pixel-perfect playership hitbox though. Like others have said, think of what you're trying to accomplish with any given bullet pattern

Don't know anything about the eggshell...

Also note that I'm not a terribly experienced player, but this is just impressions that I've gotten from the few games that I've played.

LOL at the "Full shmup or GTFO!" comment, btw and also the crazy Yagawa cult

[jepjepjep]

Yagawa worship

Anyone know if Yagawa went to M2?

On Topic:
Why did they make the Type B ship in original Daioujou so shitty?

[Squire Grooktook]

While I'm a big fan of those chunky bullets,

When I make a shmup, all the small bullets will be medium, all the medium will be large, and all the large will be fucking spirit bombs.

[nosorrow]

In Shikigami No Shiro III (Xbox 360), how can I remap the controls? I saw a screen with "Button" and other options appearing for a fraction of a second when I saved to play TATE, but then I cannot find where that menu is afterwards as it disappears. (Hopefully someone gets what I mean.)

EDIT: Nevermind, got it.

[nosorrow]

.

[LordHypnos]

While I'm a big fan of those chunky bullets,

When I make a shmup, all the small bullets will be medium, all the medium will be large, and all the large will be fucking spirit bombs.

Hahaha, those are pretty awesome. I think Famibe no Yosshin would approve

[Bonus!]

I wanted to try out Touhou, but there seems to be a problem with the keyboard configuration. In Thouhou 6 there are three buttons mentioned in the config screen: slow/shoot/bomb, but the slow button is tied to the shoot button, and there is no way to change it directly. Is there a workaround? Note that I don't want to change the keyboard layout, I only want 'slow' to be assigned to a separate key.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

AutoHotkey is the greatest tool ever for swapping key bindings in games that don't, or poorly support them.

[Immryr]

slow (or rather focus fire) is on the shift key, z is shot and x is bomb. I didn't have any problem changing these for using with my Saturn pad in the options though?

[BulletMagnet]

I seem to recall a "Shot-Slow" option that can be toggled on and off ("off" assigns Slow to a separate button, "on" keeps the Cave-esque "tap to shoot, hold to focus" setup), though I forget if that was present for all of the Windows games or was added partway in.