Why shmups are such a niche genre

[Rastan78]

And let's be honest: many of the games we discuss wouldn't even be remotely cherished if it wasn't for their aesthetic/rarity/developer's reputation. Then we wonder why shmups are so niche.

I think that applies to a certain demographic. Like has Radiant Silvergun on Saturn always been 300 bucks bc of players eager to score attack the game? No. If that were the case then the ports would reduce the value. It's probably the factors you mentioned. People do their research and find out about certain titles' Holy grail status. Maybe it's one of the only shmups in their collection.

You don't really see that within the shmup community too much though. You're either going to mess around and find out what games you really love or bounce off to the next thing.

Also aesthetics and developer reputation aren't such bad metrics. In shmups a good reputation is almost always well deserved. For a new player if you look at the top devs. Maybe Raizing, Psikyo, Cave, Seibu, Konami, Irem, Taito, Toaplan etc. Then you look at those games and start trying things that look really cool to you. It's probably going to be great.

If you pick up Ikaruga or Battle Garegga bc the internet told you this is what you should buy, then it's more likely to not be fun.

[Sima Tuna]

This forum is about shmups in general but the userbase clearly has preferences for specific developers or eras. This is not a bad thing per se but it makes the scene more niche if let's say you just discovered an euroshmup you really enjoy and want to discuss the genre after googling "shmup forum" to find fellow fans.

We have fans of all sorts of games around here. Make an appreciation thread and someone will probably engage. Euros aren't my thing personally, but I love Raptor and Tyrian.

We also have what might be the most active english-language forum for some other niche genres, too. The Other Gaming section is more robust than you might think!

This. Perhaps explore the Other Gaming section of the forum and you'll find we're not arcade puritans who hate new games? I dunno. It's also... Remotely possible (and this is a verrrrry tiny possibility) that I was being somewhat comedic in tone (which nobody should ever do online) when I used the term "normie" to describe a normal person who plays mainstream AAA vidya gaems.

The thread title is why shmups are a niche genre and how to change that. I think it's important to understand what those filthy normie scum like about mainstream games and how shmups could modify very tiny things (that don't change the fundamental arcade game design) to appeal to a wider market. I really think routes and roguelike modes are an example of arcade games branching out and finding success in the mainstream. I don't play that Mr. X survival roguelike nightmare thingy in Streets of Rage 4. But I know there are people out there who love it.

Go to any mainstream video game community and you'll find "value for money" in terms of hours touted as a major purchasing incentive for or against games. It's part of the broken "how long to beat" "I need to get my money's worth" games market mindset. But people do think that way. If you want to sell a new arcade game to the mainstream, you have to think about what you can add to get those people saying, "okay okay, that actually does sound like fair value for money." Extra modes, extra characters... Whatever you can do without fundamentally changing your BITCHIN' SICK arcade gameplay.

Once those people get hooked on the arcade crack, they will change their mentality and realize you can play a 30-minute game for 50 hours if it's fun enough.

[Air Master Burst]

I would also point to the culture around trophies/achievements as another thing working against hardcore arcade action games (especially shmups) breaking into the mainstream. Most shmups have at least a few trophies that are pretty much impossible without a fairly large commitment (usually the harder score trophies and almost always a 1CC), and sadly that puts off way more gamers than I wish it did.

ETA: Also, I notice that when mainstream games add more hardcore arcade style modes, those trophies almost always have the lowest completion %.

[Steven]

I don't think it's a problem if these games aren't mainstream. Imagine what would happen if some big company like Activision or EA started making them: games launch broken, infested with some shitty harmful DRM like Denuvo, with 70% of the game as (expensive) DLC that you have to buy separately on launch day, microtransactions, as a live service thing (R-Type Final 2 is basically already this, but at least Kujo and Granzella know how to do the genre properly), and all sorts of other unpleasant aspects, and then once it fails they stop support and leave it as a broken, glitchy mess while they plan Call of Duty 9001, 9002, and 9003, where they will do the same stuff but get away with all of it. No thanks, do not want.

That said, I must say I am surprised and pleased that Cotton and Toaplan, both long dead, have suddenly and miraculously come back to life recently. I do constantly worry about Embracer acquiring Tatsujin and if Tatsujin will have to die because of Embracer, but I doubt there will be another STG renaissance like the one that is happening now, and if there is I doubt it will be bigger than this one.

[cfx]

.

[Steven]

I have heard that trophies are also required by Sony. Not sure about Xbox, but while they are optional on PC games, you can go to the Steam forum page of any game that doesn't have achievements and you'll see people asking for them or complaining about their absence. I just checked Andro Dunos II's Steam forum and sure enough the first topic is this. Apparently there are people that refuse to buy games that don't have achievements/trophies for whatever reason.

I suppose they could make trophies that encourage high-level play, though I don't know how effective that would be. For example, Treasure loves rereleasing Ikaruga, right? Next time they do it they can put one in that requires you to fully chain the game on at least normal difficulty. R-Type Final 2 has one that requires you to no miss on R-Typer or higher.

[Sumez]

I think that applies to a certain demographic. Like has Radiant Silvergun on Saturn always been 300 bucks bc of players eager to score attack the game? No. If that were the case then the ports would reduce the value. It's probably the factors you mentioned. People do their research and find out about certain titles' Holy grail status. Maybe it's one of the only shmups in their collection.

RSG was probably *the* biggest grail on Saturn before the X360 port came out. I'm not sure it dropped in value after that, but it definitely stagnated - and at this point, given how crazy Saturn prices have gotten alongside everything else, I'm not sure it even touches the top 20 in terms of collector items on Saturn.

[Steven]

It's not that expensive at all. I paid 11000 yen for mine (no obi) a few years ago and I don't think it's changed that much. Thunder Force V limited edition and Dracula X are about the same price, Out Run is getting there, and Hyper Duel, Guardian Force, Cotton Boomerang, and possibly Cotton 2 are more expensive. If you want one that has the obi you're definitely going to pay a lot more, but you can get a no-obi copy for a mostly okay price.

[Bassa-Bassa]

I think Taroumaru surpassed RSG so long ago that we can't even recall when it was. And there's the Delivery Soba thing, which has always been the holy grail in Japan.

But yeah, I believe 360 RSG made the SAT version stagnate at least. I don't think it's a good example as few would argue it's not a high quality game, whether they like it or not. And the home versions optionally made the score-based mechanics irrelevant and introduced some cinematics to give the storytelling some weight, for those people not caring about arcade philosophy in their games.

Perhaps explore the Other Gaming section of the forum and you'll find we're not arcade puritans who hate new games?

What if we are, though?

[Air Master Burst]

What if we are, though?

No need to front, even BIL has spent the last 6 months mainlining Souls games like a filthy casual.

[Steven]

But yeah, I believe 360 RSG made the SAT version stagnate at least. I don't think it's a good example as few would argue it's not a high quality game, whether they like it or not. And the home versions optionally made the score-based mechanics irrelevant and introduced some cinematics to give the storytelling some weight, for those people not caring about arcade philosophy in their games.

Saturn mode also made the game a miserable hour-long slog, too! I guess overstaying its welcome is something it has something in common with those generic open world fetch quest games that some people somehow enjoy.

[Rastan78]

RSG has got to still be one of the most expensive shmups on Saturn. But sure switch the example to Hyper Duel since it happens to be more expensive now and less "cherished" by active players.

On the flip side of the argument that rarity is one of the only things to drive interest in shmups you've got all the common accessible games people love and play regularly. How much will Gradius III SNES set you back these days?

[neorichieb1971]

Is it the players that dicate the niche status or the developers that make games?

Its obvious to me in this world right now that most things are dictated by technology. Back in the day when shmups were mainstream we got a product we loved because of limitations of technology. If the technology was there to render 5000000 polygons this shmup phase would have been bypassed completely.

Personally, I buy more abstract games than realistic games, haven't bought a current gen console yet and feel the drive is on profits, cinematics, non gameplay visuals, micro transactions and such. But yearn for that pick and play experience that arcades delivered years ago in a AAA package.

I certainly feel that Shmups are held dear to folk that like being interactive with games, rather than watching them. In recent times i've sold off a few games that I spent 1 hour with, that made me watch cinematics for more than half of that play time. I just can't be bothered to play through games that are running a linear course of story narrative lead by cinematics and narration. Put me in the game, give me control, stop interrupting my game.

[Steven]

Is it the players that dicate the niche status or the developers that make games?

It's ultimately the players. The responsibility of a business is to know exactly what goods or services the consumer wants and to provide exactly that in order to provide value to the customers. If the consumers don't want a good or service, companies don't provide it.

[ryu]

Little profit can be expected from a small customer base and honest business, so investors don't favor companies that cater to niche products.

If you want to make a living creating shmups... good luck not going bankrupt!

And if you're a producer at SEGA who desperately wants to put 3 people aside for a retro-style Thunder Force VII, or thrice the number for a low-budget 3D entry, have fun convincing that doing so would result in bigger profit than putting those 3-12 people on another project with a better revenue forecast.

[Steven]

RSG has got to still be one of the most expensive shmups on Saturn. But sure switch the example to Hyper Duel since it happens to be more expensive now and less "cherished" by active players.

It isn't, unless it has the obi. A no-obi copy is one of the cheaper STGs on Saturn. It's not Layer Section/Layer Section 2/Soukyuugurentai cheap, but it's on the cheap side, in the Thunder Force Gold Pack 2~Thunder Force V limited edition~Battle Garegga area, and I think Garegga is slightly more expensive than a no-obi copy. Only when it has the obi is it expensive, and even then Boomerang, Blast Wind, the Image Fight/X Multiply compilation, and several others are at least twice the price of Radiant Silvergun with the obi.

[Lethe]

Trophies

Trophies

Trophies

I've seen a few Deathsmiles trophy hunters only the years who have basically no other genre presence/experience but grind their way to a TLB clear or whatever just because it's a trophy. Makes me wonder how many players are doing similar things in other games, quietly working towards an unremarkable 2-ALL or Ura clear or no-miss, never getting much attention because they don't go looking for it.* In years past, the community meta of the West has been exaggerated stratification - you have a few players who accomplish everything, and then a huge pool of people who never get anything done and treat the former with childlike wonder. Though this has gotten more balanced recently (and so has every part of the scene, such as it is).

* Personal anecdote

A few years back a small group of people had been trying out the speedrun category for Mecha Ritz 1.53. Extruderex had put a not-insignificant amount of effort into it, he had developed proper routes and disciplined play, and had the fastest known time. I think this was in 2021. A year before that, I had momentarily fucked around with the category. Due to misunderstood mechanics (poor communication from the developer), even though my play was shit, my ad-hoc third try had a faster time then than Extruderex's later PB. But nobody noticed because at the time I assumed there had to have been better runs, I only mentioned it in passing, and didn't upload it anywhere. When it was noticed, it was then believed to be the fastest time. In 2022, just prior to the 2.0 release, a third player shows up and beats my PB.

When the 2.0 version comes out, YGP suddenly has a video of a 13:57 run for the 1.53 version, blowing every other run out of the water. It was uploaded in... 2018. None of us ever had the WR. It was in an unlisted video that the player had never bothered to make public, by a player who only seems to interact on Japanese Twitter.

[Air Master Burst]

Makes me wonder how many players are doing similar things in other games, quietly working towards an unremarkable 2-ALL or Ura clear or no-miss, never getting much attention because they don't go looking for it.

This probably gets right to the real issue: this genre inherently appeals to us weirdo introverted obsessives who would rather spend countless hours mastering the same 20 minutes of gameplay than, like, talk to people.

[Skyknight]

Just to note, AAA isn’t a production quality term in origin, but from the insurance industry—it indicates a near-certain return on investment. So quality isn’t represented so much as likely mass appeal.

On the non-shmup side, this helps explain Baldur’s Gate III. Larian is by no means a small company, but they’re not publicly traded. So they certainly had AAA-echelon resources, but without the usual shackling to share-speculators’ demands for tribute.

[Air Master Burst]

Just to note, AAA isn’t a production quality term in origin, but from the insurance industry—it indicates a near-certain return on investment. So quality isn’t represented so much as likely mass appeal.

On the non-shmup side, this helps explain Baldur’s Gate III. Larian is by no means a small company, but they’re not publicly traded. So they certainly had AAA-echelon resources, but without the usual shackling to share-speculators’ demands for tribute.

If Larian had AAA-echelon resources BG3 wouldn't have used that janky ass old Divinity engine.

[cfx]

.

[hamfighterx]

This probably gets right to the real issue: this genre inherently appeals to us weirdo introverted obsessives who would rather spend countless hours mastering the same 20 minutes of gameplay than, like, talk to people.

Eh, it also appeals to weirdo introverted obsessives like me, who would rather spend hours playing 30 minutes each of countless different shooters and never really mastering any of them than talking to people.

[neorichieb1971]

Is it the players that dicate the niche status or the developers that make games?

It's ultimately the players. The responsibility of a business is to know exactly what goods or services the consumer wants and to provide exactly that in order to provide value to the customers. If the consumers don't want a good or service, companies don't provide it.

Well I watched a video from Lady Decade on youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9Cg-EN89Y0

From her standpoint the Playstation showcase was full of Feudal Japan war games, games with micro transactions and argued that the PC version of God of War should not have been included as its a PC game. All of which are NOT what folk are wanting to see.

As with most things in life for me, I found that there was a certain point in life where things peaked. For games it was around the Dreamcast/PS2 era. I don't like online gaming, I don't like digital downloads, I don't like huge amounts of cinematics in games and I can't stand trophies (Especially the trophies that mean doing something oddball). I like pick up and play AAA arcade games that you can master. I'm also pretty poor at double analogue controlled games to the point that when I tried Gears of War on XB360 around 2007-8 I couldn't get through the training mission.

Hence I buy games made before 2010 a lot more than games made after 2010. In the past 10 years, i've bought less than 30 games brand new. I skipped PS5 and XBox series X.

I did recently buy Blissful death DDP on Switch from play-asia. I suppose shmups are more niche now as the hardware to play most of them is older. Remakes/re-releases are common keeping the pulse going.

So yeah, shmups might be niche, but the industry as a whole has lost its way as its stuck somewhere between upping the graphics to AAA standard but churning out same-o same-o all the time, and not wanting to do original or abstract games because they don't sell. So everyone goes off and buys games from the era they did like instead.

[Steven]

I have a bachelor's degree in business, so I know how business works. Random yahoos on Youtube can say whatever they want, but I'm right.

[Sumez]

What a cool guy

[Rastan78]

It isn't, unless it has the obi. A no-obi copy is one of the cheaper STGs on Saturn.

This is just being pedantic to the point of missing the forest for the trees. I was talking about how the shmup community approaches games and brought up RSG as a random example of an expensive game that also has noteworthy aesthetics and dev reputation driving its status over time. Whether there are other games that are even more expensive out of pure rarity or whether it has the missing extra piece of paper isn't really the point.

[Steven]

What a cool guy

He doesn't afraid of anything... except Shitty Connection

It isn't, unless it has the obi. A no-obi copy is one of the cheaper STGs on Saturn.

This is just being pedantic to the point of missing the forest for the trees. I was talking about how the shmup community approaches games and brought up RSG as a random example of an expensive game that also has noteworthy aesthetics and dev reputation driving its status over time. Whether there are other games that are even more expensive out of pure rarity or whether it has the missing extra piece of paper isn't really the point.

Pedantic, perhaps, but correct.

[neorichieb1971]

I have a bachelor's degree in business, so I know how business works. Random yahoos on Youtube can say whatever they want, but I'm right.

Guessing what the customer wants is like turning everything into gold. Its the aim of the game, but not many can do it.

The industry is in a place where the next generation of consoles/PC games are going to look almost exactly the same as whats out now. 20 years ago we could see where gaming is going, but unfortunately it hasn't moved on the PS3 era except in the area of controls and visuals. We have reached a point in tech where because realism is possible, that is the only thing the industry strives for. When everything looks the same, feels the same, plays the same, you have no identity anymore.

What this will create is a dip in, dip out scenario with gamers as the diversity isn't there. I also feel that gaming is no longer easily accessible to people as games are often complex out of the box. Controllers now have 12+ buttons on them which makes it harder than learning how to drive. I think Nintendo do a good job with their kiddy approach but Sony and Xbox sell their consoles GTA types these days.

And then you have Japan, scolded by Sony to some degree, everyone moving to Switch. Thats gotta hurt the industry as a whole when your aiming your game at only the western market on PS5/Xbox.

Once Switch 2 comes out and handheld gaming is knocking on the door step of TV games, I Feel the industry has fulfilled what is possible with todays thinking in development of games.

Does anyone get excited about new releases these days?

[Steven]

I have a bachelor's degree in business, so I know how business works. Random yahoos on Youtube can say whatever they want, but I'm right.

Guessing what the customer wants is like turning everything into gold. Its the aim of the game, but not many can do it.

Indeed, it is difficult. That's why over 90% of all businesses fail and cease to exist within 5 years of their founding. The ones that last longer than that are the outliers.

[m.sniffles.esq]

We have reached a point in tech where because realism is possible, that is the only thing the industry strives for. When everything looks the same, feels the same, plays the same, you have no identity anymore.

That must be why seemingly every other game includes the terms "pixel art" or "hand drawn"* in it's hype copy, as of late.

*this one especially elicits douche chills. "Hand drawn" as opposed to what? Being drawn by a bulldozer?