Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

[Ghegs]

Yeah, you're echoing a lot of my gripes. It finally got a patch recently, which fixed some issues, like jump inputs just not reading when you're firing under certain conditions. You can now mash to speed up the "Continue?" counter. You might be playing the patched version already; the slide input problems still stand, but if you always use diagonals I suppose you'll always get a slide. It could use another 100 low-effort QoL fixes, but at least it's not as bad as it was.

Oh hey, you're right. I hadn't actually played the patched version before, it must've downloaded and installed that without me even noticing. They also jazzed up the main menu a bit, added an option to change the scoring thresholds for extends (still no way to revert to defaults...), and I'm pretty sure they added some sound effects in the game.

[BrianC]

Ralf almost looks like a Simpsons character in that image.

[velo]

Oh hey, you're right. I hadn't actually played the patched version before, it must've downloaded and installed that without me even noticing. They also jazzed up the main menu a bit, added an option to change the scoring thresholds for extends (still no way to revert to defaults...), and I'm pretty sure they added some sound effects in the game.

I don't think v1.0 even had extends. Now all those point pick-ups aren't useless clutter, so that makes a real difference. All the adjustments are minor but they push it from "avoid; hard pass" to "maybe on sale if you love Sunset Riders and Deathwish THAT much".

The pistol characters seem so bad compared to the shotgun characters and that's tied to basic enemy behavior: they only shoot 8 directions and have zero startup frames to fire. So, with spread, you can often kill snipers before they even try to attack, and without it, you risk death to even get a shot in. There's a lot of jank like that feels wrong and is probably never getting fixed. I never thought about why enemies get to shoot at odd angles in Sunset Riders et al, but DWE makes it clear. I had the same kind of revelation about Blazing Chrome's variable jump height. How come they never did that in Contra? Because you almost always want max jump height, and the programmers are sparing you the annoyance of having to hold the jump button down almost every single time you press it.

[BIL]

Ralf almost looks like a Simpsons character in that image.

Worst thing about FC Dogosoken is the boxart is rad. 3; Very attractive edit of the AC flyer, whose art is being mangled in that godawful screencap. Even the new "Ikari II" logo looks great.

THOU WHO ART SELECTED (■｀w´■)

FC Ikari III's box is nowhere as cool, even if the game is 1,000,000 x better than FC Ikari, FC Dogo, and AC Ikari III put together.

Endured so many doujins of Ralf n' Clark "crossing swords" before I finally played the AC ver and got the joke. (◎w◎;)

BECOME A MASTER WITH YOUR SWORD (｀w´メ)

Similar case with FC Kyuukyoku Tiger, although that one is Micronics' absolute zenith - just about tolerable - so its presence won't disgrace your household.

[BryanM]

Bizarrely, he has couched this broadly agreeable judgement in a repeated insistence that another outstanding action/platformer is not just inferior, but outright vacant, derelict, bereft. Lest that deranged strawman start rustling back to life, I should point out for new friends that "Rygar" is about as X-TREEEM and BRUH, OBSCURE a D33P CUT as "Contra" and "Shinobi." Everyone knows Rygar. I didn't know Rygar. I only played it for the first time three years ago. It's a very finessed game! So finessed, if someone were to - however casually - describe it as "mindless melee," I would genuinely wonder if we were discussing the same title.

I guess in his defense I didn't think much of Rygar the very first time I played it either, those decades ago. It took going back to it periodically over days and months to get to "hey, this is pretty rad." Some arcade games do be like that - I thought Dangun Feveron wasn't anything special (its generic space theme doesn't do it any favors. The Atari 2600 and early shooters really drove "space" into the ground) and now it's one of my favorite games. Some things take time to appreciate* ("it opens up like a flower"), and coin-spammers will never have the right mentality to be able to appreciate arcade games.

The slower pace of churning through literally everything does have more value imo than stuff like a certain NES guidebook by a certain poodle-headed fellow. Which leaves you with essentially a limerick and that most dire of sick fetishes reviews love so much: A NUMBER. I think a good analogy would be the difference between trying to learn a language by reading a dictionary (beyond useless) and learning through immersion with its media. (American Wrestling has taught more and better english to foreigners than any of their highschool dictionary-reading-out-loud teachers ever have.)

Anyway. I just played a Konami game that I wouldn't defend against the "mindless" critique. Was expecting to put some time into this one, but it made me bail and bail early. Wait with anticipation for the tiny review post on monday.




* (But I'm pretty sure Mercs ain't like that. Pretty sure I solved it on my first playthrough. Baffled a little by why it's so beloved, maybe it's nostalgia. Mercs fans, go play it back to back with Commando, Smash TV, Robotron, Nazo no Murasamejou, etc, see if it still stacks up.

Obligatory Mercs-dissing has reached its quota. No more from me for the rest of time.)

[BIL]

Oh yeah, I totally get a distilled Rygar or Dangun not grabbing people. They're willfully spartan affairs, even for streamlined AC format; run/jump/stomp, shoot/dodge/grab. What you see in st1 is pretty much what you get, steadily escalated; progression balanced sharply towards the player's evolving technique over the next filmic set-piece.

I'd expect anyone conversant with 80s action/platformers or 90s STGs to intuit this promptly, whether they chose to stick around and engage with the finer points, or go play Strider and RSG instead. Or perhaps Daimakaimura and Rayforce? There's a sliding scale here.

Construing the less fluffy end of the scale as the innately less substantial one is standard boorish fare, of course. \(˘w˘)/ Zoom out a little, and everything arcade ever gets tarred the same.

[BryanM]

Ikari Warriors is definitely in that vein too: you get one stage and if you get tired of looking at jungle, stuff it.

I think often about this minimalist utilitarianism versus aesthetics and variety. One of the horrors I contemplate with jRPG's is: "Is all this time-consuming window dressing really worth it? The game part of the game would be exactly the same if I only had ~5 enemy sprites and colored them differently."

While doing those Pico-8 sprites, I could see the giant godzilla knockoff lizard passing for a "Dragon". Or the giant squid passing as a sea serpent, or abyssian horror. What they look like isn't necessarily exactly what they feel like, and a little bit of text can go a long way.

Some of the more horrible procedurally generated art, like from those rancid NFT sprites, kind convinces me that "yeah, it's worth it." All of the best Pokemon Fusion sprites were made by hand from the community. But also at the same time you have to actually finish something, and art is an easy thing to skimp on, if you're brave enough.

Always with the tradeoffs. "Life is a series of compromises."

[BIL]

But what about Big Grey Fortress at the end of Ikari! A veritable feast for the senses!! :O

(I like the AC flyer's nod to this - "HANG IN THERE TARO-KUN, IT'LL BE RAD WE SWEAR ;3 ;3 ;3")



To be fair, Zombie Hitler's red n' black throne room is a happenin' space. I suppose it's more of an ampitheatre. He's got helis flying around in there, and everything!

I think often about this minimalist utilitarianism versus aesthetics and variety. One of the horrors I contemplate with jRPG's is: "Is all this time-consuming window dressing really worth it? The game part of the game would be exactly the same if I only had ~5 enemy sprites and colored them differently."

OutRun is a masterwork of balancing here. All you do is drive?! NAWWW! But!

Spoiler

Look pon deh SCENES deh JYEAAAA BOYEEEE! Wao, I love OutRun, so cool~! Would Suzuki's game be so beloved, had it sported just the one beach scene, maybe a night city for the last few stages? Who knows. But even if it'd still play great, I do think it would have suffered. A few pages back, the subject of JP Zelda II's unfortunately bland dungeon graphics came up. Even total murder machines like TGM2 benefit from their little audiovisual flourishes as SHTF. Everyone likes Rygar's molten sunsets; I'm especially fond of the way they reflect a morning/noon/night cycle, overlooking flat-black silhouettes of the preceding round's scenery.

They also warn you of incoming minibosses! Look, this crab's trying to tell you something.

Spoiler

This is where that Rygar review fell flat, taking the Ninja Gaiden one - for all its relative diligence - with it. AC Rygar and NES Ninja Gaiden are equally uncompromising action/platformers. Like OutRun, technique is all; the scenery fetching, yet firmly peripheral. Rygar's NES counterpart is all scenery. Its action may be blandly diluted, its terrain paved meekly flat, an anaemic ghost of the arcade's stampede fury. But the scenery - that OutRunesque Beautiful Journey - is now scattered far and wide, turning a mere "videogame" (psh!) into a vast, tepid "virtual world." Little substance, but so much walking back and forth.

I'm not gonna Kool-Aid Man into some poor prick's LP NES Rygar thread all "Psh! Having fun GRINDAN GOPHERS to BUFF UR TONE outside BUTTFUCK CASTLE, noob?" That would be incredibly rude, for one. Also, I like NES Rygar a lot. It's one of those bubblewrap-poppin' longforms perfect for lazy Sundays, ala Blaster Master and The Guardian Legend. Putting it in a deathmatch with its AC counterpart is rank console-warring inanity. It's not a strong action/platformer. It's not even an especially strong ARPG. Dressed up as such for a nostalgia tourism feature, it - and now Ninja Gaiden, with the harping on its cutscenes - is actually made to look pathogenic; the kind of fare that made Miyazaki's affectionate "Prepare To Die" such a reverberating, pants-shitting shock to a flabby mainstream.

Like a NES OutRun (pretend Rad Racer doesn't exist >_>) that drops the blistering rush to an amiable putter, but dots each amazing scene around the topdown venue of Buttfuck City. You have to locate Buttfuck Garage to get Snow Tyres, before you can access ALPS, and sit in traffic to see Buttfuck Mayor for Permit, to race in SEASIDE TOWN. Sometimes your ex-wife phones you to bitch about alimony, so you have to do a pink slip battle in OLD CAPITAL, guarded by Buttfuck Mountain Lion, who's dazzled by Magic Rims (he runs off a cliff and falls to his doom 3;). I'm sure it'd be retconned today as an important stepping stone towards the shining Virtual Future of Sandbox Crime Town XVII: Captain Sandbox Walks Around Town And Does Many Crimes (*Amazon Preorder Bonus: Captain Sandbox's Faithful Dog, Todger) (**Dog Hat DLC Sold Separately).

It'd still be a pretty good game, obviously. NES OutRun, I mean. Well, that's enough stealing traffic from the famous Bad Reviews And You thread.

I have to admit I can't get worked up much about Senjou II / Mercs! Dropping that SUPER 1337 JP titling, as I wonder if there are region differences? No idea tbh. On my mind, as I'm still smarting from the TOTAL DISASTUH of Dark Adventure - which I tried again today, and must confirm is not 95%, nor 96%, but 100% unplayable shite. Entirely on account of that god-awful HP drain! It's ridiculous! You can barely friggin' move. Speaking of scenery, there's literally no time to so much as glance away, on your mad struggle to unveil the next Coke Can (not a euphemism).

"INSERT COINS FOR MORE LIVES AT ANY TIME" warbles Captain Salamander at the title screen. Yeah no shit Cap'n, I'm bleeding out of my ass here! This is the most brazen quarter-muncher I can recall - and that's saying something, amongst NA Konami boards! Shocking. No wonder nobody talks about this game anymore. Majuu no Oukoku is quite alright though, what a goddamn relief going back to that one.

Cracking flyer at least - AS EXPECTED of Konami USA's late 80s marketing division! Perennial menacers to HUNK for my coveted avatar contract! So many ditzy broads and scowling sweaty men.

Spoiler

^^^ MFW trying out Konami USA boards. (He's meant to be screaming in despair!)

[BryanM]

Tried Adventure on your recommendation. The life drain is indeed greedy bullshit. But I wouldn't say the rest of the game was very stimulating, either.

Gauntlet clones tend to not be so grand, eh. No wonder Diablo was such a hit.

Thank god for Alien Syndrome.

[BIL]

Best Gauntlet clone I've played is the Arrange version in M2's MD port. Not really the same thing, almost more of an action/puzzler, with quite a bit of lateral thought involved in unpicking its multi-floor dungeons. Good fun if white-knuckle AC intensity isn't a must. Great soundtrack, from habitual MD titans Sakimoto & Iwata.

Dark Adventure's HP drain is inane enough, I find it genuinely hard to picture how the game might play otherwise. A nonlinear maze version of Majuu Oukoku, with randomly-distributed firearms having to be foraged, and (AFAIK) food drops tied to # of enemies downed? Sounds alright. I'll barely look at hacks, though, let alone play with cheats, so this one's buried AFAIK.

They almost certainly made the right decision, turning Oukoku into a straight up foot-to-floor varmint blaster. The enemies are too weak for a conventional run/gun, but since you're always hauling ass, blasting hordes of would-be interceptors is surprisingly cathartic. I think with a less jarringly tacky aesthetic, and less impenetrable food RNG, it'd be very recommendable. (the concept of a random broad dropped into a Cthonic hellworld and promptly letting loose with a bazooka and TNT is great; I'd just nix the Indy gimmick altogether, make 2P a matching rando salaryman, uwu~)

I like giving NA Konami boards a chance now and then - largely because Hamster always include them in ACA releases, alongside the JP ones - but holy cow, they genuinely can be pretty godawful. Haunted Castle and Crime Fighters US aren't worth playing, either. Granted, the former's JP version barely is either, and the latter's has a laundry list of silly issues (and one brutal one in its Boss Revenge), but they're at least salvageable.

[BryanM]

Konami can be hit or miss. We tend to remember the really really good stuff that made history, and the mediocre stuff falls into the memory hole like the bad (but not horrible) times with an ex. Forgetting that they'd release like 15 different games a year. Half of them rhythm games, when that was a new genre.

It's pretty weird how little specific teams or people get named in this industry. A showrunner like Al Jean is 100% responsible for what ends up being produced, someone is responsible for this shit.

If you see the name Yoko Taro you know the game's probably gonna be bad, but the story will be full of wonderful psychotic nonsense. If you see the name Hideo Kojima you know the game's probably gonna get cancelled.

As much of a jerk Miyamoto can be, sometimes I have to wonder "are there... like only five guys on the planet who know what 'fun' is?????" Tired salarymen just going through the motions: Games journalists aren't paid to play games, but the same is also true of game designers.

[BIL]

Konami's late-80s arcade catalogue does have a surprisingly janky streak, something I don't associate with IREM or Capcom's contemporaries. They often remind me more of lovably scrappy Technos and DECO, actually. Punishingly laggy aiming and howler Stay-Puft hitboxes might shock at first. They certainly shocked me, when I brought a CD-R full of TEH MAMEZ home from the COOLEGE library, after a short lifetime assuming my NES carts would be rank barbarism next to "the real games." The Dreamcast was brand new, and arcade titles still had a holy air about them. Haunted Castle (it was Haunted Castle, not the less horrid if still very poor JP rev) took a flaming torch to all that overnight. 3;

Treacly aim lag in the Contras, pillowfort hitboxes in Salamander, these things make the similar foibles of new ACA releases Manhattan 24 Bunsho and Majuu Oukoku less harrowing than ha, yeah I remember that, let's break out the salvage gear.

Their NA boards of the same period, otoh, orbit a distinct ecosystem of badness. Sometimes they're just hobbled, as with Thunder Cross and Orius (XEXEX), which crudely strip out those games' signature mechanics. Sometimes they're arrantly quarter-munching garbage, as with Haunted Castle and Dark Adventure. Sometimes, it's a bit of both; I'm not sure how debilitating Crime Fighters USA's life drain is, but I do know the loss of its third button severs an already troubled brawler's one lifeline to quality.

(you need the Back Kick's combos to play with any semblance of precision; I'm unsure if they removed it because players were doing too well, or to save a tree fitty on the 4P control panel! either way, it's a shit change)

KICK HIS NUTSACK REPEATEDLY (｀w´メ)

It's not universal; IIRC Typhoon and Lightning Fighters (A-Jax/Trigon) are ok, and both Contras are fine. NA Super Contra is arguably the better version, having just the one loop, which can be turned into JP Loop 2 via difficulty DIP, the strongest intensity-to-runtime ratio of the series. But it's consistent enough that it's never a surprise to come across. Roo mentioned Metamorphic Force getting buggered up too.

Their early/mid-90s stuff feels somewhat informed by the cleaned-up Famicom ports and originals. At any rate, the jarring disconnect when going from the NES ports to their source PCBs isn't there. After his punishingly heavy AC Super Contra, Falco Tsujimoto's Sunset Riders and Mystic Warriors handle just as smoothly as Umechan's beautiful FC port. XEXEX and Salamander 2 recall the much-needed polish of PCE Salamander and Detana Twinbee. Those two arcade STGs, and the equally-refined Crime Fighters 2, also have a measured generosity alien to their often rock-hard predecessors. All of these would've been right at home with what feels like the swan song of their 90s arcade canon, Gradius Gaiden. (Gradius IV is a different animal entirely, its subtitle FUKKATSU apropos another swan song; hardboiled STGs' short-lived yet enduringly furied fin de siecle)

When you read about the godawful conditions some of these poor pricks were working under, it's less surprising to encounter AC jank. If anything, it's more surprising they tended to do so well. Everybody loves Garegga! And Garegga Birds! And most know both were directly inspired by Gun Frontier! But did you know director Takatsuna Senba-san coded the iconic st2 waterfall in his friggin drawers, in sweltering Tokyo summer heat, because he was pulling a Saturday shift and those shitbirds in corporate wouldn't run the AC on weekends? 3;

Almost everybody!

[Sumez]

Someone somewhere on Discord resently posited the claim that until the 90s, Konami didn't ever make any actually good games for the arcade.
My knee jerk reaction is to call that claim ludicrous, but there's probably some truth to it. Though they have numerous noteworthy "classics"... outside of Gradius 2 which I love dearly (and probably Super Contra which actually still haven't given a good shake in its arcade iteration), I'll admit most of them do demand at least some sort of affection and or/patience for the jank that comes with them. I do think there are plenty of enjoyable games in their early repetoire, but yeah, definitely more akin to something like Data East than their typically appointed cronies at Capcom.

Best Gauntlet clone I've played is the Arrange version in M2's MD port.

Gauntlet-likes is definitely an under-explored subgenre. If not by devs, then by me personally as a game enjoyer. I'm not a big fan of Gauntlet itself, and find it a tad annoying to play, but there's a lot to the formula that I love, so alternative takes on the approach would be interesting to delve into. I gotta remind myself to give Devil World a spin if ever given the chance - it does look like something I'd enjoy.
A bit of a stretch on the formula, as it lacks the ferocious intensity and massive monster cockscounts, but I really enjoyed NMK's Arkista's Ring (one of those JP NES titles that never saw a Famicom release). It marries the arcade monster eradicator perfectly with non-intrusive "RPG" mechanics, powered by drop RNG that will force you to adapt on the fly to what you're given. At least until the third loop where you'll be so maxed out on everything that your strategies will align regardless, as you will also be facing much more aggressive enemies.
It's one of those genuinely hidden gems on the platform, given how rarely I see anyone ever mentioning it.

[BIL]

Do make sure to play Majuu Oukoku (or its AFAIK identical EU rev Devil World) instead of Dark Adventure, if you can. Outside of curiosity (Hamster delivers as always! ), DA is almost literally unplayable without regular credits; in fact, I could imagine chucking more in mid-gameplay becoming a legit part of the technique.

EDIT: as a testament to how blearily-eyed I'm typing this, I see you said Devil World Please ignore the above Dark Adventure is that bad a game, I had to say something.

Arkista's Ring (one of those JP NES titles that never saw a Famicom release). It marries the arcade monster eradicator perfectly with non-intrusive "RPG" mechanics, powered by drop RNG that will force you to adapt on the fly to what you're given. At least until the third loop where you'll be so maxed out on everything that your strategies will align regardless, as you will also be facing much more aggressive enemies.
It's one of those genuinely hidden gems on the platform, given how rarely I see anyone ever mentioning it.

Ah man, that name always takes me right back. One of those titles glimpsed in the very first EGMs that made their way to my sleepy town. Never even came close to trying it over the years - sounds superb. I see American Sammy published it... they did some interesting stuff, in hindsight. NES Twin Cobra only barely cuts the mustard (a herculean effort from Micronics), but it was a valuable introduction to Toa-bushi for a NES-only little kid; far moreso than Taito's NES Sky Shark. And Aicom's Amagon/Totsuzen Machoman is, in hindsight, a super legit run/gunner, despite its very silly aesthetic.

NMK's FC/NES-developed titles always catch me off guard, the one I've played most by far being their neat Ninja Gaiden riff Ryuuga, which I think we've spoken of ITT. I was gonna mention the FC version of Argus (host to some of the best ROBO DANCE of any platform), but IIRC that was TOSE's.

Hey, kids! Do The Robot!

INITIATE SEIZURE WARNING DANCE

(even in its NMK-developed, Jaleco-published AC incarnation, you will experience the thrill of Real Landing Sequence Simulator!)

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Gauntlet-likes is definitely an under-explored subgenre. If not by devs, then by me personally as a game enjoyer.

Good top-down action games where you wade through hordes of monsters are tough to find. Gauntlet Legends aren't bad either, at least not the console ports that play somewhat closer to the Genesis version by M2's arrange/"Quest Mode" does but I find the bosses are less about skill and more about grinding until you can tank them or burn through them with items. Unlike the dragons in Gauntlet IV, the bosses in Gauntlet Legends generally like to through unavoidable attacks at you, with only some stuff you can actually dodge.

For something that hits a similar but much more polished note, check out the PS2 games Champions of Norrath, and the sequel, Champions of Norrath: Return to Arms. They're 4 player supported with multitap, multiple character classes with a simplified skill tree system akin to Diablo 2, but play very solidly with a blocking and dodging system built in (while blocking press the button that swaps between melee and bow/throwing weapons). Dodging actually blocks attacks throughout the animation too, and the game's built so that you generally can't tank hits, with even health-built characters dying in 4-5 hits from most things.

Given that this is an action RPG spinoff of the Everquest series of all things, it's frankly absurd how good they play as far as multiplayer dungeon crawlers go. They're better than Gauntlet Legends as far as I'm concerned as the blocking mechanic requires more skill and thought, and bosses are genuinely pretty terrifying without resorting to totally unavoidable attacks you have to tank through.

[BIL]

Thinking back over Konami's 80s arcade catalogue, I'm reminded of why I specified the late 80s as their jank period. There's quite a few very respectable titles from the early/mid 80s. Gradius, of course, but for this thread's purposes, Green Beret is pretty foundational. The dated [up to jump] command notwithstanding, it's possibly the single most complete pre-Dracula action/platformer. I would cite Rygar instead, but that gets into 1986 and Dracula country (Green Beret and Rygar's iterative progression is nowhere as pronounced, but with their similar contrasts, it's inevitably tempting to think of them as the arcade's Konami/Tecmo answer to CV/NG).

I've not played Pooyan and Roc n' Rope long enough to comment with much authority, but those early Fujiwara works seem pretty legit, too. OT, the former's attract mode and general concept always makes me too sad to play for long. They missed a trick not doing a hardcore killathon sequel where mama discovers mechanised warfare.

Plus a bunch of simpler, solidly reliable works like Scramble, Super Cobra, and Road Fighter. And although its bell juggling is one of the most consistently despised things I'm aware of in STGs, Twinbee probably needs a mention too. Always liked what I played, very close to its epochal FC port (as is Gradius to its).

It's really the late 80s set - I'd use Salamander as rough guideline - where it feels like spartan utility takes a backseat to presentation. Salamander is cooler than Scramble - though not heli hori extravaganza Super Cobra and its BOOTY - but in a head-to-head, I'd have to sub in the younger game's PCE port. AC Dracula feels almost unfair to bring up, being such an infamously troubled production, but its bookending by no-nonsense Green Beret and VS Castlevania is a concise image. A very different story if you tag in fellow 1988 horror sidescrollers Daimakaimura and Saigo no Nindou, consummate cutting-edge killers to this day; then GB seems well-succeeded, and VSC merely a strong showing, rather than a total upset.

Gradius II is ofc the golden boy of this set, a boomingly charismatic late 80s titan that's as formally tight as its straitlaced predecessors.

A-JAX is an interesting case; a super-competent Xeviousesque with attractively ramped-up firepower... tied to knockoff Super Scaler interludes feat. iconic JERRY MOUSE. The latter actually aren't too offensive, but I kinda brace myself every time I sit down for another 1CC attempt (it's got just the one loop, a treasured finality and concision).

Along similar lines, I'd love to see Jackal get an ACA release. That's another that, on very distant memory, feels like an outlier in Konami's "Hollywood Period." Can't recall if its aim lag is Bunsho-bad, or Oukoku-alright. The NES version is a wonderful game that more than earned its place alongside Contra, back in the day (these are some angry sweaty dudes! peep the Sully from Commando cosplayer, he's a funny guy, I'll kill him last ), but the AC's contiguous Ikari-style map intrigues me.

[mycophobia]

i kind of like fast lane. that's 80s right? though it is total bullshit lol

[BIL]

Damn, I ain't even heard of that one

[mycophobia]

its basically sega's head-on but with good graphics and music and sounds and stuff. and it's really hard

[BryanM]

Konami started a twitter account a while back to promote the Tokimeki series, tokimeki573. I've speculated it might be in service of an upcoming remake, something Persona-ish would probably do alright. They've commissioned a remake of freaking Silent Hill 2, so it's not impossible.

I wondered what significance the "573" has. From the best I can tell, it's a reference to a cheat to start the game with 573 in all stats. (Not all upside, since you effectively have to hide in a corner to avoid spawning aggressive teenagers. The accumulated aggro is dangerous.)

The cheat requires entering your name as KonamiMan. Googling that, I was reminded of the random weirdo in a random room of Goonies II. "Who the heck is this guy?" I wondered before moving on. The internet hadn't been invented by then, you see. But now it has been, and I now know all about this horrible silly mascot.

They had real affection for their own games back then, with cross overs and references everywhere. They'd jam a Shoot'em up into every game. Famously, they made Yumi's favorite game Gradius. (Which is a huge tangent about the difference between reality and fantasy. Poll all four billion women on earth on what their favorite vidya game is, how many would you imagine would say the Gradius franchise.)

So all this led to me being made much more aware of the Konami mash-up game series. When I gave it a little thought, I was shocked and outraged these were never localized. A game with like 8 different playable characters? That sounded awesome!


Konami Wai Wai World

The screen requires you to be two inches from the edge before it scrolls. Yeah, it's one of those games.

You have giant wads of health to soak hits, every character has their own lifebar. What platforming there is, is non-existent since the jumps aren't hard and there's no inertia physics. What action there is, you can soak hits and heal up with health pick-ups.

One enemy, a spearman mook.. as far as I can tell there is no way to jump over or kill it without taking damage. At least, not until you find a ranged weapon.

Lots of very slow walking through very empty space. It didn't take long until I was strongly wishing I was playing any of the games these characters came from instead. (I can't believe that guy who wrote an FAQ of this dissed Mr.Goemon but loves this game enough to write a full document on it.)

I slogged it out until reaching the end of a stage. Where I was unable to finish it and free the character because I didn't hunt down the key. It was at this point I accepted that there was everything better I could be doing with my life, which is finite, and crystalized my opinion on this game forever.

2/5

(The key/door design here is really pretty stupid. It's a mechanic that always must be used thoughtfully and carefully, as otherwise they're just a timesink.)


Wai Wai World 2

The graphics aren't my thing, but they're technically good. The game itself is incredibly simple and easy, perfect for children and people who can't play video games. But nothing really to offer me.

3/5



Watching youtube videos of Getsu Fuma Den makes me feel like I won't like that one, either. It's a bit odd that was one of the first game franchises Konami commissioned a sequel to last year, after returning to games. After the executives discovered the shocking fact that they were running a video game company.

[BIL]

I wondered what significance the "573" has. From the best I can tell, it's a reference to a cheat to start the game with 573 in all stats.

573 is all over Konami's old games. IIRC it's a Japanese wordplay on the company's name itself? My favourite is the sound test trick in Vampire Killer that'll switch the stage BGMs to Vampire Killer/Bloody Tears/Beginning during POW mode.

[mycophobia]

go-na(na)-mi(tsu)?

[BIL]

go-na(na)-mi(tsu)?

Yeah that sounds familiar - holy cow, I'd forgotten just how many there are A whole arcade board, even.

On the subject of Konami trivia, I always wondered if Yuzo Koshiro and Hideya Nagata's killer X68k Bosconian soundtrack (home of lovable FLASH FLASH FLASH, and sounding for all the world like one of Konami's golden age AC works), deliberately used the trackname "Little Wave." I'd wager so, Koshiro famously citing Gradius as a major inspiration.

Amazing OST, at any rate Recalls the balls-hard bass technique of TSUKACHAN and co at contemporary Sega, too - major Galaxy Force II vibes on some tracks. The original arcade game, while I love it, really feels its absence.

Watching youtube videos of Getsu Fuma Den makes me feel like I won't like that one, either. It's a bit odd that was one of the first game franchises Konami commissioned a sequel to last year, after returning to games. After the executives discovered the shocking fact that they were running a video game company.

Getsu is alright, by mid-80s action RPG standards. It doesn't have WWW's god-awful screen edge riding! But perhaps it is Patient Zero for LONE RANGER's FPV maze bits? Let's not hold that against it. The most interesting things about these days are:

1) the amusingly blatant lift of Namco's smash hit Genpei Touma Den (an archetypal "cool game..." it shouldn't work, it fact, on paper it should be a Euroslop abomination! But there's an unmistakable, MIRRION-FORUDED NIHONJIN STEEL one-credit ethos undergirding to its madness. Protip: you're a SHINDEIRU and mad as fuck samurai with a massive fuckoff sword! You don't dodge bullets, you run straight through them and split the cunts from ballsack to brainstem! KAGEKIYO's berserker HIYAAAAAAAAAA as he lays about all in sight turning grown men's assholes into steaming tataki gets pride of place at the PS2 launch!

Did you think I would not return to fulfill their vengeance?

Spoiler

2) the conspicuous resemblance to NES TMNT aka GEKIKAME NINJA DEN, which is kinda unfortunate - for TMNT! - because that game appears to be on the verge of disintegration for no particular reason at all, yet Getsu is smooth smooth smooth

3) the sha-weeeet holographic boxart, depicting the man GETSU FUUMA ("LUNAR WIND DEMON") splitting some green asswipe's face in half with AUTHENTIC NIHON IAIJUTSU The running slash mechanic AND Famicom Batman/Actraiser II-prefiguring i-frames (see ALSO Jaleco's under-liked NINJA KAZAN, foot of post) will facilitate such tactical ultraviolence!

Come to think of it, Fuuma and Kazan have a bit in common, being obscure titles from major labels with surprisingly progressive ideas about R2RKMF.

Gimme that hitbox bitch (｀w´メ)

Muteki Rastan-ryuu (｀w´メ)

4) the jump-out-of-falling mechanic is legitimately weird! This is a bug they left in isn't it? WRONG BITCH, there's items in pits you need it to grab! It's ALSO in lovably schizoid Athena's Sword Master, adding to the credence that the developers were mischievous fellows!

5) the overworld BGM is a blatant rip of MAGICARU SOUND SHOWA from aforementioned Yu Suzuki masterpiece OUT RUN!

Other than that, eh, it's aight. Zelda II standing fists upraised and impressive hog bulging through trunks amidst the vanquished, concussed field.

[Sumez]

Speaking of late 80s janky Konami, has anyone here ever played Rock'n'Rage? A friend of mine just acquired a cheap PCB of it, and it looks all kinds of wack. Like my kinda thing.

There's quite a few very respectable titles from the early/mid 80s. Gradius, of course

Fwiw I always found the first Gradius game to be extremely janky, especially the original arcade version Maybe a take that'd get me crucified some places, but I just can't get into it. G2 and 3 are my jam. And of course the Parodius series.

but for this thread's purposes, Green Beret is pretty foundational. The dated [up to jump] command notwithstanding, it's possibly the single most complete pre-Dracula action/platformer.

I played the sequel, M.I.A: Missing in Action for a quick 1CC earlier this year. It's a short game and an extremely easy clear on the first loop - but the game gets a lot more interesting on the second one, so don't stop there.

A lot of people seem to dislike that game, but I really enjoyed the snappy Spartan X'sque precision stab and Donkey Kong'ish awareness of foes to avoid getting caught off guard. Though unfortunately it lacks the RNG hell of such classic arcade games, with most enemies being extremely predictable. If they would span on random elevations and unpredictably climb ladders, the game could have been really really good. But around the final stage, and subsequent loops, a lot more dangerous enemy types get thrown into the loop, forcing you to stay on your feet regardless. It's the sort of core gameplay loop I love.

It's kinda regrettable the game doesn't get more attention. It's very similar to Green Beret, featuring almost the exact same gameplay components, but although definitely still a member of Konami's late 80s jank club, I think it does have a more polished feel to it. Let's see what our friends at Hardcore Gaming l0l have to say..

"Game is a brutally difficult quarter muncher, gameplay is not as tight as the first game"

Oh.

[Bassa-Bassa]

It's curious how Thunder Cross and specially Labyrinth Runner get unmistakably forgotten when talking Konami 80s repertoire despite their qualities. Shao-Lin's Road is also a good one, and I don't remember Tooru-kun, Mr. Goemon, Chequered Flag, Battlantis or Garuka being too bad. Gyruss and Juno First had to be awesome on release. Konami also signed some seminal stuff aside of Scramble/Gradius and Contra, like Hyper Olympic and Wec Le Mans (Coreland-developed, but with Konami's patronage). Definitely I can think of quite a few companies from the 80s deserving the janky moniker before Konami.

[Sumez]

I never had the pleasure of playing the first Thunder Cross, but I got the sequel on PCB, and it's definitely a really well playing shooter, if nothing super remarkable (the soundtrack, however, is remarkable). Of course, this one is a little way into the 90s, a point where Konami was already confidently churning out quality.

I regret to declare that I've never tried Labyrinth Runner, but it looks like a game that would be right up my alley!

[BIL]

There's quite a few very respectable titles from the early/mid 80s. Gradius, of course

Fwiw I always found the first Gradius game to be extremely janky, especially the original arcade version Maybe a take that'd get me crucified some places, but I just can't get into it. G2 and 3 are my jam. And of course the Parodius series.

I always found it pretty solid, and by its nature pretty plain, at least by 1ALL standards. I could easily be forgetting things about it / mixing them up with the solidly workmanlike FC port, though.

but for this thread's purposes, Green Beret is pretty foundational. The dated [up to jump] command notwithstanding, it's possibly the single most complete pre-Dracula action/platformer.

I played the sequel, M.I.A: Missing in Action for a quick 1CC earlier this year. It's a short game and an extremely easy clear on the first loop - but the game gets a lot more interesting on the second one, so don't stop there.

Ah man, that's exactly the sort of thing I hope Hamster gets around to. It's surprisingly little-discussed in my experience, too - especially given how famous the first game's NES port was BITD.

Labyrinth Runner / Trick Trap, too. One of those games that's haunted my subconscious, sharing an album with AC Dracula back in the day, but has IIRC never been close to a home release. (not even on the old PS1 comp, which has a few I'm still waiting for Hamster to give definitive HD era translations, like Roc n' Rope, Shaolin's Road, and Gyruss... I guess 1987 is a bit young for that set, now I think about it). Looks rad as hell, I dig that chibi-menacing Dark Ages horror mood. Trap Of Octopus is a mahfuckin jam, sounds like Motorhead covering Loony Toons.

PAPAYA-HIME WO TORIMODOSE (｀w´メ)

I never had the pleasure of playing the first Thunder Cross, but I got the sequel on PCB, and it's definitely a really well playing shooter, if nothing super remarkable (the soundtrack, however, is remarkable).

It's another of those where the Japanese version is essential; as you may know (it's a pretty infamous localisation story), the NA one strips out the Formation control, leaving a competent but undistinguished chassis. It also introduces a conventional Toaplan-style bomb... I wonder if its oft-derided moniker "LIL BABY" is darker than it seems, paired with the ship's name "Blue Thunder 45." Thunder Cross USA: Fat Man and Lil Baby?

The JP revs are great. It's a relatively easy arcade STG, but for good reasons, with the same winning Formation mechanic as TC2. The kind of weaponry that's as involvedly tactile as it is dominant. Gradius V, outstandingly tactile itself, directly imported TC's Formation (and Flamethrower) as its Type 3 Options. Beautiful Gradius II & III-styled OST. III, an eminently tuneful game despite its meanness, even borrows a couple of TC songs; "In The Wind" and "Easter Stone" are reworkings of "Skywalker" and "Machine Graveyard." "Great Battleship" is Tecno Soft-calibre synth-metal; also, Naoto Shibata sets mullets ablaze with his arrangements of both TCs' music.

>TAP THAT COWBELL YOU FUCK (｀w´メ)
>GET THE HOT MOOG ACTION RIGHT NOW MOTHER FUCKER (◎w◎;)

(I never tire of pointing out that TC2's composer Metal Yuhki lifted Anthem's "Bound To Break" for AC Ninja Gaiden's first stage, and then their talisman / bassist / Japanese Steve Harris Shibata ended up arranging his tunes - I wonder if there were any interesting conversations there )

Gotch's ACA release is especially superb, covering the JP Old, JP New, North American, and European revisions (EU is close to JP Old, if I recall right). JP New Ver has harder loops, due to operator complaints about players sitting on the machine all day, so it's a good option to have around. The PS2 port was infamously sketchy, I'm pretty sure it was found to contain (unlicensed?) MAME code. Hamster called the PS4 one "atonement," if I read correctly. This boondoggle was largely why it took no less than your endorsement of ACA Bubble Bobble for me to give the series a chance, a few years back.

It's curious how Thunder Cross and specially Labyrinth Runner get unmistakably forgotten when talking Konami 80s repertoire despite their qualities. Shao-Lin's Road is also a good one, and I don't remember Tooru-kun, Mr. Goemon, Chequered Flag, Battlantis or Garuka being too bad. Gyruss and Juno First had to be awesome on release. Konami also signed some seminal stuff aside of Scramble/Gradius and Contra, like Hyper Olympic and Wec Le Mans (Coreland-developed, but with Konami's patronage). Definitely I can think of quite a few companies from the 80s deserving the janky moniker before Konami.

It's a testament to TC's quality that I completely forgot about it in this context. Super polished game. Where Sunset Riders and Crime Fighters 2 are a quantum leap in user-friendliness over Super Contra and CF1, TC's easily on par with its own sequel and XEXEX. Could handily pass for an early 90s game itself, joining their rugged Toaplanesque Trigon. None of Flak Attack's regrettable palette issues or howlingly unfair memorisers, nor A-JAX's silly gimmicks, just super-cool mechanics that Treasure gave pride of place in Gradius V.

Mr. Goemon is another of those solid earlier 80s (well, 86) titles I was thinking of, don't know how I forgot it. I was gonna mention Yie Ar Kung Fu, too, but I've never played it much. I know Skye's a big fan of it, some great posts from him ITT.

The obvious damage case of AC Dracula aside, Salamander is really the headline case here (redone with an entire Life Force, to be fair). I'm probably being too hard on Detana, but it's impossible not to associate its thorny player hitbox with the earlier game, both having conspicuously cleaned-up PCE ports. The arcade Contras aren't easy games to love, either - though after playing Manhattan 24, I've come to regard all three's 16way aim lag as less of a failing, more a dated style.

Like god damn, Manhattan 24 can seem unplayable if approached like Shock Troopers, where you can (and will ) be surrounded, and simply reflex your way out, even ignoring the dodge roll and CQC. As with the AC Contras, played with the aim lag in mind - much as you'd factor attack startup into heavier action games, ala trad CV - the game design makes a lot more sense. It's a style that fell out of popularity for good reason, imo; hauling your attack trajectory about just isn't as viscerally satisfying, nor consistent, as winding up a heavy hit. Particularly when those aim controls are tied to your movement. But it's not without a certain ethos. Absent an LS-30 or similar dedicated solution, it's best-reserved for the occasional stationary turret/door gunner setpiece, imo.

I find it interesting that Majuu Oukoku sports the same 16way lag - only sensibly minimised, almost to the point of Shock Troopers, where it's truly just an accent. That really confirms for me, it's not that Konami didn't know how to code instant 8way aiming, any more than they didn't know about malleable jump arcs when they designed Green Beret.

[Sir Ilpalazzo]

I've always found the first Gradius easier to get along with than the second, having minimally cleared both. The first game has better pacing; it gets going faster (2's fire dragon stage looks cool but is a lot more sparse than 1's opener) and has less lulls (like 2's weak boss rush) and also less unpleasant jank (recovery in 2's crystal stage or final stage are totally fucked). 2 has the better presentation, and recovering from the first checkpoint in the first game's final fortress seems unreasonable, but outside of that I don't think it's as good of a game.

I should get on Thunder Cross 2 sometime, having listened to its excellent soundtrack a few times recently (it's sad that Heavy Metal Bomber didn't make it onto the Konami Shooting Battle albums). I liked but didn't love TC1 - it's definitely a very thoroughly pleasant game, but even speaking as someone whose spiciest clears are Gradius II, R-Type, and some of Cave's easier releases, Thunder Cross wasn't active enough for me to fully love it; I remember its later stages coming down to just sitting in place while your options wipe the screen for you. Still an enjoyable clear to get down, I'd easily recommend it to anyone looking for a breezier arcade release any day, but I think I've played easier shooters than it that still ended up more exciting.

-

There was some Outzone discussion last page, and I gotta ask: since you guys are ardent fans of the game, do you have any tips for enjoying it? As a tremendous fan of genre standouts like Pocky and Rocky, Twinkle Tale, Shock Troopers, and Mercs original, I'm finding myself unable to get into Outzone. The tiny bullet hitboxes combined with the tiny enemy hitboxes mean killing enemies with the free-aim is a matter of whipping your bullet stream in their directions and hoping they don't still slip through the sizeable gaps - and if they do, you very suddenly eat bullets given that you have to keep moving towards them to attack.

The fixed-aim weapon feels better to run around with, but some level segments are clearly designed around only the free-aim mode, and walking into one of those with the wrong weapon just results in immediate death and recovery, so you just have to strictly memorize which segments are okay to keep the fixed gun for. Both weapons feel awful for boss fights - fixed-aim is too weak, and free-aim is too awkward to hit anything with while dodging at the same time; even the first boss is a pain without just spamming bombs (which maybe you're supposed to be doing? you have like eight by that point).

Outzone has badass music and cool style but, having gotten up to the stage 3 boss so far, it doesn't feel especially fun to actually play. I'd rather be proven wrong and have fun with the game, so does anyone have any advice for how to best approach it?

[Steven]

1. don't play the weird European hard version, at least at first
2. consider who made it: Uemura Tatsuya. That means it's a memorizer and he wants you to learn the game properly just like you would with Kyuukyoku Tiger or anything else he made. Until you have done your memorization, move through the stages slowly without running out of energy, credit feed through it, and don't worry about score or any of the secrets. Once you do your memo, blast through at max speed because the game is built to let you do that and it's fun as shit
3. use Super Ball when learning the game if you want because Super Ball is broken and laughs at the walls that it passes through
4. when you are ready to play for score, get the Super Ball or 3-way on your 8th C and then just bomb your way through the parts where the 3-way is awkward to use
5. shoot Zig at far right side of screen for max points
6. bomb whenever you think you are going to die. Don't hesitate. Just press the bomb button.
7. don't fall in holes (Important!!!)
8. always rescue Pipiru on stage 1
9. you are completely invulnerable when your dude is flashing after you pick up a powerup. You can use this to walk through enemy shots or even walk over holes without falling in
10. you don't seem to have any i-frames after your shield goes down, so things like longer lasers or the punching attack of the stage 6 boss can still basically kill you in one hit even with the shield
11. Never use the 16-way shot for bosses. Use 3-way or Super Ball, or if you are comfortable with Super Burner, try Super Burner since it's the strongest weapon in the game.
12. Super Ball's shot is more powerful than spinning

[Sumez]

I don't think there's any specific "trick" to enjoying Out Zone, I think it's difficult not to.

The tiny bullet hitboxes combined with the tiny enemy hitboxes mean killing enemies with the free-aim is a matter of whipping your bullet stream in their directions and hoping they don't still slip through the sizeable gaps - and if they do, you very suddenly eat bullets given that you have to keep moving towards them to attack.

Well I guess almost never using the directional shot is one, and also use some sort of autofire circuit if you can (or cheat if playing on emulator). With very few exceptions, I stick to the forward facing shot on autofire. I never pick up the flamethrower - it's technically the most powerful weapon if you know how to use it well, but it's a hassle - so know how to recognize that one.
The superball is useful because if you have it you'll never need to switch to the directional shot, though there are places where it's not as useful as the forward shot. Such as that long narrow bridge with the robots firing missiles straight down.

I honestly never identified any hitboxes as being "small" at all. Maybe because I rarely use the free-aim at all.

Like you said, there are definitely segments designed around the free-aim, but they are fewer than you might think - the forward shot can take you though most of them if you know where the few problematic enemies are gonna pop out, and don't dawdle anywhere. I think the only places I switch is at the first of the tight corridor sections on stage 3 and right after the train midboss on stage 4.
I also switch at the second-to-last spot before the final boss, because it's near impossible not to pick up the last weapon switch, and I want to keep the forward shot for that fight.

Both weapons feel awful for boss fights - fixed-aim is too weak, and free-aim is too awkward to hit anything with while dodging at the same time; even the first boss is a pain without just spamming bombs (which maybe you're supposed to be doing? you have like eight by that point).

The forward shot is super powerful for all bosses, but if you die a lot it's likely you never get to upgrade it to level 3. The game is definitely a lot more enjoyable when you start dying less and get into a groove, much like Contra. A no-miss of the first loop isn't particularly difficult when you got a fully upgraded shot.

For the first boss I go up and point blank the leftmost guy, backing up as it rolls in, before it starts firing, which is nearly enough to kill it even with the shoddy low-rate autofire circuit I built. Then I focus on staying near the middle until only the rightmost guy is left, at which point it's a walk in the park. I don't usually use bombs for that fight, but I'll use one if a shot is about to hit me, they can be quite unpredictable.
But since you're apparently playing the eazy-modo rom, you'll have way more bombs than you can ever spend anyway. Most bosses in this game are super easy, with only #5 and #7 really demanding anything outside of knowing where to stand. And it only takes between 2 and 3 bombs to pretty much invalidate any boss fight in the game.
Like Steven said, don't be afraid of just wasting bombs in this game. Stage 5 showers you with bomb pickups and expects you to use them throughout. Most of the snakes at the beginning of that stage are gonna drop one, so might as well bomb them all. It's not much of a challenge, but it's fun!