Prelude to the Apocalypse

[evil_ash_xero]

I'm trying not to post anything rude.

Anyway, it'll be OK guys. If you don't like who's in now, four years from now you can pick someone else.
It's amazing how that works.

They vote in Budapest, but do they choose?

You got me before I deleted that. Damn you!
I'll let you guys hash this out. I'm sure the temp is pretty damn hot in here.

[orange808]

I'm trying not to post anything rude.

Anyway, it'll be OK guys. If you don't like who's in now, four years from now you can pick someone else.
It's amazing how that works.

They vote in Budapest, but do they choose?

You got me before I deleted that. Damn you!
I'll let you guys hash this out. I'm sure the temp is pretty damn hot in here.

There's really nothing to hash out. We all know that democracy in Hungary is window dressing.

[Specineff]

It's not the same Trump as in 2016. He's already shown signs of his mind starting to wander just like Biden's.

[lovecraft]

A great victory for free speech. At least for those of us who value it.

Exactly.

Trump's landslide victory is also the crushing defeat of the mass media, press and showbiz system that spends its time disregarding people's intellectual autonomy and lecturing them. Many have become accustomed to this, and today have an addiction to minorities victimization and community divisions, they need to be told that Trump is the resurrection of Hitler, etc.. They need all that shit because it makes them aggressive and their aggressiveness gives them the impression of being adorned with superior humanist virtues. This is part of the business: emotion must replace rationality and pragmatism.
It's an entire system that was broken yesterday by Trump's victory.
Trump is not perfect, far from it, he has a slightly eccentric style too, it's part of the character, but he did the job: he went out into the field to talk to people, REAL people, he went to talk with everyone, with his detractors, etc. No need for George Clooney, Indiana Jones, Beyoncé or Obama to fill in the blanks. He won with the WHOLE system and 90% of the mass communicators who were against him, because he knew how to do exactly what had to be done to talk to people, because his geopolitical record was much better than his predecessor's and his successor's, and also because people actually reject all the woke/cancel culture crap.

[GaijinPunch]

Okay.

[Koa Zo]

A great victory for free speech. At least for those of us who value it.

Exactly.

Trump's landslide victory is also the crushing defeat of the mass media, press and showbiz system that spends its time disregarding people's intellectual autonomy and lecturing them.

It is certainly important to be able to uphold intellectual autonomy so we can all make unfounded claims and conspiracy theories. After all, "they're eating the cats!"
Correcting a fool uttering such inanity is an afront to "intellectual autonomy".
Yes. A victory for "free speech."

[orange808]

Donald Trump has nothing to do with mass media, press, and showbiz, right?


>Drop no tea
>Get tea
>Get no tea

It works when you have no common sense. Now you're intelligent!

[orange808]

Here's Trump's first term recap, published on 10/8/2021. The published date is important for the quoted bullet points below. Don't be stupid.

The national debt ballooned hugely. Republicans lie and no GOP president has posted a balanced budget since Nixon. If you believe otherwise, you're both wrong and stupid. The facts are beyond reproach.

- Home prices shot up hugely. Rich people increased rents for poor people, despite their own mortgages being locked in at fixed rates. Tons of extra profit for landlords, while home ownership dreams continued to slip away for real working people. Rent increases outpaced both inflation and property tax rises.
- Illegal immigrants flocked into America unchecked across Trump's "open" border hugely. The border must be declared "open" by the Republican definition of the term. If Trump had done anything, the immigrants would have decreased. Trump's soft weak open border invited record numbers of illegals.
- Health insurance shrank for working Americans hugely.
- Trade deficits grew hugely. Trump killed jobs and bought from China and Mexico.
- People lost their jobs hugely, while rich people got free money from the stock market.
- Murders increased hugely. Trump was soft on murder.

Get ready for a repeat. Trump had full control of the entire government in 2017 and 2018. Nobody interfered. It's not anyone else's fault. I'm not hearing excuses.

Here's his numbers.. Here's what he did.

• The economy lost 2.7 million jobs. The unemployment rate increased by 1.7 percentage points to 6.4%.

• After-tax corporate profits went up, and the stock market set new records. The S&P 500 index rose 67.8%. This happened while Americans were losing jobs.

• The international trade deficit Trump promised to reduce went up. The U.S. trade deficit in goods and services in 2020 was the highest since 2008 and increased 36.3% from 2016. Trump lied.

• The number of people lacking health insurance rose by 3 million.

• The federal debt held by the public went up, from $14.4 trillion to $21.6 trillion.

• Home prices rose 27.5%, and the homeownership rate increased 2.1 percentage points to 65.8%.

• Illegal immigration increased. Apprehensions at the Southwest border rose 14.7% (in 2020) compared with 2016.

• Coal production declined 26.5%, and coal-mining jobs dropped by 25%. Trump lied.

• Handgun production rose 12.5% (in 2020) compared with 2016, setting a new record.

• The murder rate (in 2020) rose to the highest level since 1997.

I can hammer this out, but Kamala Harris can't even finish a coherent fucking sentence. Of course, she couldn't mention any of this shit, because she would have to promise to fix something.

Under Trump, people that owned stocks and land went "to work" by doing nothing, while the cash and tax breaks rolled in; working people lost their jobs and the national debt skyrocketed. Trump's national debt increase is the largest single term jump in recorded American history as I write this. The orange savior didn't do shit.

[BryanM]

Hasan is going apeshit over the D's campaign strategy, but really I can't share his anger. This was the best they could do.

Yeah, it was really stupid she did multiple in-person events with Liz Cheney and zero with Sanders, but what do you want? They're the Washington Generals. Tim Walz and promising some price controls against price gouging on groceries was 10,000% better than I expected.

Reading /r/neoliberal is always surreal after a big loss like this. At some level... at some level I believe most of them understand that they're the problem. While a lot of them do live with their heads up their asses doing 'math to make themselves feel better', they do tend to be smart enough to know better. But despite that, they can't help but be themselves.

They're like those people on My 600-lb Life. It's gotten so bad and gone long past time to stop the self-harm, but they just refuse to change.

A party committed to the status quo, and a party committed to returning to feudalism. The ratchet effect will only allow us to go in one direction as long as we have zero counter-acting force against this.

It's probably true that Trump isn't the endpoint of history, unless Elon Musk does manage to successfully turn himself into the godking of humanity. Trump is just another dot on the graph.

On a line that's only going in one direction. More capitalism.

*unless Elon Musk does manage to successfully turn himself into the godking of humanity

This really is some sci-fi horror movie shit, people.

He almost certainly shares Epstein's dream of killing off all the men and putting women into automated breeding facilities (his seed only, of course) to remake humanity in his image. You... you normos have no idea. This really is what his idea of the ideal future really is. (If you don't believe that it's possible for him to believe these things, you have your head far, far up your ass. Please pull it out and learn more about singularity-pilled culture, and consider what it would mean to make a single human being literally into God.)

Thankfully I think his odds of realizing this is less than 1%. Unfortunately before his current position as the chief executive officer of the US Government department of D.O.G.E., his chances were a virtual 0%.

As I said, the bad lines only go up while the good lines go down.

'Aw shucks, we'll get'em next time. See-sawing is just a totally normal thing elections do', the neolibs tell themselves.

Hah....

===========

One of the things I think a lot about sometimes is how the Gravel kids back in the day created a youtube channel called The Gravel Institute, with the idea it would be competition against PragerU. (Their best performing video is the one with David Cross.) The fascists have this massive media apparatus talking to people 24/7, from FOX news on down, but the neolibs seem to have absolutely zero interest in competing at all on this front.

$1 billion dollars a year. Imagine what could have been built with that money.

[Sima Tuna]

Dems don't understand that nobody below the age of 50 watches cable news, daytime talk shows or late-night tv. That stuff went out with my parents' generation. My mother tells me about old SNL skits and I roll my eyes. Before my time. And unlike the Muppet Show, and other cool shit from before my time that I do like, I have no interest in watching. If I never saw another late-night television skit for the rest of my life I would be happy.

Kamala's campaign was poor on every possible level. An incredible amount of money spent for a hilariously terrible return. Her blaming Biden now is silliness. Of course Biden is partially to blame, but not entirely. There was no perfect solution to Biden's senility. He should have been replaced much earlier yes, and not allowed to make a fool of himself on a live debate, thus shattering Democrat voter confidence. But who would have replaced Biden? Probably Kamala. And then you would still have every other problem with how she ran her campaign, which would still have happened the same way. Biden's administration has been extremely unpopular. Not only did Kamala represent that administration but she was adamant about not wanting to change much from it. Her base asked her to take a harder line on Gaza and she said no.

Bottom line is Trump fired up his base to vote for him. Kamala threw a wet blanket over her base. I think a lot of undecideds jumped onto Trump because of how effectively he was able to communicate his message using the media that younger voters are actually watching.

[orange808]

Not only did Kamala represent that administration but she was adamant about not wanting to change much from it. Her base asked her to take a harder line on Gaza and she said no.

Please lay out your Gaza strategy in detail. If you veer into unrealistic or utopian bullshit (and you so fucking will), I'm gonna call it out.

Take a swing. Go ahead. No alternative histories, please. This is about the last year.

Or, save yourself some trouble and call out Israel for taking advantage of their leverage in nasty ways. They did it for similar reasons to Putin invading Ukraine. Ultimately, they knew America couldn't do anything to stop them. Israel took the opportunity to pursue their policy goals. And, we have to acknowledge why some of their goals are valid. The people they are fighting want to destroy their country completely and nobody is interested in any negotiated peace on either side. Iran is behind this and they have no motivation to make peace. It's a proxy war.

And, that last part about America is worth mentioning. For all the things we are justified in criticizing, Russia and Israel did what they wanted to with no restraint, because America couldn't stop them. Biden would have liked to stop both of them. These events weren't what America wanted.

And, what the fuck did anyone win with Trump? He wants Palestinians to be slaughtered. He wants to fight Iran. He also doesn't care what Putin does. He wants to surrender and hand the Rhinelands to... I mean... hand Ukraine to Putin. Ignore that Rhinelands part, right?... ...

Like it or not, foriegn policy is a thing and seriously preaching isolationist policy sounds exactly like Trumper bullshit to me. We don't have anything besides Israel in the region. There's no off ramp. You can write a history lesson for me. Go ahead. We can rehash all the bad. It won't change the situation Biden faced over the last year. If you're frustrated about one year of Biden, check back with me after four years of Trump. If you were worried about Iran getting the bomb with Harris, I can guarantee it's happening before 2028 with Trump.

America doesn't govern the world. Biden isn't really responsible for all this shit. If America ruled the world, Israel wouldn't be embarrassing them with their own weapons and Putin wouldn't be in Ukraine.

No candidate could offer much of anything on Gaza.

[BryanM]

My mother tells me about old SNL skits

Hey check out this dope SNL skit. I think that guy will really take off and become a big star.

... ah, it was an edgier time back then. 'Jane you ignorant slut' and the Eddie Murphy skit where he goes undercover as a white person seem impossible this day and age. I mean yeah they should be, all things become old with time, but the golden ages when they weren't moldy rotten institutions that need to torn down so something new and better could be built in their place.... I guess there is something nostalgic about that.

Kamala's campaign was poor on every possible level.

Eh.... eeeeeehhhhhhhhh....

Yeah it was bad on a cosmic objective scale, but you have to use the smaller relative scale. This was a democrat campaign. It could have been far, far worse.

The system wanted her to pick Josh Shapiro as her running mate. Josh Shapiro as the future of the democratic party. JOSH FUCKING GOD DAMN SHAPIRO.

Look at all the motherfuckers in the machine screaming that he should have been the VP pick.

Would Josh Shapiro have played Crazy Taxi with AOC on a stream? Would dogs and small children sense 'good vibes' off of him, or would they flee for their lives like a rational person with a functioning 'stranger danger' section of the brain?

Nah. Hell nah.

The funding a genocide in Palestine thing might have cost her the election, absolutely. The data said being pro-genocide hurt her, because of course it did. But could she have thrown her boss under the bus on the issue? Without being replaced or even possibly killed? It allowed the R's a win on both sides of the issue - the people with two brain cells who know it'd be even more pro-genocide, while the mouth breathers could sprout the lie that Trump is the candidate of peace.

Absolutely her charisma was lacking, but she can't help but be herself. She's actually a little bit likeable as a person when she's allowed to be herself, unlike the 2016 candidate.

On the relative scale, considering the system she's subservient to, she did the best she could. She did better than Al Gore (reminder his running mate was the Josh Shapiro of the time, Joseph Lieberman) and John Kerry, give her that much at least.

The entire system is engineered to make sure democrats serve capital. (Destiny fans trying to get Hasan banned is such a lib response to yet another L.)

If AOC really turns out to be a Sanders-type fellow and wins the next presidential primary, they will destroy her by whatever means is required. First by co-opting, then by slander on TV, then by murder if that doesn't work. She'd join the likes of the Boeing whistleblowers if she tries crossing the line.

Expecting anything better from mankind is unrealistic. Join the machine cult and serve the basilisk already, instead. It's the only reasonable thing to do.

[orange808]

You gotta help me here, Bryan.

What are we supposed to do about Gaza? Biden has called Netanyahu multiple times and he (basically) keeps telling Biden to fuck off.

Are you really suggesting an isolationist policy? That's what I'm getting. All this shit is no fun, but is that really a solution?

There's nothing we could do before the election. Biden already threatened to delay weapon deliveries.

Trump is the candidate Israel wanted most and there was no other candidate on the ballot besides Harris. What could be done? (Lesser evil and whatnot.)

Netanyahu is responsible for this. Why the fuck is the American president always responsible for everything that happens on planet Earth, anyway? Nobody asked for this.

What good would it do if Biden went on television and said: "Netanyahu tells me to fuck off and I can't do much about it right now."?

Before Iran got desperate and sentenced Gaza to death for their foreign policy aims (what other conclusion is there?), we were about to normalize relations in the region. Even the worst outcome of that would be better than the terrible war we got. It might have even provided better ties with Israel's neighbors and some flexibility with Israel.

People behave like Biden is happy about this. You might say that people would have felt better with an explanation, but that's not true. People asked for the impossible this time. Unwinding American relations with Israel would take years and it would require a significant shift elsewhere in the region. How do we do this?

[Sima Tuna]

I think you maybe misunderstood what I was saying, Orange. I wasn't saying it's possible to just totally cut Israel off. I'm saying that Kamala's political base was comprised of a large number of people who are generally on the Gaza side of the Israel-Gaza conflict and they're very unhappy about the media machine constantly showing them images of dead kids and knowing that the weapons and money Israel is using to do that comes from the United States. Kamala's base wanted her to condemn Israel's actions more strongly and push from the outset for at least some economic sanctions. Even a token effort to push back against the "pro-Israel no matter what" party would have helped her image with her base.

I'm not the one expecting a miracle in the Middle East. I'm not the one saying the USA should police the world. I'm saying that Kamala's voters were unhappy with the whole Gaza mess and they were looking to her as a prospective leader of the United States to offer up some kind of solution to American entanglement and complicity in these crimes. If Kamala held the view that we should support warcrimes as part and parcel of supporting Israel, and that we should support Israel no matter what because they are our only ally in the Middle East, then she should have said so. I don't think she believes that though.

I doubt very much that Harris or Biden were happy when Netanyahu expanded the fighting with his neighbors, indeed. It's their great misfortune that they happened to occupy the two highest-ranking political offices of one of the most powerful nations in the world, and a nation which has ideological, religious, direct economic and armament supply ties to Israel. I mean, if the US can't pressure Israel then who the fuck could? We have to at least try, don't we?

[orange808]

We have to at least try, don't we?

Sure, but isn't that what everyone has been doing?

I hope this one doesn't get paywalled before people see it:
https://foreignpolicy.com/2024/10/02/ga ... -leverage/

Look, I'm frustrated too. I suppose Biden could have put more window dressing on the matter, but there's really nothing America could have done to stop Israel. People asked for the impossible on this.

No matter what, the images were going to keep rolling in.

There's something else in play. Has Israel been waiting on a cease fire intentionally to influence the election? Let's be honest, here. That's very very likely. They already embarrassed America. They're bombing people with American weapons and thumbing their nose at the United States in the process. It's really not that hard to believe they would try to influence the election.

[BryanM]

What are we supposed to do about Gaza? Biden has called Netanyahu multiple times and he (basically) keeps telling Biden to fuck off.

The same thing as every other president from Ronald Reagan on down. Tell them to knock it off or we won't fund them.

Where would Netanyahu get funding to feed his pirate ship from, if not us? Russia? China? Germany? Britain? Who are we ceding sovereignty of their country to?

If Jeff Bezos or whatever other group of zillionaires want to be in charge of the place, instead of making the rest of us foot the bill, they can pay for it themselves.

All it takes is one month of payroll to be missed, before the goober responsible gets thrown over the side and replaced. This is the reason it's always worked before. Biden is an exceptional crony for AIPAC, and they know he's bluffing. (If he's even bluffing. I don't believe for a single second he really threatened to withhold anything substantial from them, however.)

Once they started assassinating generals, this was no longer a conquest of Palestine thing. It's a manifest-destiny the entire middle east thing. An absolutely batshit insane neocon wet dream that'd be a funnel of absolute misery that wouldn't work. (I suppose we could 'win' by nuking the place into glass. They'd sure love that, I suppose... Just toss a few more races and cultures into the dustbin of history...) At this point, Netanyahu really is in charge of our foreign policy - the tail wagging the dog so to speak.

We're funding them so we can get into active war with Iran. That's the bottom line. So forgive me for thinking we should draw the same line that renowned peace-lover Ronald Reagan drew.

[Hoagtech]

I think there's a lesson of strategy here.

They had the majority of news outlets training the minds of potential voters but it worked against the people in the end. The rhetoric got too heightened to the point of Boy Cried Wolf.

I remember the day Kamala made the Nazi references and to me it was the equivalency of debating someone over a society topic and having someone give up in frustration call you a bad name like a retard.

As soon as the sensible stances leave the room you lost. No one cares but the name caller after that point.

I hope Trump delivers and unlike Turtles covid assessment of his term. He had some breakthroughs in his last term in jobs and economy. With the House and Senate on his side. I will eat my hat if he’s not able to break ground on his plans.

[BryanM]

They had the majority of news outlets training the minds of potential voters but it worked against the people in the end. The rhetoric got too heightened to the point of Boy Cried Wolf.

I remember the day Kamala made the Nazi references and to me it was the equivalency of debating someone over a society topic and having someone give up in frustration call you a bad name like a retard.

Unfortunately I have to agree with you on this point Hoag. Normos don't know shit about anything, so they form their own model of reality based on whatever small snippets happen to land in front of them from whatever media they consume.

The man was basically giving blood and soil-paraphrased Hitler speeches by the end there. It isn't something in the closet and is hanging right out there in the open, you don't have to waste everyone's time pointing out the obvious. Anyone who can't see it will never see it, and will get angry at you for trying to disturb their delicate mind-palace. Germany was in denial even after they literally had the camps, after all. They needed those jobs and didn't care how they got'em.

But still, my god the double standard. Someone applied a label on Trump. He'd never do something like that in his very non-nazi speeches about the sub creatures poisoning our blood who have to be removed.

lmao at the 'when Hitler used those words, he meant something very different from when I used those words' speech though. lmao. He really is the best avatar of the end. I'll give reality that much at least.

[lovecraft]

A great victory for free speech. At least for those of us who value it.

Exactly.

Trump's landslide victory is also the crushing defeat of the mass media, press and showbiz system that spends its time disregarding people's intellectual autonomy and lecturing them.

It is certainly important to be able to uphold intellectual autonomy so we can all make unfounded claims and conspiracy theories. After all, "they're eating the cats!"
Correcting a fool uttering such inanity is an afront to "intellectual autonomy".
Yes. A victory for "free speech."

But you did understand what I meant ? Once again, I do not condone Trump's outrageous comments during the campaign (note that there were some on both sides). But I hope you have noticed that the media system as a whole, the press, and showbiz, that is to say the whole system that spends its time to dictate what the people should think and how they should think, has deployed phenomenal force to demonize, caricature Trump, and tell people that if they vote for him, they are fascists who vote for Hitler. I think peoples get sick of that, I think people are tired of being lectured with that excessive and permanent politically-correct soup, to the point that people are afraid to say what they think so as not to be called "fascists", etc. That's what has failed this time imo, and that's an excellent thing for the intellectual autonomy I was talking about.

[lovecraft]

And also, we have to recognize that Kamala Harris' misfortune was in no way being "a woman", nor a "racialized woman" to use the terms of certain Dems : her misfortune is to having been a mediocre vice-president, who gave empty speeches, soo empty, during her campaign which was generally too focused on the mantras of wokism, and not enough on the difficulties of the working class, the purchasing power of the people, the economy... Like Bernie Sanders analysed it, Trump early understood that it was necessary first and foremost to talk to the working class.

[neorichieb1971]

I can't wait until Russia/China or some other country starts doing the same stuff as Israel is doing right now and you start hearing rhetoric like "Axis of evil, Regime, breaking laws of the Geneva convention" etcetc.

I just cannot wait.

[orange808]

I can't wait until Russia/China or some other country starts doing the same stuff as Israel is doing right now and you start hearing rhetoric like "Axis of evil, Regime, breaking laws of the Geneva convention" etcetc.

I just cannot wait.

Someone call the world police. ¯⁠\⁠_⁠(⁠ツ⁠)⁠_⁠/⁠¯

I'm sorry the explanations are complicated and inconvenient. We're a bunch of a helpless monkeys on a sleigh ride into the abyss.

All the nations you mentioned are directly or indirectly behind Iran's attack on Israel. They are also angling for influence and they want Saudi Arabia in their orbit.

Russia and China are already behind Iran. They are already involved.

Where would Netanyahu get funding to feed his pirate ship from, if not us? Russia? China? Germany? Britain? Who are we ceding sovereignty of their country to?

We already went over that. Abandoning Israel isn't an option. Netanyahu is a leader that could get thrown in prison if he loses power. Did you forget? It doesn't matter what you threaten. He completely understands that America needs him and cannot abandon him. He also has his own self preservation to worry about--and his own extreme right wing goals.

You keep assuming that Israel is reasonable. They aren't.

The other stuff about cutting them off is utopian fantasy. You're venting. ¯⁠\⁠_⁠(⁠ツ⁠)⁠_⁠/

Sorry about the shugging, but it's all I can do at this point. There's no answer. Israel needed to be confronted 40 years ago. We're too far down the rabbit hole.

[orange808]

her misfortune is to having been a mediocre vice-president,

The Constitution doesn't grant Vice Presidents very many duties, outside of being available in an emergency.

Vice Presidents are left out by design. If memory serves, John Adams (the first American Vice President) immediately complained about it within the first four years of Washington's first term (the first American president). That's particularly interesting, because Adams was one the most active Vice Presidents in history and cast multiple deciding votes for Washington's administration. Since then, Congress has become more savvy and they avoid situations like that. Vice Presidents don't do a whole lot. The Constitution would need to be redesigned to have an active Vice President.

You're right about Sanders. He has a winning message and the rich elites prefer Trump. They picked Harris to lose. Democrats are centrists and they exist to lose.

I don't think Harris knows she is part of an organization that exists to lose by design. Regardless, her entire campaign was ultimately aimed at flipping white women. White women ignored her and chose Trump.

[neorichieb1971]

I can't wait until Russia/China or some other country starts doing the same stuff as Israel is doing right now and you start hearing rhetoric like "Axis of evil, Regime, breaking laws of the Geneva convention" etcetc.

I just cannot wait.

Someone call the world police. ¯⁠\⁠_⁠(⁠ツ⁠)⁠_⁠/⁠¯

Don't really care about any outcome, just want folk to see the double standards of labelling countries into good and bad categories that do the same thing.

[orange808]

I can't wait until Russia/China or some other country starts doing the same stuff as Israel is doing right now and you start hearing rhetoric like "Axis of evil, Regime, breaking laws of the Geneva convention" etcetc.

I just cannot wait.

Someone call the world police. ¯⁠\⁠_⁠(⁠ツ⁠)⁠_⁠/⁠¯

Don't really care about any outcome, just want folk to see the double standards of labelling countries into good and bad categories that do the same thing.

That's bullshit, though.

Please analyze the human rights situations and leadership in the nations you mentioned.

Only one party on the list that ("does the same thing") wants to stop redrawing borders and get on with it: the west. Only the west wants peace.

Iran wants to completely destroy Israel and America and they've been saying so (with enthusiasm) for decades. Do you think they are fucking kidding?

We can get Iran, North Korea, and Russia off the board right now, can't we? They're bad.

China is the only other player that's somewhat similar to the United States, but they want to transform the globe into a dystopian secret police and surveillance state that goes far beyond an American Republican's wildest wet dream. China also doesn't care what their allies do. Nobody in China cares what Russia does in Ukraine and there's no debate about it. That's quite different from our discussion about Israel, isn't it?

Ultimately, good and bad are just words, but China is... bad. There's no good guys. There's no heroes, but there definitely are villains. China is one of them.

Is anyone in China wondering how to get out of Russia and punish them for what they are doing? That's what a lot of American leaders are thinking about and wishing for with Israel--even if it's hard to say so out loud right now. Probably won't happen, but I would define "good" and "bad" based on how people feel and their intentions. There's a growing grudge with Israel for what they're doing. Russia isn't embarrassing China at all, because what they're doing fits inside China's values. That sounds bad to me.

[Sima Tuna]

Only the west wants peace.

Iran wants to completely destroy Israel and America and they've been saying so (with enthusiasm) for decades. Do you think they are fucking kidding?

I don't know about Iran specifically, but the idea that the Arab world wants to totally obliterate Israel and America seems not universally correct.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Peace_Initiative

The Arab world has proposed peace in the past. Perhaps the terms were not to the liking of America and Israel. And we don't know what would happen if Israel accepted some or all of these terms or tried to haggle them around. We don't know because Israel isn't interested in any deal that involves staying within their borders.

But at least an effort has been made by some in the Arab world to try to stabilize the region, and that effort has been rejected by Israel. Even if the Muslims and Jews will always hate each other, individuals within those groups have tried to bring about a more peaceful resolution. The current Israeli administration is not interested in peace at all.

Incidentally, the Bush administration supported the arab peace initiative. Bush, of all people. The Israeli government has rejected it (despite paying lip service to the concept of peace) and suggested a counter-proposal but they have never actually put one forward... Because they're not serious about peace. If they put forward a counter-offer and it was accepted, then they would have to stop expanding their borders. They won't do that. Netanyahu does not want peace.

As far as Iran wanting to destroy America, well they can "want" whatever they wish. I would hope even the stupidest individual in Iran recognizes the impossibility of realizing their desire, and that this understanding leads to a realization they will have to live with the continued presence of western infidels in their world. Iran simply lacks the power (the entire Arab world does) to "destroy" the United States. The logistics alone render it impossible. I'm sure the Jews also want to destroy the Arab world. But it would seem Netanyahu has not given up on this dream.

[orange808]

First of all, Iran just sacrificed Gaza on purpose to advance their goals.

Second, you are obfuscating. I don't understand what a wikipedia article and the rest of the Middle East has to do with Iran. Mexico is North America. So, the region here isn't committed to sending weapons to Israel at all.

Convinced? No? Well, fuck... I wonder why...

Iran doesn't want a two state solution. They want to destroy Israel. They didn't want normal relations between Israel and Saudi Arabia, because that could eventually lead to a settlement after a regime change in Israel finally ended their extreme right wing bullshit. Like Iran, the west made their intentions crystal clear, by the way.

If Iran wanted peace and didn't want to destroy and conquer Israel, they wouldn't be building infrastructure throughout the Middle East to surround and attack Israel.

What you're telling me is....bullshit.

Of course, Israel doesn't want peace. I already said that shit. Iran doesn't, either.

America is yelling "stop!" and China is yelling "go!", by the way. Who's bad? Israel played America to work against it's will. Russia and China have no disagreement at all.

And, that "Iran can think what they want, because it's a pipe dream" reminds me of the Democratic response to Trump's presidential campaign in 2016.

[Sima Tuna]

First of all, Iran just sacrificed Gaza on purpose to advance their goals.

Second, you are obfuscating. I don't understand what a wikipedia article and the rest of the Middle East has to do with Iran. Mexico is North America. So, the region here isn't committed to sending weapons to Israel at all.

Convinced? No? Well, fuck... I wonder why...

Iran doesn't want a two state solution. They want to destroy Israel. They didn't want normal relations between Israel and Saudi Arabia, because that could eventually lead to a settlement after a regime change in Israel finally ended their extreme right wing bullshit. Like Iran, the west made their intentions crystal clear, by the way.

If Iran wanted peace and didn't want to destroy and conquer Israel, they wouldn't be building infrastructure throughout the Middle East to surround and attack Israel.

What you're telling me is....bullshit.

Iran supports the arab peace initiative though.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/why-is-is ... nitiative/

I don't know if Iran has backed out on its support for the arab peace initiative, but it certainly did claim to support it at one time. I found more current sources but they were paywalled. >_>

I'm just saying, bro people in the middle east have put forward ideas to move towards peace. Israel rejects them all. And Israel doesn't even have a counter-offer.

[orange808]

Iran supports a peace initiative and simultaneously funds and trains multiple terrorists to attack Israel? They spend all that money and time, but they don't want it to succeed. They're actually trying to stop themselves.

Okay.

Israel and Russia are UN members, by the way. That doesn't count for anything, either. We already know they don't respect the rule of law or anything the UN stands for.

Sounds a lot like your peace initiative thing.

[neorichieb1971]

How do Israelites act like Wolves in the center of a region in which they are hated so much and still feel comfortable?

As for everything else said, I do not believe that Israel is required to flatline a whole region to feel safe, regardless of the threat.

In reality, a few well placed huge bombs/rockets/missiles could be detonated near the populace areas as a threat and state the next one is on top of you. But instead they have massacred 1000's of people and let the rest rot.

I am so happy the USA does not have the leadership of Israel at this time, or anytime time hopefully.


At this moment in time, support for Israel should been dropped.