Ketsui X and Daioujou Black Label X - Ports for Xbox 360

[Limbrooke]

I know it's a dickish thing to say, but I don't want 5pb to port Ketsui at all. Sorry, console users. I'm serious though. Drop the project. Hire Mihara or forget cancel it.

Hahaha, you're such a queen, dude.

I agree with him. The console port of Ketsui should be done by someone capable or not at all.

I doubt they'll make the same mistakes again, perhaps they'll even get wise and delay the release for further tweaking. As I stated before, 5pb has (until BL was released) a zero track record with shooting games and or games of this quality and suffice to say anyone thinking there wouldn't be problems has their head in the clouds.

I hope Ketsui is delayed and further refined which could be used to impliment changes or advantages compared BL upon it's initial release. The longer the better I say since it's already delayed from 2002 in my books.

As for Arika taking the reigns they had their chance on PS2 and dropped the ball(whether or not taking further time to develop if possible or choosing a different platform to develop on). Honestly though, I would've liked seeing them tackle this in the first place, for Ketsui anyway given the association, but for whatever reason the chips didn't fall that way. Maybe there's hope for future Cave work.

Remind me again what adverse effect it has on anything if there's an inferior port of Ketsui available to the larger audience?

Agreed.

[adversity1]

Remind me again what adverse effect it has on anything if there's an inferior port of Ketsui available to the larger audience?

Because once it's ported, and if there are severe defects with it not reparable by a patch, the likelihood of it ever being ported again is very low. Especially given that Ketsui was 2002/2003 and we are in 2009 in a new gen of gaming. At least if it there isn't an existing port, a more capable company might take a chance on it down the line.

---

Speaking of Ketsui, apparently the reserve item for the game is a guidebook similar to Daioujou's. DOJ's was pretty nice so I'd pick this up.

http://www.amazon.co.jp/gp/redirect.htm ... ative=1211

[SAM]

I know it's a dickish thing to say, but I don't want 5pb to port Ketsui at all. Sorry, console users. I'm serious though. Drop the project. Hire Mihara or forget cancel it.

Hahaha, you're such a queen, dude.

I agree with him. The console port of Ketsui should be done by someone capable or not at all.

I think 5pb is doing a better job than Hamster. I rather have a decent playable port, then having it be released as budget game or within a compilation, which would be even worse.

It seems that hardcore shmups players are really hard to please, we already got very little new blood. If the situation / trend continue like this, console game publishers would start consider the genre not .profitable.

Each failed project / product would lead to less future attempts, and less effort would be risked in a new project / product.

*****************

To be fair, I think 5pb shouldn't pick DDP DOJ, there are quite a few older Cave shmups which haven't been ported yet. The previous port, especially a superior one, really hurt.

[BulletMagnet]

Because once it's ported, and if there are severe defects with it not reparable by a patch, the likelihood of it ever being ported again is very low. Especially given that Ketsui was 2002/2003 and we are in 2009 in a new gen of gaming. At least if it there isn't an existing port, a more capable company might take a chance on it down the line.

Considering how many shmups remain arcade exclusives, I'd say that the fact that any port whatsoever is happening is already an overcoming of quite unfavorable odds, and that "holding out" for anything better is almost certainly a pipe dream. In any event, while few console ports are perfect (which isn't surprising, since there's little profit to be made in the genre as it is, and expending the time and effort towards uber-ports is pretty much assuredly not financially sound), far fewer still are "broken" to the point of unplayability, or even notably diminished playability - anyone who's that concerned with perfection can ignore "sub-par" ports and buy the PBCs as they always have, but those of us who don't have the time or money to put into a supergun or cab can get at least a passable experience at a fraction of the cost.

Especially given the modern gaming landscape, I really don't think that expecting/demanding perfection is going to get the majority of us anywhere - everyone else, as I said, can keep buying the PCBs, and that's fine, but don't accuse us of "spoiling the chances of a better port" by not analyzing everything we play down to the last pixel, because it pretty much assuredly was never going to happen in the first place.

[adversity1]

[quote="BulletMagnet"][/quote]

I think you're getting me wrong here. I don't own any PCBs and am not in a financial position to buy them. I do live in Japan and have access to some of the best arcade shooters within a ten-block radius. I'll have to admit my bias there.

I disagree however that there is no profit to porting _good_ shmups. 11,000 sales for DOJBLEX in one week in the face of really bad internet reviews. 29k for Otomedius I believe? And that game is awful, it just has some sex appeal. So combine the two, a good game with sex appeal (for the wrong reasons but...), Deathsmiles, which apparently has already sold out its LE in preorders. Deathsmiles will do numbers, watch.

Even a small porting team like 5pb had SHOULD have been able to get the job done, after all its been done before, and the actual port of BL is, besides some really bad bugs, wholly playable. 5pb's problem is that they seem to have no quality control, testing or even basic sense of what users would want from the menus/leaderboards/replays/practice modes etc. which add a lot to the value of a console shmup.

I'm waiting for the patch to see what they manage to improve, but I am not expecting anything impressive. In fact I'm expecting more problems.

For Ketsui 5pb is, as GP put it, not 'the team for the job', this has been proven by the rush/hack job this port is. They should patch DOJ and then either hand Ketsui off to another company or pull Mihara in as a consultant and follow his every order. Incidentally he offered on his blog the other day to help out Sakari with the Ketsui port if he needs it.

What I'm trying to emphasize is that there is enough of a following of shmups at least here in Japan to have financial success off a decent port. While in the US and elsewhere, fans have to pull teeth to even get Raiden Fighters Aces, here we don't have to beg for the absolute bare minimum and just accept whatever we get. You should read the Japanese comments on Sakari's blog or on the 2ch threads about the game, they're absolutely vicious. This is a story about ripped-off consumers. You won't find anyone here pleading for the bare minimum, just a solid port.

[Elixir]

Remind me again what adverse effect it has on anything if there's an inferior port of Ketsui available to the larger audience?

A larger audience that won't buy it if it's a) shit or b) lacking tits. You're talking to the division of 5pb who also dealt with this thing. It's a niche genre and has dedicated fans, and they (re: the majority of us) don't want to play a port that's bad when they (or the majority) can play it in the arcade or own the arcade board.

Ketsui is old, it shouldn't be that much of a hassle to get it ported to the 360. 5pb's rep is on the line and their port of DOJBLEX doesn't give anyone any positive thoughts about Ketsui. Thankfully they're not doing Death Smiles, something which I've never played and look forward to trying.

I doubt they'll make the same mistakes again, perhaps they'll even get wise and delay the release for further tweaking. As I stated before, 5pb has (until BL was released) a zero track record with shooting games and or games of this quality and suffice to say anyone thinking there wouldn't be problems has their head in the clouds.

So what, Daioujou BLEX gets the shaft because Ketsui is the be-all end-all perfect shmup that requires a flawless port? What about the people who like DOJBLEX over it? The port is so shoddy, and they're probably going to fix a few things like game overing in practice mode, and menus, but how will they fix the loading times and stuff like the stage 2 slowdown? I'm sure everyone expected problems, but not to this degree. Let's take a look at what 18 hours of playing this shit has taught me, and us all, from turning it on to turning it off:

- Loading times
- Clumsy menus
- BL: In-game slowdown and glitches
- WL: Didn't bother
- X-Mode: Fun adaptation of the original, but Piper renders others useless
- Leaderboards are broken
- Leaderboard toggling is undescribed
- Replays are broken
- Achievements are broken and/or require grinding (Combo Master can be gotten from cranking Hyper and GP Control up, and camping the far right of King Bee until he times out (which is like, a good 5 minutes or more))
- Lacks appropriate options for Practice
- Lacks appropriate options for OPTIONS.
- Practice mode is broken (tells you to sign in after retrying a level, game overs after 3 lives, etc) and severly lacks appropriate options
- Nothing is hinted at being "unlocked" after x amount of hours. The bonus options just randomly appear after playing for awhile, as does X Mode.
- Visually looks like they added a 2xSaI filter to it

And to top it all off, the music cuts out while you're looking at your profile or friends list, or by hitting the guide button. And all of this is with the game already installed. I mean christ, I haven't seen a port as bad as this since.. I don't know, even Mushi was better.

everything we play down to the last pixel,

congrats on not playing DOJBLEX.

[bcass]

And to top it all off, the music cuts out while you're looking at your profile or friends list, or by hitting the guide button.

To be fair, this affects other 360 games too. I suspect it's an issue with the new dash, rather than the game. There have been a lot of new problems introduced since the new dash update.

[adversity1]

(Combo Master can be gotten from cranking Hyper and GP Control up, and camping the far right of King Bee until he times out (which is like, a good 5 minutes or more))

Actually you can't get it this way. Combo Master only counts hits accumulated during levels, not boss fights.

[Elixir]

Are you sure? I could have sworn that it lowered the remaining number of hits to that achievement for me. I guess you can't really tell now though, since you already have that achievement.

Well, I guess stage 2 comes in handy then.

[tommyb]

Goddamn this thread is making me regret ordering DOJBLEX.

Guess I'll wait till it gets here. Come on UPS shipping!

[adversity1]

Are you sure? I could have sworn that it lowered the remaining number of hits to that achievement for me. I guess you can't really tell now though, since you already have that achievement.

Well, I guess stage 2 comes in handy then.

It takes forever, trust me. Most you're going to get out of a run is probably 40k.

[Joe T.]

I don't think it's THAT bad. I've never been a big time Dai Ou Jou fan so I don't know it inside and out but I haven't found anything noticeably shitty in the way this port plays. I'm not bothered by the menus and worrying about practice modes is laughable in my eyes. To be honest I've never been beyond level 4 on one credit playing the pcb or the PS2 port so maybe I'm not an expert but it seems like people are outing themselves as the true virgin masturbators that they are in this thread.

As far as the way it looks. Did everyone expect it to look like it's on a lo res monitor?

[Udderdude]

I'm waiting for the patch to see what they manage to improve, but I am not expecting anything impressive. In fact I'm expecting more problems.

That's pretty depressing :/

For Ketsui 5pb is, as GP put it, not 'the team for the job', this has been proven by the rush/hack job this port is. They should patch DOJ and then either hand Ketsui off to another company or pull Mihara in as a consultant and follow his every order. Incidentally he offered on his blog the other day to help out Sakari with the Ketsui port if he needs it.

Probabally the only thing that's going to save this disaster.

You should read the Japanese comments on Sakari's blog or on the 2ch threads about the game, they're absolutely vicious. This is a story about ripped-off consumers. You won't find anyone here pleading for the bare minimum, just a solid port.

I wish I could read them .. sounds like it'd be more entertaining than playing DOJBLEX.

[adversity1]

I'm not bothered by the menus and worrying about practice modes is laughable in my eyes. To be honest I've never been beyond level 4 on one credit playing the pcb or the PS2 port so maybe I'm not an expert but it seems like people are outing themselves as the true virgin masturbators that they are in this thread.

It's true. I've never had sex. I've been in practice mode my whole life.

[Elixir]

I don't think it's THAT bad. I've never been a big time Dai Ou Jou fan so I don't know it inside and out but I haven't found anything noticeably shitty in the way this port plays. I'm not bothered by the menus and worrying about practice modes is laughable in my eyes. To be honest I've never been beyond level 4 on one credit playing the pcb or the PS2 port so maybe I'm not an expert but it seems like people are outing themselves as the true virgin masturbators that they are in this thread.

[Udderdude]

words

Nice job insulting half the people who posted in this thread. For your next trick, why don't you declare Ikaruga is obviously superior anyway?

[Joe T.]

Elixir, wouldn't it be better to practice the way you were meant to by playing through the whole game?

Seems like a more substantial accomplishment to me anyway.

[Joe T.]

words

Nice job insulting half the people who posted in this thread. For your next trick, why don't you declare Ikaruga is obviously superior anyway?

I'm not sure where you came up with the Ikaruga thing.

Were you insulted?

[jpj]

everyone in this thread bitching about the black label port will still buy the ketsui port, and then bitch about that too see you on page 60

[howmuchkeefe]

There are only a handful of game breaking bugs, and these will probably be patched out of existence before I'm able to make it past stage 4 on one credit.

The load times are irritating, but I can put up with them. I don't really care if they're improved by patches or not.

The only thing that could cause me to rescind my pre-order of Ketsui is the cancellation of the port.

lol at 480p port on a system w/o VGA support and 480i port on a system that has it oob

[Limbrooke]

So what, Daioujou BLEX gets the shaft because Ketsui is the be-all end-all perfect shmup that requires a flawless port? What about the people who like DOJBLEX over it? The port is so shoddy, and they're probably going to fix a few things like game overing in practice mode, and menus, but how will they fix the loading times and stuff like the stage 2 slowdown? I'm sure everyone expected problems, but not to this degree. Let's take a look at what 18 hours of playing this shit has taught me, and us all, from turning it on to turning it off:

- Loading times
- Clumsy menus
- BL: In-game slowdown and glitches
- WL: Didn't bother
- X-Mode: Fun adaptation of the original, but Piper renders others useless
- Leaderboards are broken
- Leaderboard toggling is undescribed
- Replays are broken
- Achievements are broken and/or require grinding (Combo Master can be gotten from cranking Hyper and GP Control up, and camping the far right of King Bee until he times out (which is like, a good 5 minutes or more))
- Lacks appropriate options for Practice
- Lacks appropriate options for OPTIONS.
- Practice mode is broken (tells you to sign in after retrying a level, game overs after 3 lives, etc) and severly lacks appropriate options
- Nothing is hinted at being "unlocked" after x amount of hours. The bonus options just randomly appear after playing for awhile, as does X Mode.
- Visually looks like they added a 2xSaI filter to it

And to top it all off, the music cuts out while you're looking at your profile or friends list, or by hitting the guide button. And all of this is with the game already installed. I mean christ, I haven't seen a port as bad as this since.. I don't know, even Mushi was better.

Don't quote was isn't stated, m'kay? As it stands BL came out before Ketsui, if it was the other way around I still would have said what I said. They're both good games, and again, 5pb being new to this decided on one versus the other for whatever reason and I believed that even before BLEX came out that it would be a learning experience. I also don't see how more than a few points cannot be addressed in the first patch. As I recall the Raiden Fighters Aces patches were quite good and had several improvements however I am aware at the same time that there weren't as many issues as there are with BLEX. The fact patches are a possibility and that it isn't mandatory speaks to some degree that 5pb actually has a mind to solve some issues. They could just as easily do nothing and laugh all the way to the bank.

I hope 5pb learns from this and takes into consideration what needs to be accomplished in the next game. Hey, maybe it will be even worse but then again the outcome doesn't affect me either way seeing as I don't plan to get either game. I doubt this company or in particular the developers are so utterly stupid to make the same mistakes all over again.

Mushi on PS2, better? Hoooo

[Elixir]

Elixir, wouldn't it be better to practice the way you were meant to by playing through the whole game?

Seems like a more substantial accomplishment to me anyway.

...no, not really. If you're stuck on a stage or boss, this is where practice mode shines. Actually, practice modes are one things that PCBs lack, so they're even more important. If you're stuck somewhere, obviously practicing it multiple times will make you better at t.

[hirounder]

Well, Ketsui EX date confirmed on official site.
http://5pb.jp/games/div2/ketsuiex/

[E. Randy Dupre]

everyone in this thread bitching about the black label port will still buy the ketsui port, and then bitch about that too

Guaranteed.

[Elixir]

Well it's possible to counterstop on Hibachi in X Mode, which I managed to figure out by myself. I can't record a run of it, but basically it requires you to get Hibachi down to slightly below half his health, before he shoves out his most brutal attack. In X Mode, when you get him down to a quarter of his health, he shoves out the same attack but bullet eating won't work.

So basically, you camp the top left area and grab hypers with Piper. As soon as your hyper meter runs out, dive for the falling hyper that appears, and hit it. It'll bullet cancel, then you can continue bullet eating. This will raise your hyper meters, and will continue to do so indefinitely. The hypers will continue falling, and you'll be able to continually bullet cancel with the falling hyper/s and continue your chain. I managed a chain of 56500 with this trick. Since the Hibachi fight never ends, you just have to pay attention to your position and his health.

Also I'm pretty sure boss fights' chains also add to Combo Master. That run took a good chunk off what's still remaining for me. I only need that, one which I assume you get from collecting powerups, and a secret achievement.

[Udderdude]

Well it's possible to counterstop on Hibachi in X Mode, which I managed to figure out by myself. I can't record a run of it, but basically it requires you to get Hibachi down to slightly below half his health, before he shoves out his most brutal attack. In X Mode, when you get him down to a quarter of his health, he shoves out the same attack but bullet eating won't work.

So basically, you camp the top left area and grab hypers with Piper. As soon as your hyper meter runs out, dive for the falling hyper that appears, and hit it. It'll bullet cancel, then you can continue bullet eating. This will raise your hyper meters, and will continue to do so indefinitely. The hypers will continue falling, and you'll be able to continually bullet cancel with the falling hyper/s and continue your chain. I managed a chain of 56500 with this trick. Since the Hibachi fight never ends, you just have to pay attention to your position and his health.

Also I'm pretty sure boss fights' chains also add to Combo Master. That run took a good chunk off what's still remaining for me. I only need that, one which I assume you get from collecting powerups, and a secret achievement.

Did you actually manage to counterstop it? How long do you think it would take?

[Plasmo]

I'm pretty sure Hibachi times out after 3-4 mins?

[Elixir]

Oh right, he does expire after awhile. Still, I'm getting 47,000+ chains out of him and that's with the default settings.

[adversity1]

Also I'm pretty sure boss fights' chains also add to Combo Master. T

No, they don't.

[tommyb]

Come onnn.

According to Play-Asia my BLEX shipped yesterday and is now in my area "Out for Delivery".

Impatience sucks.