Prelude to the Apocalypse

[Lemnear]

I would say it was all organized, otherwise he would have died like Kennedy. You know..a martyr for the cause.

[GaijinPunch]

A day for the history books. I despise Trump, but this is not the way. Dems are supposed to be above these types of things. I think Trump pretty much locked up the election tonight. Fuck.

Agree with the first part, but the part about Dems being above this shit, the party of acceptance, etc. etc. That's generally the right's projection of the left. The left have assholes too. Seemingly more and more these days. This doesn't surprise me, although this guys affiliation seems to be gray at best thus far.

[Sima Tuna]

I would say it was all organized, otherwise he would have died like Kennedy. You know..a martyr for the cause.

The shooter wouldn't have died if it was planned. Not even the biggest idiot in the world plans to get killed to raise some dude's ranking in the polls (religions excepted). Furthermore, shooting someone in the ear instead of the head "on purpose" is not exactly an easy feat.

The shot isn't very loud, which is consistent with using an AR-15. 5.56 aka .223 is not a large round. It's dangerous because of how fast it moves, not the size. All guns are loud of course, but that was not any kind of elephant round or magnum. I have shot ARs plenty of times. I wouldn't say you could go without ear protection entirely, but some people probably would.

I think a very, very stupid liberal believed he was "going back in time to kill Hitler before he got started" or some such. He tried to kill Trump and failed, then died and now Trump is going to rebound off this to an easy win. Plenty of hardcore left types have floated the idea of assassinating Trump before, or done some kinda "hint hint" bullshit in their rhetoric, like "why is this guy still walking around alive." And all the hitler rhetoric winds up a certain kind of person.

[Lemnear]

I would say it was all organized, otherwise he would have died like Kennedy. You know..a martyr for the cause.

The shooter wouldn't have died if it was planned. Not even the biggest idiot in the world plans to get killed to raise some dude's ranking in the polls (religions excepted). Furthermore, shooting someone in the ear instead of the head "on purpose" is not exactly an easy feat.

The shot isn't very loud, which is consistent with using an AR-15. 5.56 aka .223 is not a large round. It's dangerous because of how fast it moves, not the size. All guns are loud of course, but that was not any kind of elephant round or magnum. I have shot ARs plenty of times. I wouldn't say you could go without ear protection entirely, but some people probably would.

I think a very, very stupid liberal believed he was "going back in time to kill Hitler before he got started" or some such. He tried to kill Trump and failed, then died and now Trump is going to rebound off this to an easy win. Plenty of hardcore left types have floated the idea of assassinating Trump before, or done some kinda "hint hint" bullshit in their rhetoric, like "why is this guy still walking around alive." And all the hitler rhetoric winds up a certain kind of person.

Are you really sure? there were an avalanche of idiots who stained their criminal records in the name of Trump, perhaps a fanatic sacrificed his life to secure his election maybe. Or he just wanted to kill him. I find it strange that this was possible given how notoriously paranoid America is about attacks, especially in these events.
It's all leading to political fanaticism...U.S. what's happening to you?

[orange808]

Trump and Project 2025 are still a threat to democracy. Biden is still a weak candidate.

I'm not interested in changing the subject or dealing with any Republican pearl clutching about gun violence, because I have a long record of railing against firearms.

So, I'm not interested in any conversation about the registered Republican that started shooting into a crowd, because that's hardly an abnormal sight in America.

Still need a better candidate to beat Trump and better gun control. Yep. This changed nothing.

[neorichieb1971]

If the usa knew what was good for them they would get someone around 40 years of age, not grandpa's.

[Sima Tuna]

If the usa knew what was good for them they would get someone around 40 years of age, not grandpa's.

Would be nice, but that's by design. The boomers refuse to relinquish the slightest hold on power.

[To Far Away Times]

Do you ever feel like you almost won the lottery, but were just one number off?

[GaijinPunch]

If the usa knew what was good for them they would get someone around 40 years of age, not grandpa's.

Bro, read this thread.

Do you ever feel like you almost won the lottery, but were just one number off?

A friend on FB said something like, "if you're celebrating any of this bullshit unfriend me now" and I thought about being the sarcastic asshole I often am and saying, "um, he missed - nobody is celebrating" but I could just see the humor going under everyone's head so refrained. It's FB - not the smartest of the lot, which I guess goes for me as well.

[neorichieb1971]

If the usa knew what was good for them they would get someone around 40 years of age, not grandpa's.

Bro, read this thread.

Do you ever feel like you almost won the lottery, but were just one number off?

A friend on FB said something like, "if you're celebrating any of this bullshit unfriend me now" and I thought about being the sarcastic asshole I often am and saying, "um, he missed - nobody is celebrating" but I could just see the humor going under everyone's head so refrained. It's FB - not the smartest of the lot, which I guess goes for me as well.

I think you've been round British people too long to have that kind of humor. Brits laugh off most things unless its personal. To us British this shooting was just another day in your paradise country.

If this happened in the UK, as a collective of people we would make sure actions were taken so it wouldn't happen again. Americans seem to have the approach of the shooter was killed so thats that.

My take on it, why the hell were spectators able to see the shooter before he shot and the special services did not? Why are Americans pro Biden or pro Trump, is it a true belief that one of them keeps the lights on and the other keeps the lights off?

My son lives in FL USA and looking at his wage/outgoings I can see the problem. He works 40 hours a week and has nothing left afterwards. That is a major concern to me, albeit I feel the UK is in that boat as well for young folk. That is all that needs to be fixed for most people, the cost of living. Once you sort that little cookie out, everything else falls into place.

[Air Master Burst]

If this happened in the UK, as a collective of people we would make sure actions were taken so it wouldn't happen again. Americans seem to have the approach of the shooter was killed so thats that.

No, Americans have the approach of "even a candidate for president can get shot at any time so you better be armed too!" Cynical, but not wrong. As an openly queer person in the midwest I've stayed armed, and a lot of other queers have been looking for help doing the same lately.

but I could just see the humor going under everyone's head

I think you meant a bit to the left of everyone's head.

[To Far Away Times]

Justice Cannon/Trump team has dismissed the charges in the stolen documents case. Apparently every special council since 1999 is illegitimate. Unbelievable.

I would much rather Trump be held to our lawful standards, rather than a continued lowering our standards to meet his.

[Sengoku Strider]

If he wins you know she's getting promoted. Loyal soldiers are a big deal to him.

[orange808]

My response above should have been the White House response. Word for word. The Trump voters and registered Republicans are already dug in. They cannot be swayed. We're playing to the swing voters.

Why is there never any strategy?

All this "unite" bullshit is a waste of time. The shooter is a registered Republican. You immediately take that and run. After that, you immediately pivot to gun control and "just another shooting". That's what this was. Another Republican shooting.

Then, you start talking about the victim and how Trump's dangerous gun policy got an innocent person killed.

I don't understand why that wasn't the first immediate response. You can't call up Donald Trump, ask if he's okay, and join in this weak hand wringing and apologizing. This was a direct result of right wing policies.

Is it the "time for politics"? You betcha.

Instead, Biden jumped in with the virtue signaling. He couldn't wait to change the subject. He's using this to stay in the race. Biden also let Trump become a living martyr by refusing to blame him for his own gun policies; firearm laws that will change later on after the right takes full control and realizes they need security. It will be a dystopian combination of a Christian Iran, Russia, and China.

[Sima Tuna]

My son lives in FL USA and looking at his wage/outgoings I can see the problem. He works 40 hours a week and has nothing left afterwards. That is a major concern to me, albeit I feel the UK is in that boat as well for young folk. That is all that needs to be fixed for most people, the cost of living. Once you sort that little cookie out, everything else falls into place.

Again, that's all by design. Not only do the politicians not want to sort that out, but they'll do anything they can to maintain that result. The people who rule this country do not want the middle class to have any wealth or power.

[neorichieb1971]

My son lives in FL USA and looking at his wage/outgoings I can see the problem. He works 40 hours a week and has nothing left afterwards. That is a major concern to me, albeit I feel the UK is in that boat as well for young folk. That is all that needs to be fixed for most people, the cost of living. Once you sort that little cookie out, everything else falls into place.

Again, that's all by design. Not only do the politicians not want to sort that out, but they'll do anything they can to maintain that result. The people who rule this country do not want the middle class to have any wealth or power.

The reason the cost of living is out of control in the UK is because shelter, energy and food have been left for the markets to dictate the prices. Whilst food is somewhat under control its still higher than it should be. Energy in the UK is derived from foreign countries controlling a lot of it and shelter is totally out of control. At the point where properties went over the 40 hour a week average wage, which is traditionally what kept peoples dreams alive, they left it to the markets and now only major investor types can afford them. They still sell of course, but to the wrong people. Certainly not your average 40 hour a week folk.

I believe the USA is the same on shelter, which is bonkers, as the country has billions of acres of land idling doing nothing. Just build more homes and make sure the builders don't milk it for all its worth. I thought government was in place to make sure you have a fair system. What we need is someone in power who can see these things and put them right.

Its not in the interest of the USA or UK to have such a model of living. You have sexy women out there wanting men who earn 6 figures a year. Who can blame them? No point being with a partner whose date is a Mcdonalds meal at home in front of netflix.

[To Far Away Times]

The reasons for homelessness issue in the US are vast but a couple of the big ones are:

1. Generational wealth is tied in property values. Homes are treated as investments and values climb higher than inflation and are a store of value.
2. People who rent are continually getting poorer relative to home owners who build equity. More housing is concentrated among fewer people as existing home owners buy more homes with the money saved.
3. NIMBYism. If almost all of your wealth came from your home, it makes sense to fight to keep homeless shelters and food banks away from your backyard.

I used to work in the public parks department, and two of the parks I took care of had homeless encampments on them. I've been around quite a few homeless people, and I knew some of them by name. One common thing I saw from almost all of them is that many said they would never work again and they were happy with their situation. Now, I think that was a form of coping with the situation, but I did get the sense that many of them had "given up." One homeless guy I knew was particularly friendly, seemed like a good dude down on some bad luck. He swore he was clean and just needed to land a job to get out of his situation. I used to show up in the park around the same time every afternoon. Well, one day I got there early at 7:00 AM and he was high as a kite with a needle in his arm. Another common thing I heard, was many of them would tell me they had everything going right in life but got addicted to opiates through a medical procedure. I had one dose of vicodin one time during surgery, and it was so damn good I had to make sure I never let another doctor prescribe it for me, because I could see what path that would lead down. And they used to hand those things out like candy.

Another thing is that the US conservative movement is convinced you get to your place in life through hard work and pulling your self up by your bootstraps. If someone is homeless, they deserve to be homeless. But the truth of it is that the older generation that is wealthy now got there by working at a grocery store and riding a population boom and housing bubble to generational wealth. And they pulled the ladder up behind them.

Here in Oregon, we have our struggles with the homeless. We built a new jail a little while back as one of our many wasteful pet projects, but didn't actually have a need or the population to fill it, so it was never used. The jail just sat empty for years before being scheduled for demolition. One suggestion at the time was to use it as a homeless shelter. But the optics of using prison cells without doors as "rooms" were just a bit too much. So we leveled it. Money that could have gone to the homelessness issue was instead spent on a building that was never used. The building couldn't be used for homeless people. A total waste of money for everyone but the contractors.

[neorichieb1971]

The reasons for homelessness issue in the US are vast but a couple of the big ones are:

1. Generational wealth is tied in property values. Homes are treated as investments and values climb higher than inflation and are a store of value.
2. People who rent are continually getting poorer relative to home owners who build equity. More housing is concentrated among fewer people as existing home owners buy more homes with the money saved.
3. NIMBYism. If almost all of your wealth came from your home, it makes sense to fight to keep homeless shelters and food banks away from your backyard.

I used to work in the public parks department, and two of the parks I took care of had homeless encampments on them. I've been around quite a few homeless people, and I knew some of them by name. One common thing I saw from almost all of them is that many said they would never work again and they were happy with their situation. Now, I think that was a form of coping with the situation, but I did get the sense that many of them had "given up." One homeless guy I knew was particularly friendly, seemed like a good dude down on some bad luck. He swore he was clean and just needed to land a job to get out of his situation. I used to show up in the park around the same time every afternoon. Well, one day I got there early at 7:00 AM and he was high as a kite with a needle in his arm. Another common thing I heard, was many of them would tell me they had everything going right in life but got addicted to opiates through a medical procedure. I had one dose of vicodin one time during surgery, and it was so damn good I had to make sure I never let another doctor prescribe it for me, because I could see what path that would lead down. And they used to hand those things out like candy.

Another thing is that the US conservative movement is convinced you get to your place in life through hard work and pulling your self up by your bootstraps. If someone is homeless, they deserve to be homeless. But the truth of it is that the older generation that is wealthy now got there by working at a grocery store and riding a population boom and housing bubble to generational wealth. And they pulled the ladder up behind them.

Here in Oregon, we have our struggles with the homeless. We built a new jail a little while back as one of our many wasteful pet projects, but didn't actually have a need or the population to fill it, so it was never used. The jail just sat empty for years before being scheduled for demolition. One suggestion at the time was to use it as a homeless shelter. But the optics of using prison cells without doors as "rooms" were just a bit too much. So we leveled it. Money that could have gone to the homelessness issue was instead spent on a building that was never used. The building couldn't be used for homeless people. A total waste of money for everyone but the contractors.

Everything you wrote hits home hard, but it screams of lack of government intervention. To me, its like the police watching a robbery and just letting it happen. Traditionally, historically and currently our education system still pushes the agenda of getting grades, getting an education to serve as a 40 hour a week servant to society. If the reward at the end of that is just paying bills or being homeless the system is being manipulated, un governed and abused by those who find themselves on top.

Lets say 75% of the USA population are struggling.. and 75% of the vote goes to Trump. Is Trump going to REPRESENT that electorate? Because in the UK, the government has never pulled certain levers it has control over. It will push and pull the interest rate metric, it will push and pull the minimum wage lever, it will try to control immigration etc. But the one thing it NEVER does, is keep the basic essentials affordable.

In every walk of life, it works best where balance in the force is kept relative to society's needs. In this current world, society is left to rot, is vastly unrepresented and a lot of this comes from shareholding companies who squeeze society as hard as possible for a dividend profit. And it is those villians in society who buy all the homes.

To me, the only way to get the economy booming again, is to make things affordable.

[orange808]

To me, the only way to get the economy booming again, is to make things affordable.

What would you suggest? The two biggest western economic booms for the working class were the postwar period and the wake of the plague.

Can't reproduce either of those.

Slow growth is normal and the postwar boom is officially over. Demographic growth is all we have left and that's a double-edged sword. Crystalized hoardes of capital is the natural historical norm and a return to modest growth was inevitable. We're going back to normal. Sucks, huh?

Addressing the issue would be an unprecedented technology breakthrough for human beings. So, what do you suggest? Given that all human beings are hopelessly corrupt and evil, I have no hope. All humans do is kill, rape, cheat, lie, and steal. Anything we suggest will be packaged as an elaborate scheme and used for grift and corruption. The programs or policies we want won't be implemented; all we'll get is grift.

[neorichieb1971]

To me, the only way to get the economy booming again, is to make things affordable.

What would you suggest? The two biggest western economic booms for the working class were the postwar period and the wake of the plague.

Can't reproduce either of those.

Slow growth is normal and the postwar boom is officially over. Demographic growth is all we have left and that's a double-edged sword. Crystalized hoardes of capital is the natural historical norm and a return to modest growth was inevitable. We're going back to normal. Sucks, huh?

Addressing the issue would be an unprecedented technology breakthrough for human beings. So, what do you suggest? Given that all human beings are hopelessly corrupt and evil, I have no hope. All humans do is kill, rape, cheat, lie, and steal. Anything we suggest will be packaged as an elaborate scheme and used for grift and corruption. The programs or policies we want won't be implemented; all we'll get is grift.

Your mindset is locked into ungoverned capitalism. You just make rules for homes, like subsidize smaller homes by offsetting the price against the bigger homes so starter homes are affordable.
Energy - Put caps on profits
Food - Make sure that certain products fall into the category of affordable.

Of course, your argument would be "thats not the way its done". Well it does need radical rethinking. You cannot change, without making change.

[orange808]

Your mindset is locked into ungoverned capitalism.

On the contrary, my mindset is informed by history that predates our current implementations of western capitalism.

In our current era, no "communist" governments rose to power by saying "I'm going to fuck you over". It's always some "people's revolution" bullshit. Even when governments (rarely) acted with good intentions, it was eventually derailed by corruption and greed.

You're suggesting policies that have never been implemented with success in human history. I don't believe human beings can implement them, because that would require discipline and empathy. We don't have that.

Capitalism as we know it is just another vehicle to service the aristocracy. Same as it ever was. How did capitalism win? Luck. The postwar boom delivered guaranteed growth and capitalism rewards growth.

My question wasn't rhetorical. I really have no idea what would work and zero faith.

[neorichieb1971]

Your mindset is locked into ungoverned capitalism.

On the contrary, my mindset is informed by history that predates our current implementations of western capitalism.

In our current era, no "communist" governments rose to power by saying "I'm going to fuck you over". It's always some "people's revolution" bullshit. Even when governments (rarely) acted with good intentions, it was eventually derailed by corruption and greed.

You're suggesting policies that have never been implemented with success in human history. I don't believe human beings can implement them, because that would require discipline and empathy. We don't have that.

Capitalism as we know it is just another vehicle to service the aristocracy. Same as it ever was. How did capitalism win? Luck. The postwar boom delivered guaranteed growth and capitalism rewards growth.

My question wasn't rhetorical. I really have no idea what would work and zero faith.

Capitalism is like some kind of untamed beast right now. There are casualties. You can leave it as is and let people suffer or you can change the system. To me, governments are in place to police policies that make the world a better place. If they can start wars and destroy everything they can certainly do what I am proposing.

What is tomorrow a country starts charging an breathing air tax? Or bottles of water start costing $50? There has to be a sensible governing body in place to protect that from happening. To me, you apply capitalism to things like fancy cars, fancy homes, fancy phones, because nobody really needs those things, tax the hell out of it, profit from it, do what you like with it. But leave the fundamental things alone. You cannot have a no holds barred approach to society. Well you can, but be prepared to be running an absolute misery of a country.

[orange808]

What is tomorrow a country starts charging an breathing air tax? Or bottles of water start costing $50?

Both. Coming soon to a burgerland near you thanks to SCOTUS.

First, you roll back environmental enforcement and do it like China. Rich people will move to distant exclusive areas and install expensive air filtering systems in their compounds. I hate that you used the right wing dog whistle word "tax". It's a situation where rich people get clean air and everyone else doesn't. It's actually because of deregulation and no taxes related to the environment. It's about no taxes and maximum profit.

Deregulation will also lead to more polluted water. Rich people will pay to access a private limited supply of clean water. Everyone else will drink pollution. $50 clean water? Probably.

That extends to food as well. Rich people will have quality safe food. Everyone else will eat polluted, contaminated, and sometimes deliberately poisoned food. Same thing as eating in China. They don't regulate shit.

[neorichieb1971]

What is tomorrow a country starts charging an breathing air tax? Or bottles of water start costing $50?

Both. Coming soon to a burgerland near you thanks to SCOTUS.

First, you roll back environmental enforcement and do it like China. Rich people will move to distant exclusive areas and install expensive air filtering systems in their compounds. I hate that you used the right wing dog whistle word "tax". It's a situation where rich people get clean air and everyone else doesn't. It's actually because of deregulation and no taxes related to the environment. It's about no taxes and maximum profit.

Deregulation will also lead to more polluted water. Rich people will pay to access a private limited supply of clean water. Everyone else will drink pollution. $50 clean water? Probably.

That extends to food as well. Rich people will have quality safe food. Everyone else will eat polluted, contaminated, and sometimes deliberately poisoned food. Same thing as eating in China. They don't regulate shit.

You make for a bleak future and sprinkle inevitability all over it. The future you paint will bring a sense of hopelessness to the masses. You cannot make people work for a living unless there is reward to do it.

I can only visualize what I would the world to look like, maybe you can tell me what your visualize an ideal world to look like, instead of painting a picture of dread that no electorate would vote for. I'm sure Trumps slogan "Make America great again" isn't in any way affiliated with your vision. If you had Trump's power what would you do with it?

[To Far Away Times]

One of the things that fucked up our economy:

Henry Ford was the greatest CEO of all time and second place isn't terribly close. He invented the assembly line, and brought cars to the masses. He paid double what other automobile companies did, and made only 13x his lowest paid employee. He gave a considerable amount of the Ford Motor Company's money to philanthropy. The Dodge brothers (yes, from the car company known for making low quality vehicles), were part owners of Ford at the time and thought Henry Ford should be enriching the owners instead of the employees and charities. They sued, and the court ruled that a corporation's obligation is to their shareholders and companies are required to maximize shareholder value. One of the most devastating court rulings of all time.

Reagan famously said "Greed is good" and the CEO class took the message and ran absolutely wild with it. Today, the average Fortune 500 CEO makes over 350x their lowest paid employee's annual wage. Absolutely disgusting behavior.

[BulletMagnet]

To me, its like the police watching a robbery and just letting it happen.

That's precisely what's happening, because the robbers are openly giving the cops a cut of the haul. I don't know what the rules governing political contributions and "gifts" are in your neck of the woods, but here bribery has essentially been legal for quite some time, and corporatist court decisions like Citizens United and (just last month) Snyder have made it even worse.

You're suggesting policies that have never been implemented with success in human history.

If memory serves in the aftermath of World War II Truman put hard-and-fast price caps on various goods to ensure that companies couldn't use postwar inflation as cover to raise prices even further, as they've been explicitly doing post-Covid. The top federal tax rate under Eisenhower was 90 percent, essentially a wealth cap. Stuff like this can and has been done, though decades of conservatives branding nearly any attempt by the government to improve the lives of its citizens (y'know, the reason government is supposed to exist) as the looming return of the USSR makes it considerably more difficult these days.

[orange808]

You cannot make people work for a living unless there is reward to do it.

China would like a word.

Honestly, that is exactly what's happening all over the globe as we speak. There are honest people playing by the rules all over the planet in the third world and most of them will never get anything for their efforts. Of course, they wouldn't stay honest if someone let them in the aristocrat club.

In America, they are rolling towards a toxic dystopian brew of authoritarian Chinese kleptocracy and Iranian flavored theocracy (with a different magic book). I never said I was happy about it.

China really isn't capitalist, by the way. They are what Trump wants to emulate.

Capitalism is just a convenient vehicle for corruption right now. The root of the problem is the aristocrats and they have existed since Hammurabi. I think the Chinese model of an authoritarian surveillance and police state with a planned economy is the ultimate goal of the real masters of the right wing. They intend to completely dismantle democracy and "free markets". They may or may not leave a facade. (And they're going to eventually take away all the freedoms these dumb American rubes think they are protecting. It will be ironic when they start taking guns away.)

[Air Master Burst]

You're suggesting policies that have never been implemented with success in human history. I don't believe human beings can implement them, because that would require discipline and empathy. We don't have that.

I get that shit seems bad right now, but try to keep some perspective. There are plenty of good people in the world! Fatalism isn't terribly useful, so maybe try to redirect all this negative energy? Therapy helps some people. Maybe smoke some weed and watch Mr. Rogers? It just kinda seems like you're doom spiraling lately, and I worry you might need some self-care.

[orange808]

I get that shit seems bad right now, but try to keep some perspective.

Rome and Egypt lasted a lot longer than western democracy; inequality and corruption was absolutely rampant. Granted, they had fewer resources and technologies, but there was almost zero effort to address social issues. The only booms for working people came in the wake of "shocks". That's code for unspeakable amounts of death.

Are people genetically different in some significant way right now? No.

[Air Master Burst]

If you wanna get that stupidly macro with it, humanity never would have evolved as the dominant species on the planet without empathy and cooperation.

I'm not gonna patronize you by telling you to cheer up, but you should strongly consider figuring out a way to redirect all this negative energy. It's bad for the soul.