The BIG thread of Shmup grievances.

[Illyrian]

do you actually try to point blank everything you can? It's really more easy if you destroy everything quickly with the lock shots and to do that you must memorize enemy positioning and pointblank acordingly.

Be daring, you have to be extremely agressive to beat this game.

Yeah, I know? I'm fully aware of how the scoring system works and that you need to speed kill stuff. That doesn't mean the game isn't still TOO FUCKING HARD. I've put about 20 hours into it and after lots of structured practice looking at specifics I still can't really get anywhere. I personally just find it a very frustrating game

[Deca]

Honestly I don't really enjoy ketsui either. 1-3 begins to strain me but it's 1-4 and 1-5 that kill my motivation to work on the game. Ships feel slow and forced point blanking and constant aggressive play make learning tedious. I also feel much more prone to stupid mistakes due to all the weird patterns, and I find myself letting even the second stage get away from me and put me in a corner from time to time.

The thing is, there was a time when I claimed that DOJ was too difficult for me to enjoy at all and now it's just about all I've been playing. I'm sure if I took a more structured approach to learning ketsui I could sort it out and it would probably be good for my general skill set as well.

[Obscura]

I must be weird; I actually find Ketsui 1-3 to be easier than Ketsui 1-2, aside from the bosses of course.

It is certainly a challenging game, though; I'd have no qualms in saying it's harder than DOJBL. I don't think it's as hard as Illyrian is saying it is, though; I've made it to the game's last stage, and if I can do that, certainly anyone else here can clear it with just a bit of effort.

Deca, given that you like type A in the DDPs, I think you'd do better with Panzer Jager than Tiger Schwartz. Tiger feels slow as hell, sure, but Panzer moves at a pretty good speed for the game. Also, Panzer's shot isn't a terrible way to get out of "oh shit, I got pushed to the bottom of the screen and have no bombs" situations.

[dunpeal2064]

I think 1-3 is so much harder if you are trying to get that extend. I fucking hate that midboss.

I also agree that Ketsui is much harder than DOJ, at least in the first loop. Ketsui's bullets are so hard to predict.

[Obscura]

A bit of savestate practice and Vinogradov won't be a big problem. There's a kinda specific "route" you need to follow to get it done, but once you know that route, you probably won't ever die before the last "pink and blue spirals going opposite directions" attack again.

[dunpeal2064]

I already don't die before that spiral attack, its that attack that always gets me. Either that or I miss one of the turrets up top.

My shmup Grievance: My 360 went RROD, so no more Futari, Ketsui, or Pork/Sweets. However, I should have enough cash to get a cool pcb after selling the games off.

[Illyrian]

The midboss is a pussy, it's everything else that's the problem on 1-3.

[dunpeal2064]

I think I just get nervous when I know an extend is on the line. I actually don't have many issues with 1-3 other than chocking on the extend. Happens to me in any game with a fixed extend.

[O. Van Bruce]

If you die, you will probably get the extend using the invincibility... if you get the extend without dying is a plus...

It's perfect.

[Emuser]

I've got it but haven't spent much time playing it.

Well you need to more, its one of Cave's best and most relaxing things they've ever created once you get into the right groove for it. It will sensory overload your head with awesomeness

[Sapz]

TLB Aki's final in Mushihimesama Ultra (specifically 1.5). Whoever thought this attack was a good idea seriously needs a slap. I think I could clear the game up to that point with some practice, but this attack feels absolutely unreasonable, not least because you can't even hold shot to move slowly for a while after dying or bombing unless you want to eat a second wall of reflected bullets from the shield.

[Chaos Phoenixma]

Does this particular trick in this vid not work on 1.5?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fblc0PRc8Po

But yeah, that attack is a pretty legit complaint. Or is the attack just worse in general?

[CloudyMusic]

Going strong on a great run in score attack mode, well on the way to a new high score. And then...disconnected from Xbox Live for a moment so I get booted back to the menu.

I'm starting to think I don't care enough about online leaderboards to risk playing in Score Attack mode during peak hours.

[DrTrouserPlank]

Well Mushihimesama is pissing me off no end now and I've had it less than a week. I'm already at the stage where I'm turning the console off mid-run on almost every sitting.

[Zorator]

Well Mushihimesama is pissing me off no end now and I've had it less than a week. I'm already at the stage where I'm turning the console off mid-run on almost every sitting.

What games can you get all the way through without turning off?

[Deca]

I just got screwed out of my personal best score and what was most likely going to be my first time clearing the 1st loop of DOJBL. Fucking MAME motherfucking windowjumped me in the tail end of stage 5 with a hyper, 2 bombs, and 2 lives remaining. There was no way to recover by the time I got the window active again.

Is there any fucking way to stop it from pulling this bullshit, this is the only computer it's ever been an issue on. It brings up the MAME browser window and selects it completely at random while playing games.

[AntiFritz]

Well Mushihimesama is pissing me off no end now and I've had it less than a week. I'm already at the stage where I'm turning the console off mid-run on almost every sitting.

No offense or anything, but why do you bother playing them then...

[DrTrouserPlank]

Well Mushihimesama is pissing me off no end now and I've had it less than a week. I'm already at the stage where I'm turning the console off mid-run on almost every sitting.

No offense or anything, but why do you bother playing them then...

Because the gameplay itself is good. The problem is always the unrealistic expectation of clearing the whole game in 1 credit that leads to frustration.

[trap15]

Unrealistic because it's one of CAVE's easiest 1cc's? Makes sense.

[DrTrouserPlank]

Unrealistic because it's one of CAVE's easiest 1cc's? Makes sense.

I'm sure it is, but that doesn't make it any more likely because the odds are still massively against you.

Like all their games, you could have every level completely mastered and still never manage to clear the whole game in one run. A 1cc is just a probabilistic outcome. The control you have over it past a certain point of mastery is limited to say the least.

I'd play novice modes if they,

1) Weren't so unsatisfying.
and
2) Helped you to get better until you were ready to tackle normal.

Unfortunately they are, and they don't; and that's why I'm still trying to achieve the impossible.

[dunpeal2064]

Which shmup have you mastered each stage in?

If the answer is none, (and it most definitely is), then you are yet again just talking out of your ass.

[O. Van Bruce]

I can picture DTP Trembling like an inocent loli every time he plays a shmup... maybe that's why he can't 1cc any game.

[BPzeBanshee]

I just got screwed out of my personal best score and what was most likely going to be my first time clearing the 1st loop of DOJBL. Fucking MAME motherfucking windowjumped me in the tail end of stage 5 with a hyper, 2 bombs, and 2 lives remaining. There was no way to recover by the time I got the window active again.

Is there any fucking way to stop it from pulling this bullshit, this is the only computer it's ever been an issue on. It brings up the MAME browser window and selects it completely at random while playing games.

I've noticed this on certain machines too with various versions of MAME. I'd first be checking the computer you're on - it might be a cunt of an admin remotely doing it to ruin your game if you're on a school machine. Other than that I have no clue - could never figure out the source myself.

[DrTrouserPlank]

Which shmup have you mastered each stage in?

Futari (completely)
AKS (aside from the last two bosses who are completely unplayable)
Deathsmiles (see above)
Mushihimesama (about as much as I'm going to)

[AntiFritz]

How have you NOT 1cc'd deathsmiles...

[Paradigm]

Which shmup have you mastered each stage in?

Futari (completely)

Right, you've completely mastered Futari Original yet haven't even 1CC'd it.

Incredible arrogance as well as ignorance... nice.

[stryc9]

Which shmup have you mastered each stage in?

Futari (completely)
AKS (aside from the last two bosses who are completely unplayable)
Deathsmiles (see above)
Mushihimesama (about as much as I'm going to)

I would be drawing the line at using the term 'mastered' in this context as it suggests you have an optimized scoring route for each stage in the games you listed.

Dude I know you've been to the last boss on all these games (except Mushi?), you're just having trouble closing the deal and this stems from your lack of consistency in any given run.

I sympathize with you in a sense, because I realize that within the confines of this forum things like 1CCs are understated in terms of how difficult they actually are, even the so called 'easy' ones. Outside this forum, casual gamers etc - your skills probably far outrank them, and would easily be above average.

I'm pretty sure I recall you saying you could no-miss a lot of stages in these games in practice, but now its time to pull it all together in a consistent run.

It's not like you can't make a couple of mistakes in the games listed, either. They afford you that liberty and hand out one ups etc that should offset any silly mechanical errors you potentially make.

[DrTrouserPlank]

Another mid-session shut down. Third or forth of the day I think. That's pretty impressive.

These games are just completely rigged. Absolutely and categorically bullshit. I'd go off on a rant but I've said it all before. Great games; Shitty difficulty pretty much sums it up. Infuriating luck-based time-sinks is equally apt.

You could literally waste a lifetime trying to fluke a clear on these and never manage it. All the practice in the world isn't going to change the fact that you make mistakes, and with so many opportunities to do so you are aiming for an outcome that is probabilistically close to impossible.

Apparently I'm the only person in the world who isn't able to flawlessly execute all the sections that he can actually clear every time. Everyone else never dies to random shots, and once they've learnt a section, they never lose a single life to it ever again.

What a load of crap.

[dunpeal2064]

What a load of crap.

Now THAT I agree with.

Oh, and no one else dies to random shots because there aren't random shots, you idiot.

For having mastered these games, how is it you suck at them so bad?

its 5 stages! You do realize people loop 7 stage games right? And you think building consistency for a 5 stage game on its easiest mode is complete luck-based impossible you-could-try-your-entire-life-and-never-succeed bullshit?

If you make a mistake, fucking bomb! Or lose a life if you are out of bombs. You must make at least 10 mistakes per run, which is 2 mistakes per level... which is far FAR from mastery

YOU are getting lucky to even get as far as you do. If this were Raiden II, you'd probably never make it past stage 2.

[mesh control]

lol, l2p, lol, qft, etc.