Why shmups are such a niche genre

[Obiwanshinobi]

Looking more like films doesn't make games more immersive in my book. I found the original Fallout more immersive than every polygonal cRPG I played (except for Gothic, that is). Action games don't get any more immersive than Super Metroid, and so on, and so on.
As a matter of fact, the more complex graphics are, the more I feel like nitpicking, which doesn't help the immersion.

[PROMETHEUS]

Looking more like films doesn't make games more immersive in my book. I found the original Fallout more immersive than every polygonal cRPG I played (except for Gothic, that is). Action games don't get any more immersive than Super Metroid, and so on, and so on.
As a matter of fact, the more complex graphics are, the more I feel like nitpicking, which doesn't help the immersion.

I disagree with this. I think Dead Space or Devil May Cry are a lot more immersive than Super Metroid ! And that is indeed, thanks to great 3D graphics / camera / presentation / scenery design / sound / good voice acting, etc.

Shmups have poor immersion, and I agree immersion is one of the big qualities most people look for in games, so I guess it contributes to making them impopular.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Well, one dude on certain forum stated that "PC games are more immersive than console games because you are closer to the screen". By this logic TV would be more immersive than cinema. Apparently different people have different standards in this regard. Why do I consider Thief II: The Metal Age the most immersive FPP I played? Because of its 2000's graphics? Hell no. You see, I played it with decent headphones and hardware sound acceleration, alone in a dark room. That, gentlemen, was really something no "survival horror" recreated for me (and I usually play those with decent headphones on, alone in a dark room). Why do I find Zanac Special Version immersive? Because of its abstract, barebones graphics, puny chiptunes and mesmerising gameplay, no less. I'd rather have a game suggesting things than depicting them in a "photorealistic" manner. That's what I, personally, find immersive.
Immersion is not something you can estimate the way you can estimate resolution or antialiasing.

[xris]

Well, one dude on certain forum stated that "PC games are more immersive than console games because you are closer to the screen". By this logic TV would be more immersive than cinema.

I think you got this backward, in the theatre all you see is the screen, 'making it closer'. At home there is allot more in your field of vision when watching TV, leading to distractions.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Puny chiptunes.

Well, one dude on certain forum stated that "PC games are more immersive than console games because you are closer to the screen". By this logic TV would be more immersive than cinema.

I think you got this backward, in the theatre all you see is the screen, 'making it closer'. At home there is allot more in your field of vision when watching TV, leading to distractions.

My story with this-gen console gaming was with a massive HDTV being visually bigger than any other display I've ever played on at home (in the arcades a Virtua Cop cab had arguably bigger screen, but I'd preferred Metal Slug on a CRT anyway).
And no, sheer size of the screen being greater didn't make for deeper immersion in my case.

[brentsg]

I disagree with this. I think Dead Space or Devil May Cry are a lot more immersive than Super Metroid ! And that is indeed, thanks to great 3D graphics / camera / presentation / scenery design / sound / good voice acting, etc.

Shmups have poor immersion, and I agree immersion is one of the big qualities most people look for in games, so I guess it contributes to making them impopular.

I think if you define immersion as environmental, as in you get lost IN the atmosphere of the game.. much like you do with a movie.. then certainly things like Dead Space are much more immersive than a shmup.

If you define immersion as the experience where your world falls away and you just get lost in the game and play, then I think shmups are good in this regard. They leave very little opportunity for you to ponder the challenges and stresses in your life while you play. This is one of the things I enjoy about them. Overriding stress and worry from life can bleed into a movie experience, much like it can a FPS type game experience. However there's very little opportunity for this to happen with a shmup.

[Evilmaxwar]

Well, one dude on certain forum stated that "PC games are more immersive than console games because you are closer to the screen". By this logic TV would be more immersive than cinema.

I think you got this backward, in the theatre all you see is the screen, 'making it closer'. At home there is allot more in your field of vision when watching TV, leading to distractions.

Imagine playing a game like R-type in a theater

Now that would be immersive !

[Frederik]

Man, I keep misreading these thread titles.

"Why shmups are such a nice genre"
"What game spanked your interest in shooters?"

[Despatche]

That first one really wouldn't be much worse of a thread. Should be sticky material too.

[R-Gray 1]

My Basic english makes me think people here is worry about shmups life in the videogame industry and Is Understandable because i saw gameplays about Ps3 popular games in this times

But we will be able to play again our favourite games ....to enjoy again that difficult and that gr8 music

and cmon....im sure new sequels of our fav shmups will appear, not much as before but they will appear....(.i hope some day will appear Axelay 2 )

Is good exist shump fans to show videogames producers shmups are nice genre

shmups keeps the essence of the videogames.


Note: thnks god i enjoyed Atari-Nintendo-Snes-Ps1-Ps2.....great shmups times and im still playing.( Gradius V for example)

[neorichieb1971]

Cave can hardly convince themselves to release outside of Japan or release constant region free material. How is a genre supposed to get mainstream when the companies making the games pussy foot around with it.

The general public see shmups as old school, the industry see's the shmups genre as old school. Its only when you sit down and play the games that you realize there is a huge gameplay potential left in it.

But the main reason its niche is in the dressing. You just can't 3D a shmup and make it better. The reverse is more than likely true. If you could dress up a shmup to be like Rez but more super defined then I think that would start a new generation. I think if you invited 100 people to play a shmup, only 2% would take up the genre seriously.

People love games where just dedicating time to it gives rewards (Facebook games anyone?). If shmups had that sort of interface/reward system I believe quite a lot of people would play them. Its got to be better than farmville!!!

[exquisite_torture]

People have tried. Play Vanquish. Even that is perceived as 'niche.'

[R-Gray 1]

Shmups never were the most popular genre ( except in Atari times)

So the solution would be the evolution of Shmups...but that maybe means simulation?

i think shmups always going to represents part of the old school games in this times.

[Drachenherz]

Cave can hardly convince themselves to release outside of Japan or release constant region free material. How is a genre supposed to get mainstream when the companies making the games pussy foot around with it.

The general public see shmups as old school, the industry see's the shmups genre as old school. Its only when you sit down and play the games that you realize there is a huge gameplay potential left in it.

But the main reason its niche is in the dressing. You just can't 3D a shmup and make it better. The reverse is more than likely true. If you could dress up a shmup to be like Rez but more super defined then I think that would start a new generation. I think if you invited 100 people to play a shmup, only 2% would take up the genre seriously.

People love games where just dedicating time to it gives rewards (Facebook games anyone?). If shmups had that sort of interface/reward system I believe quite a lot of people would play them. Its got to be better than farmville!!!

Good points there. Hmmm... Motivation-wise, I think Crimzon Clover does quite a good job with its built-in shop system. A good thing is that you don't have continues from the get-go, so you have to earn them. Earning the necessary stars for the shop is quite satisfying for me. Because the stars are important for scoring anyway, you practically get the necessary stars for the shop "en passant" while playing, so the game does reward somehow by just playing it. Even if you're dabbling around in the first stage you'll get some stars, so in a way, your mere playtime is rewarded.

And what's more, the shop system has the potential that one really wants to learn the game and delve deeper into the game. Even to learn the scoring-mechanics etc. in order to get more stars etc. etc..

Although in my opinion, shmups will always be a niche more or less, but with efforts like Crimzon and other games, maybe this niche can be opened up just a bit.

Another 2 rappen from me.

[Evilmaxwar]

Lets face it, Shmups as we know them are probably doomed to stay a niche genre, for all the 42 pages worth of reasons mentioned above... That being said, i believe there will likely always be a healthy enough fan base for it to thrive even if limited to the underground. I think there is no substitute for Shmups.
Now i did not read the whole 42 pages of this thread but one point i have not seen mentioned before is the fact that nowadays you can produce a great Shmup on a limited budget. Most successful mainstream games are multi-million$ projects. On the Shmup Scene however you see high quality modern masterpieces being released out of nowhere. Just think of some of these Doujin shmups. I read somewhere the Touhou serie is the work of a single person... Talk about a motivated individual !! I dont know about companies like cave and such but i am sure dedication is what drives them.

Thats just my 2 cents anyway

[gs68]

I feel that someone who is proficient at one game or genre--be it fighting games, FPSes, RTSes, or what have you--does not have the right to say that shmups are for "insane Japanese people". I don't go around saying that COD Black Ops is for insane Americans.

(Actually I probably should. If I incite flames, that proves my point. )

[neorichieb1971]

I don't know of any Japanese on this forum and i've been here years.

[gs68]

We have a few posters here in Japan, although they're gaikokujin rather than natives.

[moozooh]

KET is a member here.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

We have a few posters here in Japan, although they're gaikokujin rather than natives.

Yea its really a shame how detached the Japanese shmupping scene is from the western communities in places like here, cave.stg and the french site. Of which there seems to be some communication between us and and a feeling that were are all part of a greater fandom (even them guys from that chinese site popped round to say hello.) With the Japanese scene which is the shmup motherland there isnt any of that. So that for anybody who doesnt understand Japanese they always feel like an enigma with just the odd bit of PR news that those in the know are kind enough to post here

Maybe if there was more collabaration between us and japanese shmuppers there would be less of a gap between our highscores?

KET is a member here.

KET rocks, I really should make more effort to catch him when hes streaming live video

[gs68]

Maybe if there was more collabaration between us and japanese shmuppers there would be less of a gap between our highscores?

Probably not really a smaller score gap since Japanese players tend to have more experience (and thus higher scores), but it would make us less distant from them. That is, us Westerners would see them as fellow players rather than robot gods.

[neorichieb1971]

There must be some sort of ~Japanese~ site equal to this one!!!!

[TrevHead (TVR)]

There must be some sort of ~Japanese~ site equal to this one!!!!

There no where else like system11.org we're unique!
(still I too would like some of our most knowledgable members to enlighten us as to whats the Japanese shmup scene is like both on and off the net)
Edit weather any of those types of members will actually bother to read this thread is another matter lol

[drunkninja24]

It seems like most of the Japanese gaming community in general gather on 2ch. At least, I haven't heard of anywhere else.

[PROMETHEUS]

There must be some sort of ~Japanese~ site equal to this one!!!!

It seems like most of the Japanese gaming community in general gather on 2ch. At least, I haven't heard of anywhere else.

Japanese people seem not to like PCs nearly as much as we do, do they ? There is nearly zero japanese players in all PC games online. I find that really really odd, as it's one of the very few countries in the whole world that is absent from PC gaming, even though they have a large game / technology culture base.

I find it amazing that they don't have a freaking shmups forum. We have so many of them in the West @_@ (this one being the best of course ;])

[moozooh]

Japanese people generally use PCs for doujins and MMOs. I believe the reason is that everything else can either be played on the multitude of consoles that originate from their home country, or in the arcades that still exist there.

The lack of forums is what I would attribute to social detachment and preference for anonymization (they have lots of anonymous messageboards). For other purposes, Twitter seems to suit their needs just fine. Some of the Japanese players I know tweet 15–20 times a day easily.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Perhaps forums are not great deal of fun in languages devoid of hefty profanities.

[gs68]

Typical conversation with someone from another gaming fandom about shmups:
"Man, I'll never understand you shmup freaks. I bet you play this stuff 24/7 to get this good. [goes back to rocking Starcraft or SSF4 or whatever]"

[BarfHappy]

Japanese people generally use PCs for doujins and MMOs. I believe the reason is that everything else can either be played on the multitude of consoles that originate from their home country, or in the arcades that still exist there.

The lack of forums is what I would attribute to social detachment and preference for anonymization (they have lots of anonymous messageboards). For other purposes, Twitter seems to suit their needs just fine. Some of the Japanese players I know tweet 15–20 times a day easily.

In japan a lot of people were already shifting to laptops in the late 90s, with crappy intel integrated graphics chips, because it was a big space savior (and you could get one as bonus). The counter part, they couldn't enjoy gaming much on that and so focused on consoles. I know my friends did (i ve always been a build-your-PC type, no laptops for me).
As for masscomu, you ll get a big listening crowd on anonymous boards or quick chat systems (the japanese love chatrooms they go crazy sometimes xD ) but hey, don t forget Mixi ...

Anyway, I love shmups, and i love dissecting them, try to grasp their inner secrets. I can for example tell you that at least since esp ra de Cave love using 64 bytes bullet entries xD (and it has not really changed since Ketsui, the engine is good and portable)
Anyway To me they are not a niche genre, just on the rebound, let s not forget that gran daddy Space Invader was a world rocking success and even my dad played that !

[Rob]

Best username.