Why shmups are such a niche genre

[Obiwanshinobi]

Well, obviously not every developer thinks about target audience of their games as "mainstream gamers". Times have never been more convenient for those who are happy as long as the sales of their games are good enough to fund another project (or so I hope).
As for looking "real", it's probably the cheapest way to go these days. Why does Fast Striker look - oh, irony - not unlike a polygonal metallic modern shmup? Possibly because it was the cheapest solution. So if the artistic part of development boils down to rendering the lot in 3D, you can as well do it in real time (it's not like modern hardware isn't powerful enough), and if "real" looks are more stomachable for the majority of gamers...
Had someone remade Tyrian (even as a UT2004 mod, or powered by Quake II engine which is free these days), tweaking the game so it wouldn't suck this time around, would it be targeted at "mainstream gamers"? No, but it would be refreshing and the world have seen stranger mods, total conversions and the likes. I believe Tyrian deserves to become a good game, the world deserves another shmup in the vein of Compile shmups, and both things seem totally doable with some affordable technology in this day and age. People keep modding PC games, don't they?

[Drachenherz]

Trying to make mainstream gamers play shmups is like trying to get vegetarians to eat meat.


You might achieve it if you force feed them.

/signed
/close thread


( I loled... Hard )

[Ed Oscuro]

fresh edition off the presses

Learn2WR and then you'll realize [Guwange gameplay] it's dumb.

appropriately 'hurrhurr'd by MX7 already

[sikraiken]

Why are shooters a niche genre? Majority of the population would play them with credit feeding, a select few want to be really good at them quickly, there are some that play to get slowly better (more casual, but you'd be surprised to know I actually like these players), and then there are some people who want to play with one credit only but just complain about the same things and these people are pretty stagnant/lame/etc. Those last people should just join the majority.

I wasn't saying "go get a world record," but in making a scoring system, a company should find a balance between fun and annoying (preferably eliminating the annoying).

[ST Dragon]

Oh, Team 17 remade Alien Breed for current gen platforms. Looks... greasy, but that's Unreal Engine 3 for you.

Now that's what I'm talking about! It's been out for months too! How could I have missed that?!
But doesn't it look almost identical to Alien Swarm & Shadow Grounds?

By the way, is the PC version released in a Disc Media form or only as downloadable game via Steam?

[Kaiser]

Oh, Team 17 remade Alien Breed for current gen platforms. Looks... greasy, but that's Unreal Engine 3 for you.

Now that's what I'm talking about! It's been out for months too!
But doesn't it look almost identical to Alien Swarm & Shadow Grounds?

By the way, is the PC version released in a Disc Media form or only as downloadable game via Steam?

Digital only, on steam specifically

[ST Dragon]

Oh, Team 17 remade Alien Breed for current gen platforms. Looks... greasy, but that's Unreal Engine 3 for you.

Now that's what I'm talking about! It's been out for months too!
But doesn't it look almost identical to Alien Swarm & Shadow Grounds?

By the way, is the PC version released in a Disc Media form or only as downloadable game via Steam?

Digital only, on steam specifically

Well that explains "how could I have missed that?!"

[esreveR]

Reportedly LittleBigPlanet 2 runs at 30 fps. By the power of the Cell, hail the progress of 2D platforming in high profile current gen exclusives.
Now imagine a 2D shooter with high tech, high concept presentation, massive hype, poor framerate and, um, controversial controls. "Input lag is realistic, framerate is cinematic, it was a design decision, the game is immersive..."

Metal Slug runs at 30FPS.

And look at how awesome that is.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Metal Slug pushed Neo Geo graphically and looked better than everything else in the arcades where I used to play it. Is LittleBigPlanet 2 any modern day equivalent of that phenomenon in terms of the presentation?
Truth be told, Metal Slug's input lag is a major turn off for me these days. Style over substance and all that. I'd rather play Contra: Shattered Soldier, Chelnov or Rocket Knight Adventures. Low framerate/input lag is also the reason why I can't be bothered playing MD/Genesis versions of Granada, Bio-ship Paladin and Ranger-X.
I haven't played LBP and I'm not saying it's a bad game, but what I'm saying is: if you are gonna make a hot shit platformer, it had better be smooth and responsive. Nintendo understands this much.

[CptRansom]

there are some that play to get slowly better

And some of us who play to get very, VERY slowly better. >.>

in making a scoring system, a company should find a balance between fun and annoying (preferably eliminating the annoying).

God, this times a million. Unfortunately for me, I find anything too far beyond "survive and shoot shit for points" to be annoying.

[ST Dragon]

Metal Slug pushed Neo Geo graphically and looked better than everything else in the arcades where I used to play it. Is LittleBigPlanet 2 any modern day equivalent of that phenomenon in terms of the presentation?
Truth be told, Metal Slug's input lag is a major turn off for me these days. Style over substance and all that. I'd rather play Contra: Shattered Soldier, Chelnov or Rocket Knight Adventures. Low framerate/input lag is also the reason why I can't be bothered playing MD/Genesis versions of Granada, Bio-ship Paladin and Ranger-X.
I haven't played LBP and I'm not saying it's a bad game, but what I'm saying is: if you are gonna make a hot shit platformer, it had better be smooth and responsive. Nintendo understands this much.

Wait, as far as I know Ranger-X was only made for the SEGA Mega Drive / Genesis.
And it’s by no accident that it runs at 30FPS as it pushes the system graphically more than any other Genesis game. Despite the limited 64colour palette, it boasted some of the finest graphics ever seen on the Genesis.

[Mills]

Can believe members here still chatting on this topic when the obvious reasons have long already been explained in full.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Wait, as far as I know Ranger-X was only made for the SEGA Mega Drive / Genesis.
And it’s by no accident that it runs at 30FPS as it pushes the system graphically more than any other Genesis game. Despite the limited 64colour palette, it boasted some of the finest graphics ever seen on the Genesis.

Yeah, I knew about Ranger-X being exclusive. In all fairness, its real-time input lag isn't worse than in many console games of the era running at higher framerates (Gynoug, CRYING, Alien Soldier...), thus better colours instead of smoothness may be a fair trade for some.
I was going to mention FZ Senki Axis/Final Zone as an example, but the MD version is actually pretty badass despite 30 fps, so I brought up Ranger-X.

[ST Dragon]

Can believe members here still chatting on this topic when the obvious reasons have long already been explained in full.

Care to mention a few as I some people here obviously missed them
Maybe links?...

[neorichieb1971]

Perhaps its niche because most people felt it hit its peak about 15 years ago. For westerners that certainly would be true.

[RNGmaster]

The shmup genre has turned towards itself and, as a consequence, is almost totally impenetrable to most gamers. Take Crimzon Clover. I know of no shmupper that has anything bad to say about the game - I personally think that it's an incredible masterpiece and a very stressful scoring challenge, to say nothing of the graphics and BGM. But a normal person playing the game would be totally turned off by the incomprehensible scoring mechanics - try explaining them in 4 sentences or less, I dare you - and the insane-looking challenge.

Truth be told, fuck the mainstream if insularity means getting the chance to play games like this. I enjoy it, and I don't care that no one else in my school does. Why are we worried about trying to appeal to larger numbers of people if the games we play are so much better because they don't try to appeal to large audiences?

[moozooh]

incomprehensible scoring mechanics - try explaining them in 4 sentences or less, I dare you

I accept your challenge!

1. Lock onto as many enemies as possible at once to increase your multiplier for a short while.
2. Shoot things to build up the break gauge.
3. Initiate break mode and shoot things to build up a secondary break gauge.
4. Initiate double break mode to cash-in big time by shooting things with enormous multiplier.

Eloquence could probably be improved, but that's it in a nutshell, isn't it?

[RNGmaster]

You didn't explain bullet cancelling (though admittedly, that's more of a factor on Unlimited).

[Obiwanshinobi]

Impenetrability of modern shmups is about their systems being non-intuitive rather than complex. Understanding the rules of Psyvariar is much easier than getting the hang of the buzz system (especially without a stick, when roll button adds another layer of abstraction).
I'd say arcade games should be accessible and easy to grasp. Cave shmups seem detached from their arcade roots in this regard (in all fairness, so does Defender). If you care about seeing your initials on the scoreboard, that is.

[captpain]

Shmups are a niche genre cause everyone is dumb as hell except for me, ultimate shmup fan #1 (aka world's greatest gamer).

[Blackbird]

Why are we worried about trying to appeal to larger numbers of people if the games we play are so much better because they don't try to appeal to large audiences?

Personally, I'm interested to see what mainstream developers would do if they decided to produce shooters again.

Crimzon Clover is an astounding game that was made by only one person. Imagine what would happen if a top tier studio with an actual budget and an entire team of developers worked on a AAA shooter. It could be pretty rad (if design could be kept focused).

Additionally, I would like to see more people developing shooters simply because I want to see more ideas introduced into the genre. Cave and Touhou are, undoubtedly, the most influential design philosophies in the genre right now. Again returning to the example of Crimzon Clover, this game feels, for all it's refinement, like a DDP DFK clone with some RayForce added for good measure. I'd like to see more designers represented so that we wouldn't have a few people making clones of an even smaller number of games/design philosophies.

[moozooh]

You didn't explain bullet cancelling (though admittedly, that's more of a factor on Unlimited).

True, I wrote that with only Original in mind.

[Naryoril]

Why are we worried about trying to appeal to larger numbers of people if the games we play are so much better because they don't try to appeal to large audiences?

Because i want more people to talk to about shooters

[PROMETHEUS]

Why are we worried about trying to appeal to larger numbers of people if the games we play are so much better because they don't try to appeal to large audiences?

Because i want more people to talk to about shooters

I don't think appealing to larger audiences necessarily makes a game worse. It just requires a lot of fine-tuning to make it work : remain deep and be approachable by many players. Great competitive games examples : Starcraft, Counter Strike, Puyo Puyo, Street Fighter. Great non competitive games examples : Half Life 2, Doom 3, Final Fantasy 7, Super Mario Galaxy 2, LittleBigPlanet.
I don't think shmups are "better" than those large audience games. However I agree that it's very difficult to make this particular genre broadly appealing while keeping its depth intact. I would love them to become much more widely enjoyed though, because like Naryoril said it would be awesome that more people care about them, and it would obviously trigger the creation of a larger number of great shmups.
Besides, it's okay in a genre if some games are shallow to the experienced gamer, but approachable for the others, as it just draws more people in who will eventually become experienced and also demand and start playing deeper games.

Look at the first shmups. Don't tell me they have anywhere near as much depth as the Cave games of today. They were large audience games, and they lacked all the experience we have acquired to make shmups really deep.
And today Cave show more and more care to make their games both larger audience and deep : Mushihimesama Futari and DoDonPachi DaiFukkatsu are great examples.

[gs68]

The shmup genre has turned towards itself and, as a consequence, is almost totally impenetrable to most gamers. Take Crimzon Clover. I know of no shmupper that has anything bad to say about the game - I personally think that it's an incredible masterpiece and a very stressful scoring challenge, to say nothing of the graphics and BGM. But a normal person playing the game would be totally turned off by the incomprehensible scoring mechanics - try explaining them in 4 sentences or less, I dare you - and the insane-looking challenge.

Nah, "normal people" wouldn't care; in the Touhou thread on a forum that shall not be named, many of the posters (a majority of which have minimal experience with other shmups) have made it clear that they either don't give two shits about score, or are too busy playing for survival to play for score.

I'd like to think that CC marks the revival of shmups that don't require cutesy anime-style characters to be popular, but it's too soon to be saying that.

[captpain]

Besides, it's okay in a genre if some games are shallow to the experienced gamer, but approachable for the others, as it just draws more people in who will eventually become experienced and also demand and start playing deeper games.

I don't really think that's true. From all outward appearances, it seems that mostly everyone is perfectly happy with playing shallow games, and only a small minority are seriously capable of even perceiving proper depth (let alone demanding more).

[PROMETHEUS]

From all outward appearances, it seems that mostly everyone is perfectly happy with playing shallow games, and only a small minority are seriously capable of even perceiving proper depth (let alone demanding more).

Right, only a small minority will advance to enjoy the games in a deeper way. But it doesn't mean the reasons why the others enjoy the games are bad reasons. Players who play espgaluda just for the feeling and ambiance of it are touching one of the interesting aspects of shmups. It's not like everyone has time to dive deeper into everything they like.

Playing games casually is great in its own right.

[captpain]

From all outward appearances, it seems that mostly everyone is perfectly happy with playing shallow games, and only a small minority are seriously capable of even perceiving proper depth (let alone demanding more).

Right, only a small minority will advance to enjoy the games in a deeper way. But it doesn't mean the reasons why the others enjoy the games are bad reasons. Players who play espgaluda just for the feeling and ambiance of it are touching one of the interesting aspects of shmups. It's not like everyone has time to dive deeper into everything they like.

Playing games casually is great in its own right.

Agreed -- I meant more that accessible, shallow games probably won't lead many people towards demanding more complex games. I think people usually find the level of depth they're comfortable with pretty quickly, and for most it's in the 'shallow but fun' area.

I think ultimately gaming is about enjoying the experience, whatever makes it fun for a person, but that won't stop me from being frustrated with people having low standards

[Blackbird]

I think the hallmark of every great game is the ability to be enjoyed at both a shallow and a deep level. Almost every game you just cited, Prometheus, has these qualities.

These are the games that become landmark titles - true classics.

[neoKEN]

Modern games are becoming more immersive with them being closer to the action. View from the eyes of the main character, long scripted storyline, etc.