Brexit: Leave wins!

[BIL]

screw the rest of the continent

No no no, the UK is an island. It floats in the sea with some other bits.

We're Putting the Great Back in Britain yeeeeaaahhhhh.

This is nearly verbatim what Cameron was saying the other night. Don't be little England (pfff lmao, m i rite *thrusts member into pig's mouth while burning £50*), be a GR8 Britain!

I'm still not sure which is better tbh.

[PAPER/ARTILLERY]

Right well it's crunch time, get out there and vote guys. If there's one thing we can all agree on it's that democracy is good.

[system11]

Did anyone see that big televised debate from the Wembley arena? It was all going so well until someone decided it was the right forum for a cheap shot about campaign funding sources. Politicians will always be politicians. It was reassuring that the audience were clearly not very impressed.

It's going to be a remain verdict anyway, and this is safest, but I hope the leave count is large enough for two things:

1) Serious consideration given by EU politicians on what they're doing and how people feel about it - the entire continent of Europe is not your fucking toy box and pet project, it's millions of lives. Look what you did to Greece by greedily admitting a country who weren't economically ready.

2) There are several other countries with a large division of opinion, and I hope that they're able to point to us as an example of democracy so that they're given a choice like we've had.

You know last week I found a link to a video by David Icke. He's a famously crazy conspiracy theorist, and the whole situation / claims from politicians on both sides as well as in Europe, made him look sane. YOU MADE DAVID ICKE LOOK REASONABLE, HE BELIEVES IN 4D LIZARDMEN, STOP IT.

[PAPER/ARTILLERY]

Did anyone see that big televised debate from the Wembley arena? It was all going so well until someone decided it was the right forum for a cheap shot about campaign funding sources.

I watched that debate, honestly I thought the level of discourse was pretty deplorable. Between the Leave camp repeating their "Take Back Control" tagline every 60 seconds and the literal 'he said, she said' fingerpointing from both sides, it felt like an exercise in rhetoric and repetition rather than a debate based in facts and reason. It was frustrating to see so many good questions asked by the public which were promptly evaded and answers supplied for a question tangentially related. I'm thinking in particular of the woman that asked about impact on local businesses and received a lecture on the opinions of the JCB corporation and other massive multi-nationals. A missed opportunity.

[system11]

I really cringed when Boris wheeled out the independence day line. I cringed more when I saw the morning paper front pages. That's prime meme material.

[Tarma]

The debate on Channel 4 last night was worse and clearly biased to the In campaign.

I've cast my vote and I stand by it, if the result goes for remain, it's been an opportunity lost in my opinion, but then again I don't think they (Out) delivered an effective campaign by any means.

Not enough has been said about what the plan is after "Out" and therefore too many people have bottled it and gone for remain. Also, far too much focus on the immigration issue. Pitty.

BTW, those who vote in and think we can still negotiate are going to be sorely disappointed... there is no way the other major EU members will allow changes to the treaties needed to satisfy the electorate as a whole.

[system11]

BTW, those who vote in and think we can still negotiate are going to be sorely disappointed... there is no way the other major EU members will allow changes to the treaties needed to satisfy the electorate as a whole.

This is true - the remain vote actually /endorses/ the current situation so if anything makes it less likely than before. Cameron already blew his (our) chance for proper negotiation.

[PAPER/ARTILLERY]

I really cringed when Boris wheeled out the independence day line. I cringed more when I saw the morning paper front pages. That's prime meme material.

Yeah I saw a copy of The Sun earlier and felt like spitting on it. Yuck.

[Tarma]

I doubt this will be the last of it, only next time I hope for a more constructive campaign where the man on the street clearly understands what he is getting either way.

[neorichieb1971]

The way the EU is ran is what is wrong. The 28 vote thing. You can't change anything if every state has to vote identically.

[CStarFlare]

Realistically, if the vote is to remain when is the soonest another referendum would be held? I can't imagine the instability Britain voting on this on a regular basis would cause.

[PAPER/ARTILLERY]

Realistically, if the vote is to remain when is the soonest another referendum would be held? I can't imagine the instability Britain voting on this on a regular basis would cause.

I'd imagine 5 years or so, pure specualtion though.

[CIT]

The way the EU is ran is what is wrong. The 28 vote thing. You can't change anything if every state has to vote identically.

Not sure what you mean. Most legislation (the exception being foreign policy) only requires a qualified majority in the EU Council.

[Blinge]

If a unanimous decision isn't reached by EU parliament on the important issues that require unanimous decisions (most of them); the legislature is sent back to the EU commission for amendment or to be scrapped entirely. That's my understanding of it anyway.

https://youtu.be/USTypBKEd8Y
"Professor of European Law at the University of Liverpool, Professor Dougan provides his viewpoint on the EU referendum, and discussed the facts and figures circulated by both the ‘Leave’ and ‘Remain’ campaigns."

It's a bit late, I know..

[Durandal]

I have no idea what there is to lose or gain with a brexit/bremain anymore, all this blatant appeal to emotion leads me to believe that people are just going to pick the least worst option, and makes me wonder whether the referendum itself has done more damage than an actual brexit/bremain happening because of how the general population and media has been conducting itself, as it is only bound to create more division in the future. Democracy yes, but this is far from the best example of letting the public decide on such a divisive issue.

I mean, making England great again? Here I thought Northern European countries stopped bothering with being proud of their countries (outside of football championships) after Germany spoiled everything. I wouldn't even know how to describe the cultural identity of Northern European countries other than 'be tolerant'. Even though I think it's rather likely for the EU to turn into an United States of Europe in a distant future, all this Take Back Britain talk makes me cringe. And Christ, not everyone voting to brexit is a racist ignorant islamophobe who doesn't care about the well being of the economy. The biggest question is how this division in the country is going to resolve itself, but then again I'm only a foreigner.

[Skykid]

Right well it's crunch time, get out there and vote guys. If there's one thing we can all agree on it's that democracy is good.

It would be if it existed.

Sadly it doesn't and that means you won't get what you want.

Sorry dude.

[PAPER/ARTILLERY]

Never change Skykid

[Tarma]

I have no idea what there is to lose or gain with a brexit/bremain anymore, all this blatant appeal to emotion leads me to believe that people are just going to pick the least worst option, and makes me wonder whether the referendum itself has done more damage than an actual brexit/bremain happening because of how the general population and media has been conducting itself, as it is only bound to create more division in the future. Democracy yes, but this is far from the best example of letting the public decide on such a divisive issue.

I mean, making England great again? Here I thought Northern European countries stopped bothering with being proud of their countries (outside of football championships) after Germany spoiled everything. I wouldn't even know how to describe the cultural identity of Northern European countries other than 'be tolerant'. Even though I think it's rather likely for the EU to turn into an United States of Europe in a distant future, all this Take Back Britain talk makes me cringe. And Christ, not everyone voting to brexit is a racist ignorant islamophobe who doesn't care about the well being of the economy. The biggest question is how this division in the country is going to resolve itself, but then again I'm only a foreigner.

Great post, some really good points.

I doubt Britain would join a United States of Europe, I think on that one we would have pro-leave Government.

Most pro-remain are doing so on the economic arguments / threats put forward. We're in a period of austerity, we're just coming out of the worst global economic downturn since the Great Depression, Mr & Mrs Smith really can't stomach any more economic uncertainty or the threat of mortgage payments going up or food prices rising. These threats are powerful tools that your average non-politicised Brit are very wary and afraid of.
If the leave camp had put forward more credible economic arguments and rebuttals to leaving then I think it would be a very one-sided campaign. They didn't, so it wasn't.
So, next we're also have all the conspiracy theory nuts out saying that the Out campaign was deliberately run in a half-assed way so people would be too frightend to vote out. I suppose the writing was on the wall when Michael Gove was put forward as one of the leading voices of Out. Apart from in his own constituency he's not a very popular politician, comes across to me as one of the faces of Conservativism that the Conservatives could do without because of his demeanor. So there's every chance they may have a point...

However you look at it, the political fallout is going to dominate the next 12 months at least, and I wouldn't be surprised if we don't see a leadership challenge from within the Conservatives to get Cameron out.

Another referendum - possibly... even probably, but not until the next Parliament - 2020.

[neorichieb1971]

I feel that this referendum is a debacle from beginning to end.

A) No clear and concise (agreed upon) statistics on where UK membership money goes or what we get out of it
B) No clear and concise (agreed upon) notion on where the EU is going in the future
C) No clear and concise (agree upon) on what will happen whether we stay or we leave.

I mean WTF!

A lot of the remain camp are stating its like having a choice of £1million or to see whats inside a box. They would take the million because they can see it (remaining). Where as leaving produces more questions than it answers (whats in the box).

[Ed Oscuro]

Right well it's crunch time, get out there and vote guys. If there's one thing we can all agree on it's that democracy is good.

It would be if it existed.

Sadly it doesn't and that means you won't get what you want.

Sorry dude.

Even if there is a democracy, it's only as good as what's going in. This whole debate smacks of "Garbage In, Garbage Out." NPR's had some great reporting on the Brexit issue but it's obvious that 90% of what people in the UK are hearing is "turmoil and armageddon" on the one hand, and "take back power" on the other. Neither of these lines is very convincing.

In fairness the Brexit "leavers" are wrong for promising more control with Britain out. Britain already has control of its currency and financial policy since it didn't join the common currency area, which the Leave campaign conveniently forgets. The UK won't pay for Euro zone bailouts...well, you can just read a list of things both sides have been getting wrong here and make up your own minds!

Best of luck.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Do any of those who say "remain but re-write the Treaty on EU" (I heard at least one British person saying something along those lines on the radio) put any proposal how they believe it should be re-written?

[MintyTheCat]

God you're insane, this is hilarious. It's like you're jerking off saying my name.
Have fun but please clean up when you're done, it's disgusting.

I bet you'd like that but I don't fancy any 'French Sex', thanks

[MintyTheCat]

Yes, quite on the edge of your seat over in Germany for me too. I actually cannot vote this time either.

I agree that it needs to be very close to allow the cosies in Brussels that people are not completely switched off but I doubt people will be suitably informed enough the next time it happens - if it happens that is.

I am already working out if I can pull the "Irish Family" relation card worst-case as I happen to be Brit, Irish and German family tree wise - lucky, and I have long-term residency in Germany so I doubt I will personally be thrown out but you never know

As a Brit though I hope that the UK gets the best option it can for the people and the country but, yes, big business is not likely to relax too easily on this one and even if the UK gets the leave vote it will take a lot of work to set up leave agreements and again big business can get in the way of that and hamper progress. I forget how long it took Iceland but it was several years and they have a much smaller population so nothing will change fast and all this talk of the sky falling in should the UK leave is rubbish.

Vote well, my citizens

[CIT]

I forget how long it took Iceland but it was several years and they have a much smaller population so nothing will change fast and all this talk of the sky falling in should the UK leave is rubbish.

Huh? Iceland was never part of the EU to begin with.

[neorichieb1971]

Blimey after Newcastle and Sunderland the "leave" vote is winning.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Isn't Iceland more of a US' satellite than EU's?

[neorichieb1971]

Isn't Iceland more of a US' satellite than EU's?

Its Europe.

[Ed Oscuro]

Wales wants out, Watford said go, and odds are now that Britain follows.

So...ehh, there are some natural things that would need to be done: Aside from taking inevitable shots from EU countries on its way out, Britain should consider keeping movement open (i.e. across the Chunnel, which already can't be that fun to begin with), and at should certainly keep an open border with the Republic of Ireland.

It's still the 23rd here but I think that Britain is in a new age. Or is the swinging of the pendulum? Some people who fought to get Britain in years ago now want out.

[EmperorIng]

Hate to be the Yank that says it, but BBC is calling for Brexit. I don't know if that'll hold, but UK is going to have to do a lot of things quickly when it comes to its market.

I think Ed (those independence.co links you posted were good reading btw) is right to point out that relatively open borders between France and Ireland should be kept running smoothly - and I predict it will given a lot of the economic uncertainty right now. However, I think the pound is going to stabilize in a few weeks; its rapid jumping around is more due to fear and panic than anything else.

I think your point about the generational opinion shift is worth exploring. People change their minds or their worldviews as they grow up, of course, but I wonder if some of those people who voted "In" 40 years ago don't "see" the same organization that they were enthusiastic about in their youth.

All the same I wish and hope all the best for our UK members from here on out.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Isn't Iceland more of a US' satellite than EU's?

Its Europe.

"EU" does not equal "Europe". The history of settlement on Iceland is not entirely unlike that of United States (there wasn't any "Kingdom of Iceland" from what I remember; Norwegian, then Danish protectorate was agreed upon as a subterfuge to preserve some of the settlers' liberties).