Dark Souls 1 vs. Dark Souls 2, and why the sequel is better

[Squire Grooktook]

To be honest, I feel the combat in the series in general is very good, if a bit over-rated. It's a 3d Classic Castlevania in it's reliance on commitment to your offensive and defensive options, which is nice. But some people have freaked out about it a little more than it deserves, because it's the first game that tricked them into actually putting thought into a game (not talking about people here, but the more casual crowd).

Still, I don't totally agree. I haven't really experienced most of the things you mentioned about ds1 (shielding adds an extra safety net, but over-reliance or a totally defensive strategy tends to get me punished hard by enemies and bosses. Enemies themselves are more agressive than defensive, and the few ones carrying shields are easlily guard broken by kicking or two handed weapon, etc.) so I think it's overall a really solid and fun game. Just not my absolute favorite.

[Obscura]

I've seen people make the Castlevania comparison before, but I don't really see it myself; DkS 1 is too "call and response" for that. Maybe if Castlevania was nothing but classic CV1/CV3 style Axe Armors, but there's nothing like trying to take out those birds, or the classic "two skeletons on top of a staircase that throw bones and you have to try to manipulate their movement" setup (as a side note, the best of those in the series is the one at the start of X68K stage 4's stained glass staircase). It's more Battle of Olympus or maybe even Zelda II.

I imagine that people who like very "call and response/Simon says" kinds of games are probably a lot higher on DkS 1 than I am... but, I'm sure you've figured out by now how much of a fan of that kind of game I am.

[Squire Grooktook]

I draw the comparison because the timing on attacks and rolls is lengthy, and there is no way of cancelling out once you begin (much like how there is no way of cancelling out of a whip animation once you start, or how you can't change direction mid jump in CV). If you attack or roll at the wrong time in any Souls game, you'll get hit, no questions asked. It's that angle of "commitment" to your moves that makes the playstyle look and feel similar to CV in my opinion.

[Ed Oscuro]

Been sitting on this post for a few days in hopes of letting the discussion settle a bit, and hopefully this is an opportune time to set the record straight. Good and bad news:

Guess what -- I can provide evidence that the movement speed was always faster than in DkS 1!

http://www.ign.com/videos/2013/04/10/da ... inute-demo 1:44 in this vid. Walk speed is slow here, but the movement speed in combat is quite a bit faster than in DkS 1.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pspaOayk_ZY Later trailer -- sped up even further. 27 seconds has standard "walk" footage, and it's at 60Hz walk speed.

http://www.polygon.com/2013/6/11/441798 ... e3-preview From a 2013 E3 preview build: "The control of characters felt noticeably different, speedier perhaps, and without the weight of characters in Dark Souls."


So yes, there's plenty of evidence that the 60Hz speed is how the game was supposed to play.

Before I made my previous post, way back in ancient times, I found a couple videos (both showing pre-SotFS gameplay), which I should have watched first:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CAKFFUSPAM - enemy attack speed at 30 and 60 fps
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-B1L07L3UlE - movement at 30 and 60 fps (might show more, but the opening bits look like all that's needed). If there is a difference in movement speed here between the framerates, it's too subtle to notice.

If you want to say that From intended to speed up movement, I certainly won't disagree with that; I'll even say that believing it's an improvement is a fine opinion to have. The good news is that you don't need to tie that to 60Hz! The bad news is that I don't see how you are claiming those links as proof of 60Hz in any shape.

Worse than that, the IGN reveal video (awkward mouth breathing!) puts a lot of emphasis on improved visuals - it's literally the first thing they said. It's impossible to tell in this video (which certainly isn't 60Hz), but the heavy amounts of motion blur applied seem to indicate this is at least dipping close to 30fps already.

Ultimately that doesn't matter, though; to get absolutely clear evidence (instead of relying on induction, which I think still more than do the job, though you disagreed) on whether they actually stuck with developing 60Hz is still a tall order. As you agree with the IGN reveal, From was able to change speeds independently of technical considerations - which is one of the points I was trying to make earlier.

So, that leaves us with just good news. What remains might just be the durability issue - it looks like most everything else is well-behaved at different speeds, and SotFS reportedly irons out some unusual results in durability testing around the 40-42fps range. There are yet more reasons (and refinements to reasons previously mentioned) arguing against 60Hz being the primary target throughout development, but the main point is that if you are mostly interested in movement speed, it looks to me like there is no reason to try and justify that with framerate discussion.

[Obscura]

Uh, watch the second video you linked closely. The second Alonne knight animation, the 30 FPS one starts first by a few frames, but the 60 FPS one catches up about 3/4ths of the way through the animation and clearly finishes first.

The animation at about 2 minutes is just incredibly blatant.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVrlwnYkRMI

You can see it clearer when someone isn't trying to intentionally mask it by doing a frame-by-frame at two separate framerates with the 30 FPS one starting first by several frames. Skip to 1:30.

[Volteccer_Jack]

Uh, watch the second video you linked closely. The second Alonne knight animation, the 30 FPS one starts first by a few frames, but the 60 FPS one catches up about 3/4ths of the way through the animation and clearly finishes first.

The animation at about 2 minutes is just incredibly blatant.

I'm not seeing it. In fact it looks like the 60 fps is the one starting early, I can freeze-frame both of those clips with the 60 fps Alonne's sword lit up first.

[Immryr]

That said, I know that I was putting points into END after the green bar was not getting longer anymore, just because I needed the carry weight.

unless you were trying to do fast rolls in full havels, that just isn't true.

I'm not sure why this thread is still going, it's beyond ridiculous now.

[Ed Oscuro]

Uh, watch the second video you linked closely. The second Alonne knight animation, the 30 FPS one starts first by a few frames, but the 60 FPS one catches up about 3/4ths of the way through the animation and clearly finishes first.

That's just framerate jitter. Stop cherry-picking your evidence.

/perfect example why you're still arguing 60Hz was the target when there's only one platform the game was released for where From can count on getting close to 60fps regularly

[Obscura]

Uh, watch the second video you linked closely. The second Alonne knight animation, the 30 FPS one starts first by a few frames, but the 60 FPS one catches up about 3/4ths of the way through the animation and clearly finishes first.

That's just framerate jitter. Stop cherry-picking your evidence.

/perfect example why you're still arguing 60Hz was the target when there's only one platform the game was released for where From can count on getting close to 60fps regularly

LOL, I'm cherry picking evidence when I'm responding to vids you're posting. Right.

Go to 40 seconds of your first video. The 30 FPS Alonne Knight clearly starts his dash first. And yet, if you go to 1:06, you can see that the 60 FPS Alonne Knight finishes his attack about 4 frames before the 30 FPS one does.

You're the one cherry picking evidence by claiming that people saying that "the build From showed off at E3 feels faster and 'lighter' than Dark Souls 1" is invalid evidence, as is From themselves saying "The PC version serves as a base from which the consoles are adapted" (link: http://www.gamekult.com/actu/zoom-dark- ... 08297.html).

[CMoon]

That said, I know that I was putting points into END after the green bar was not getting longer anymore, just because I needed the carry weight.

unless you were trying to do fast rolls in full havels, that just isn't true.

I'm not sure why this thread is still going, it's beyond ridiculous now.

Yeah, I'm trying to decide when to cut my losses and stop posting in this thread. Worth noting that Obscura seems to really favor heavy strength melee builds, which has several implications, and some of what he says seems to reveal a few things about his play style. I'm guessing, given what he's said about endurance that he's using the heaviest gear and only experiencing the game as a slow, tanky build.

For the record, and everyone can take this as being as elitist and snarkish as they want, armor is just a way to make the game easier. It is no different than having a slider bar that changes the difficulty to easy. The punishment of making characters slower and have less iframes is the trade off for making the game easier.

Can you have the fast roll out of the box with most classes without going naked?

The fact that 'naked' is even a consideration (beyond aesthetics) for me reveals a difference in the way both of us play the game. I'd rather drop all my armor and go for no hits with a RTSR set-up than tank a bunch of hits. For this playstyle, the way backstabs worked made a lot of sense because I was speed running a lot of areas anyway, and the arcade-like nature of it allowed a few critical enemies to be taken out fast. I started getting the most enjoyment out of this game when I started playing empty right hand (stagger/push), shield left hand for parries, then bringing out the pyro flame to kill bosses.

To return to this question, the issue I had with DS2 in this regard was going naked did not give you iframes. The only way to get the more arcade style of DS1 was to pump ADP. Honestly, bloodborne IS the response to this sort of shenanigans. Just drop encumbrance altogether and go for fast, arcade style play. It seems the 'Miyazaki team' and the 'DS2 team' had two different philosophies about this.

I'll pick up DS2 once they fix the weapon degradation glitch as I'm interested to see what I can do with a pyro build. Also, did they ever fix the nearly 0% drop rate on some items (like that scimitar that actually parries like a DS1 weapon)?

[Ed Oscuro]

Indeed, DaS is great fun if you just play as a light assassin-style build with no heavy pieces of armor. Heck, the game makes it quite difficult to try and tank up without losing that speed - I'm at some huge inflated soul level and wearing Havel's ring, yet I still have to keep encumbrance way down for the sake of speed. Asylum Demon was a great rush to play through with just a bleeding weapon, due to having to constantly quickly roll out of the way of attacks. If anything, I'm having trouble with S&O due to not having any ranged attacks at all; I have no choice but to get right in there and get in hits without taking any. It's still a good fast pace of play.

Later I'll be pulling together a response to my last reply, trying to keep it as short as possible (again), but unfortunately there are some methodological issues that have to be addressed, and I also want to look through my old posts to see if I've been consistent. Teasers: "Jitter is not your friend" and "why do you keep assuming one thing means something else"

[BrianC]

I still need to play DS1. Currently, I have been addicted to Monster Hunter 4 Ultimate.

[Obscura]

Yeah, I'm trying to decide when to cut my losses and stop posting in this thread. Worth noting that Obscura seems to really favor heavy strength melee builds, which has several implications, and some of what he says seems to reveal a few things about his play style. I'm guessing, given what he's said about endurance that he's using the heaviest gear and only experiencing the game as a slow, tanky build.

I was fastrolling with my DkS 1 character (hence why I needed so much endurance, to be able to fastroll with a 100% damage resist shield + ultra greatsword, although I didn't care about the roll so much as I cared about being able to walk at a speed that didn't drive me batshit insane at it taking hours to walk 10 feet), and used the Crimson Robes through most of the game.

My DkS 2 character doesn't have that high of strength (I went through most of the game with 15, although have boosted it a bit recently while doing DLCs, just because I've hit the soft cap at most of the "relevant" stats and have to put those points somewhere).

For the record, and everyone can take this as being as elitist and snarkish as they want, armor is just a way to make the game easier. It is no different than having a slider bar that changes the difficulty to easy. The punishment of making characters slower and have less iframes is the trade off for making the game easier.

This is simultaneously true and misleading.

Yes, armor "is a way to make the game easier". So is upgrading your weapon, so is levelling up, so is spending souls at all on anything, so is being able to roll at all, etc. Any mechanic or resource that's available to the player to use to help finish the game, in any game is "a way to make the game easier".

[Squire Grooktook]

Yes, armor "is a way to make the game easier". So is upgrading your weapon, so is levelling up, so is spending souls at all on anything, so is being able to roll at all, etc. Any mechanic or resource that's available to the player to use to help finish the game, in any game is "a way to make the game easier".

This is why it's hard to analyze difficulty for rpg's. There's always going to be some option available to the player to make it easier, if their willing to sacrifice the time. It becomes difficult to tell where "difficulty" ends and where "self imposed challenge" begins.

[Bananamatic]

i thought armor makes the game generally harder except for a few exceptions (catacombs and new londo), with stone armor or havels you can just r1 through all the londo ghosts taking almost no damage and never getting staggered

against bosses it doesn't really help at all
greatshields on the other hand let you just block everything you'd have to roll but they weigh more obviously

if armor makes the game straight up easier, it's dark souls 2 where it happens
fastrolling in havels is so easy to achieve and when upgraded it reduces damage way more than giants armor in dks1 fully upgraded to the point where people in pvp don't use havels because it reduces damage so much it's seen as unfair

[Acid King]

what weapons are you even talking about, the massive ones?

I.e., literally every single strength weapon.

Hitting 30 END + Havel's ring would keep you under 25% burden for all but one Greatsword if you have the crimson set and any number of shields that have 100% damage reduction (Heater, Caduceus, Crest, Grasscrest, etc) equipped. Hitting the soft cap for END and Havel's ring would let you fastroll and use 4 of the 5 Ultra Greatswords with Crimson set and Heater shield. You could also go Havel's + Ring of Favor and Protection to get enough burden at 20 END to keep you under 25% for all the greatswords except dragon, stone, and demon great machete. Unless you're hell bent on using the Dragon Greatsword, which you don't even get until Ash Lake, there's no need to pump points to END just for lowering your burden.

[Blinge]

Anyone see MatthewMatosis' critique? He takes some serious liberties with objectivity before the 18 minute mark, but after that most of what he says is on point.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UScsme8didI

[Obscura]

Is there a text synopsis of that anywhere? I have no desire to watch an hour-long video review.

[Squire Grooktook]

I beat Dark Souls recently and used a two handed katana throughout basically the whole second half of the game.

This was actually mandatory, because when I tried to use a shield against Manus, I got murdered hard.

Fun game, one of my favorites ever right now.

[Blinge]

Is there a text synopsis of that anywhere? I have no desire to watch an hour-long video review.

It's 50 minutes and I said the last half hour is worth watching, you bloody primadonna. How many videos on youtube made by Some Twat(tm) talking about video games have text synopses? I'd wager hardly any.

[Obscura]

At the same time, how many people do you think are willing to listen to some guy who doesn't have a radio voice talk and talk and talk and talk, even if only for 30 minutes?

[Blinge]

I posted it in a relevant thread for people who might be interested. If it was entirely for your eyes I'd have sent you a fucking PM.

How many people do you think are willing to read that actual BOOK you posted about why dota sucks? Christ alive, I skimmed the prologue, the intro, the first chapter and he still hadn't made a single point.

[Squire Grooktook]

Since we're going off topic, I'd also like to point out that the sword in Alltynex Second isn't actually random.

It's just if you tap the button rapidly, you tend to get different timings instead of if you just held it. The reason for this is because there's 3 separate slashes with different timings, and after a few frames it'll return to neutral and the first slash, so depending on how fast you mash you somtimes get the 2nd or 3rd slash or you return to neutral and get the first.

This is easily mitigated by holding down the button. You could also just learn the timing and wait a few frames to return to neutral, or even switch to fighter mode then back to armor to instantly neutral, but not really needed. Holding works in every situation.

I actually think I like Second better then Kamui very slightly. Level design is tighter and faster paced, and the weapons are all very balanced and give you the feeling of having a nice and varied offensive suite. I'd say it's also one of the most aggressive shmups I've played, really makes you think "how do I find a window to damage this boss?" like a Castlevania game. Rare for a shmup.

Kamui is still godtier though. RefleX might be if it had a hard mode or better difficulty balancing on the second half of the game. Also fuck that one life gimmick during the last two battles. Cool as fuck trilogy though.