The PS4 thread

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bigbadboaz
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Re: The PS4 thread

Post by bigbadboaz »

Any thoughts on the PS4 Pro?
I am completely stumped as to why Sony chose this particular increment for their incremental upgrade. It's not powerful enough to do any of the things people will expect - particularly since it's being marketed alongside the BS transition to 4K TVs. Graphics tech is nowhere near where it needs to be for 4K to be a practical reality. And now, they're in the doubly unenviable position of also being technologically inferior to Microsoft's Scorpio. They couldn't have known what MS was doing, and Scorpio itself has issues, but the fact is they lose in a head-to-head comparison.

The really head-scratching thing about all this is that they could have a had a much more substantial upgrade in relatively little time. The CPU has been the weakness of the PS4 all along - not the GPU which is all they've addressed with the Neo - and AMD's new Zen architecture debuts in just a few months. Without being privy to the internal dialogue, I am at a complete loss as to why they thought it was in any form a good idea not to just wait one lousy year and release a true overall upgrade. A new GPU plus Zen would have been impossible to dismiss as a genuine upgrade. It could have been a PS5, or if they felt that was too soon, it would have made a hell of a better case for the world's first "mid-cycle upgrade". The actual Pro, as conceived and unveiled, makes no real sense.

I don't think Sony is necessarily returning to PS3-era arrogance(yet?), but this marks their first serious misstep since all they've gotten right beginning with the PS4 reveal. I don't sense the audience is responding well to the Pro at all. Is it enough to drastically change their momentum? I don't know, but I think it's possible that this thing itself completely stalls and they have to focus back on the base PS4 business.
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Re: The PS4 thread

Post by Xyga »

I think exactly the opposite. ^^

Sony already have the largest park of customers and working devs installed, they haven't failed to sell the PS4 so they don't need to show-off with a monster PS5.
Remember they're selling a simple console, people easily see it as a dedicated tech product, not a PC nor a multimedia hub.
And now they're selling the 'pro' version of it, that'll be enough for self-managed 4K scaling (which is better than letting the TV do) and give a little framerate boost.
OCDees will resell their orginal PS4, and new customers between an Xbone S and the PS4 Pro, will choose the one with the biggest potential for interesting upcoming games.

Microsoft however will have to
1. further disgust the Xbone customers (future new-WiiU owners, yay)
2. squeeze as much power as they can into the Scorpio before Xmas 2017 without ending up with a $1000 sell price.
Stating all the games will be in native 4K is nice, but at what level of details ? lol, to get high level @4K today you need something like a $2000 PC, they're making a mistake pushing people to do that comparison, they'll question the feasability.
Also a new monster console like that will again require years to build a library of costly premium games, in the meantime Sony will prosper like crazy.

All-in-all the PS4 Pro is a good calculation, I would even dare say very good.
And no, people don't give a crap about playing BR movies or VR, seriously.
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iconoclast
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Re: The PS4 thread

Post by iconoclast »

Microsoft said their first party games will be native 4k. Third party developers are allowed to do whatever they want with the system, they don't have to make games that run at 4k. Which is great for me because I couldn't care less about it. Give me a 1080p/60fps option for every game and I'll be more than happy with a new system. The new Xbox also isn't mean to start a new generation. It's just a mid-cycle power boost, like the PS4 Pro.

The PS4 Pro seems totally half-baked. Third party games will be better on PC and Xbox, and worthwhile exclusives are few and far between for both MS and Sony this gen. Selling my PS4 and spending another $200 on the Pro to maybe play a few Yakuza games at 60 fps doesn't sound like a good use of money to me.
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Re: The PS4 thread

Post by Xyga »

But the point is, imagine you're Mr. Lambda, if you had to buy a console this Xmas, also thinking of 2017, which would you buy ?
The PS4 exclusives lineup crushes the Xbone's, easily.

The proint of the Pro is winning another year of supremacy in consoles sales, from Microsoft waiting another year or two while they're already in a weak position is a really wrong move.
It's a console market, PC and consoles have never really been in frontal competition, and if you look only at the consoles, well it's obvious Sony will have it easy for maybe another 2 years.
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Re: The PS4 thread

Post by bigbadboaz »

Sony didn't need to do anything to garner another year or two of leading console sales. All they had to do was pit the Slim against the S, and profit. The Pro makes them look unfocused and, according to me, is poorly calculated.

I don't understand how you see Scorpio as so different than the Pro. It's the same concept, only stronger. Sony slapped a gigantic GPU onto the existing CPU design; MS is waiting a year so they can slap an even bigger GPU on there. Both machines will be fully backwards compatible; both machines allow the possibility of different modes per game, for different levels of hardware, different levels of television, etc.

Bottom line: both companies are doing something very similar, but MS will have the paper-specs advantage this time. If you think devs will have an easy time covering both the base- and Pro- levels of the PS4 market, there's no reason to think it won't be the same with XB1 and Scorpio. There will be no extra lead time to develop a "premium Scorpio catalog" compared to developing one for the Pro.
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Re: The PS4 thread

Post by Ed Oscuro »

The "market fragmentation" and "poorly timed" arguments are missing the point (though "PS4 Pro" isn't a very smart forward-looking name). This isn't really the console market anymore. Sony and Microsoft have finally consolidated their platforms enough that they can finally just use commodity PC hardware, but don't be fooled - the big players are under pressure from larger market forces. In a relatively short period consoles went from offering superior and different capabilities than PCs - at very competitive prices - to now being rapidly depreciated hardware without much to offer except exclusives and perhaps some slight price and convenience advantages. This move simply allows console gamers to take advantage of many things PC gamers have taken for granted for years, while still keeping cost and convenience advantages.

PC gamers have known for a long time about price segmentation, and it's not a bad thing. It doesn't necessarily lead to market fragmentation. It's no big deal that new graphics card architectures launch a full lineup, not just one option; buy something extravagant now, or wait a while to get the same or better performance cheaper. Around the time of the PS3 launch, somebody at Sony said they intended to keep the "format" alive forever. PS2 compatibility was shortly downgraded and eventually dropped for the same reason the SNES didn't include NES compatibility - it wasn't economically feasible. Emulating the PS2 on the PS4 was an "extra," so Sony charge for it (ditto for Microsoft). But moving to universal hardware and forcing better software practices actually allows the format to survive as long as X86-64 gaming R&D keeps going - going forward both Sony and Microsoft will be keen to jump on any moves by their competitor to break faith with this new arrangement; forcing a compatibility break will be a hard sell. That's also good for developers whose sales may have a longer tail. (In fact, Microsoft looks to have been fairly close to getting here except that they moved to PowerPC for the 360 shortly before Apple moved away from it. It is funny to consider that this invites a return to the simple Atari-style numbering schemes, when newer systems simply had arbitrarily chosen names to differentiate them from what came before; Microsoft's more neutral "Scorpio" sounds better than "Neo" in this regard, at least).

A couple other things are obvious: Improvements in performance per watt / per die size area / per clock have all slowed down lately. I don't know if this is a permanent reality going forward or whether moving to new materials like Gallium compounds will allow faster clock speeds, but right now it appears to me that many performance increases will be slow in coming (putting aside the inefficiency of the current AMD X86-64 architectures prior to Zen). The simple result of this is that you probably don't need to fear annual console updates, though I'd question whether that's actually something to be fearful of.

The apparent failure of Kinect and the ho-hum response to VR thus far also appear to be relieving product planners and gamers of the pressure to try and leverage "new gaming paradigms" to sell systems, when those sales were really more driven by the ecosystems (community and existing games).

And finally, depending on what the new backwards compatibility standards - like PS4's "base" mode - hold, we might see technical improvements in games. For certain PS4 Neo titles must render at 1080p, minimum, instead of 900p upscaled or some rubbish. I don't see any information about framerate targets, but I couldn't overemphasize how important something like this would be towards making consoles first-class gaming systems again. Of course, Eurogamer questions whether some of the requirements couldn't actually cause competitive handicapping of one system compared to another, so the details matter, at least if you're interested in multiplayer or score competitions.
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Re: The PS4 thread

Post by Domino »

I'm back,

so I got four physical PS4 titles (Puyo Puyo Tetris, Caladrius Blaze, Assault Suit Leynos, and that Touhou PS4 title). I already pre-ordered Wild Guns Reloaded and Rez Infinite physical copies. Planning to get M2 releases and perhaps some mainstream titles here and there (Ace Combat, etc.).

I still don't have a PS4 at this time, but debating to go Slim or Pro. I don't own a 4K TV but I heard it might be wise to get Pro so if you upgrade to 4k, you will be ready.

What do you think I mean, with the titles I'm planning to get, they are arcade like titles with not big focus on graphics.
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Re: The PS4 thread

Post by Shelcoof »

Domino wrote:I'm back,

so I got four physical PS4 titles (Puyo Puyo Tetris, Caladrius Blaze, Assault Suit Leynos, and that Touhou PS4 title). I already pre-ordered Wild Guns Reloaded and Rez Infinite physical copies. Planning to get M2 releases and perhaps some mainstream titles here and there (Ace Combat, etc.).

I still don't have a PS4 at this time, but debating to go Slim or Pro. I don't own a 4K TV but I heard it might be wise to get Pro so if you upgrade to 4k, you will be ready.

What do you think I mean, with the titles I'm planning to get, they are arcade like titles with not big focus on graphics.
Pro makes more sense. The PS4 hardware is already outdated. With the Pro you know at least newer games would be running at its most optimal.

Pro could be a waste like the extra power the NEW 3DS never uses but at least you know if they want to go in that direction you'd be safe.
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Re: The PS4 thread

Post by evil_ash_xero »

I picked up a PS4 Pro, earlier this month. It was an impulse buy at 1:30 in the morning. Drove straight to Wal-Mart, and was like "take me to your Pros!".

The whole reason I got one was because of The Last Guardian running so badly on my normal PS4. And I knew some games coming up were going to take advantage of it, so...like I said, impulse buy.

I don't have much to say about it yet. TLG runs very smoothly on it. I haven't seen any games look "wow so much better!" on it. I'm playing the Nier Automata demo, and it is optimized for the Pro (I think...I know the full game will be). I've seen picture comparisons, and the difference isn't very much.

Nioh will be able to run at 60 frames at 1080P, instead of 720P.

I'm not sure what the PS4 is all about, really. Maybe we'll get more 60fps patches in the future. That would make it worth it.
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Re: The PS4 thread

Post by evil_ash_xero »

What games are you guys looking forward to in 2017?
A number of games I thought were going to come out this year were pushed back. So, I didn't get much this year.
In terms of fully new games, all I got was DKS III and TLG.

I'm excited about Nier and Nioh, having played demos/betas of both of them. I think they're going be a great way to start the year.

Also interested in Ni no Kuni 2, but not digging the main character's design AT ALL.
Ace Combat 7 could be good.

There's no way we're going to get Dragon Quest XI, in the West, next year. But I'm very interested in that.

I'm still waiting to hear more about Vanillaware's "13 Sentinels", which was supposed to come out this year. And Platinum have a game called "Granblue Fantasy", which look like it could be interesting. Not low budget, but not higher budget. Maybe Anarchy Reigns budget. No one is talking about this game at all yet. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2OqO6RGJ14w

Anything you guys are looking forward to?
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Re: The PS4 thread

Post by BulletMagnet »

Gravity Rush 2 was delayed to January, there's a demo for that one too. Yakuza 0 is also out next month; IIRC Kiwami will arrive later this year and 6 will be sometime next year.
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Re: The PS4 thread

Post by Mero »

Moron question: will the Pro still improve performance without a 4k telly?
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Re: The PS4 thread

Post by iconoclast »

Next year, I'll definitely buy:
Persona 5 - Probably GOTY
Earth Defense Force 5 - Possible GOTY
Nier Automata - Possible GOTY if the story is anywhere near Nier's level.
Nioh
Yakuza 0
Yakuza Kiwami
Danganronpa 3
Ys VIII & Tokyo Xanadu eX - If they're out in NA

These should all be great, but EDF5 is the only one that isn't an RPG or visual novel. Hopefully there's some more variety (it's about time for a new Mikami game).

I'm not sold on these, but I'm interested:
Gravity Rush 2 - The last game was really good, but it's not something I'd want to pay full price for.
Resident Evil 7 - Haven't payed any attention to this since the reveal, which didn't leave a good impression. Maybe they've shown stuff that makes it look more interesting, I dunno.
Ace Combat 7 - I've only played AC6. It was fine.
MvC Infinite - Need to see how full matches look first.
Yooka-Laylee - Banjo-Kazooie clone, might be cool.
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Re: The PS4 thread

Post by neorichieb1971 »

Of all the Pro vs PS4 comparisons I have seen ,none warrant the expenditure of buying another console.

I heard lots of worried concerns 18 months ago when this story broke of the Pro and I think its been realized. Segmenting the market into poor mans machine vs rich mans machine isn't the answer to dealing with the PC market.

Its about time devs decided if they are console or PC, and stick to it. Having these cross platform games being 8x better on PC than console is irrelevant if the game does not get ported.
This industry has become 2 dimensional as it transcended into a 3D world.
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Re: The PS4 thread

Post by evil_ash_xero »

neorichieb1971 wrote:Of all the Pro vs PS4 comparisons I have seen ,none warrant the expenditure of buying another console.

I heard lots of worried concerns 18 months ago when this story broke of the Pro and I think its been realized. Segmenting the market into poor mans machine vs rich mans machine isn't the answer to dealing with the PC market.

Its about time devs decided if they are console or PC, and stick to it. Having these cross platform games being 8x better on PC than console is irrelevant if the game does not get ported.
Other than TLG running properly on it, I wouldn't say it's worth a buy right now. And you said you really didn't want to play it anytime soon, so I wouldn't bother.

There is one neat aspect, but I don't know if it's more the controller or the system. But you can have it where there is a direct connecting from system to controller via USB. And by that, I mean it doesn't just charge it. Gets rid of the lag.
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Re: The PS4 thread

Post by evil_ash_xero »

BulletMagnet wrote:Gravity Rush 2 was delayed to January, there's a demo for that one too. Yakuza 0 is also out next month; IIRC Kiwami will arrive later this year and 6 will be sometime next year.

I played the demo to Gravity Rush 2, and thought it was pretty damn good. HOWEVER, I really don't like the amount of chatting in the last one. And this seems to have the same thing. I'll have to think it over. The positives may outweigh the negatives.

I hope they don't have you moving furniture around, like in the last one. This one was more battle oriented.
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Re: The PS4 thread

Post by neorichieb1971 »

If you look at youtubes of PS4 vs PS4 pro, the graphical leap is non existent. Its just that a few shadows are not drawn or a reflection is missing. For me to go out and buy a whole new console I would want night and day differences. I'd imagine most of the games that have already been released won't benefit as much as those coming along, but still.. its not enough.

I come from the camp that says graphics were fine a long time ago and didn't need upgrading. I think the last time I was wow'd was in 1994 when I first saw Daytona. When is the last time someone said to you "wow look at those graphics?". It was probably at some point when someone last asked you the time.

A lot of people say the Switch will be under powered. So what? when is the last time a games graphics really let you down to the point where you said you weren't playing it? This forum of all places is a place where time stood still, where gameplay rules and you work around the limitations of what you have to make the game. Any dev who takes a $2000 PC model for a gaming benchmark and tries to put that on console is an idiot.
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Re: The PS4 thread

Post by evil_ash_xero »

The problem with the Switch being possibly underpowered is that 3rd party developers won't want to port their games to it. No so much the graphical difference.
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Re: The PS4 thread

Post by Opus131 »

When are they going to port Demon Souls and Dark Souls on PS4? That's the thing that will tip my decision to buy the system, when i get all muh Souls games in a single platform.
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Re: The PS4 thread

Post by Opus131 »

iconoclast wrote:Microsoft said their first party games will be native 4k.
Won't happen. Current consoles can barely do 1080p where is everybody getting this 4K stuff?
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Re: The PS4 thread

Post by system11 »

evil_ash_xero wrote: There is one neat aspect, but I don't know if it's more the controller or the system. But you can have it where there is a direct connecting from system to controller via USB. And by that, I mean it doesn't just charge it. Gets rid of the lag.
It's a function of the new dualshock 4, any PS4 can do it. I have noticed there's latency on the controller speaker though in this mode while not in bluetooth - very strange.

I'm skipping the pro for now, it just seems to make life difficult - who knows what half way house you end up with on each title.

It was a bad idea.
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Re: The PS4 thread

Post by Domino »

I want to pick up Wipeout Omega Collection next year and perhaps AC7. I have no regrets on getting a Slim since it was $207 new to me. For the AAA titles not really anything.
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Re: The PS4 thread

Post by bigbadboaz »

I'm skipping the pro for now, it just seems to make life difficult - who knows what half way house you end up with on each title.
Unfortunately, it's the base users who are going to get the worst of this moving forward, not the Pro users.
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Re: The PS4 thread

Post by evil_ash_xero »

It doesn't seem to be much a jump. Are there any titles that really show off it's power? Does it have enough power to show anything impressive?
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Re: The PS4 thread

Post by gameoverDude »

Consoles' draw for me is their catalog of exclusives, and arcade ports that are usually not so demanding compared to PC titles. Motion control games (including gun titles like Time Crisis 5) are also suited to a larger TV and surrounding floor area. Though I gladly use 5K DSR on a 1440p monitor for PC games and enjoy it, I am willing to give up 4K on console for now. The frame rate is more important.

Sony should put a High Framerate mode in the PS4 Pro that would give you the option to limit the games to the PS4 graphic spec, only with the Pro's extra power being used to afford higher framerates.
orange808 wrote: Ultra in new PC games will be designed to push the GTX 1080. This modest PlayStation upgrade can't handle that kind of load.
A PS4 Pro would probably have to settle for Very High (with maybe a few settings dialed down to Medium-High). When PS5 comes out, I'm sure the top-end PCs will still stay ahead. By then Nvidia might be on the 1200s. When getting a new Nvidia card I usually buy the x80 or x80 Ti of that series. The Titan is overkill.

I'm still on the fence about the PS4 Pro.
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Re: The PS4 thread

Post by neorichieb1971 »

Since the main upgrade of the Pro is the GPU I would imagine that would mean more shit moving on the screen. So games that need a busier screen will be better accommodated by the pro. Going back to Daytona arcade in 1994, it could do that shit that because it had powerful GPU's for the time. Its not easy shunting 40 cars around a track on the screen at the same time, take the GPU's out of the equation and you end up with the Saturn version :lol: . So perhaps a Daytona esque title would be able to push the Pro to its limits.

The 4k talk is just upscale talk. Making a game 1080p/60 and upscaling it is possibly the best scenario for a while and its all that is needed. I thought people were more interested in HDR.
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Re: The PS4 thread

Post by neorichieb1971 »

I've preordered RE 7, and i'm also interested in Yooka Laylee.
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Re: The PS4 thread

Post by BulletMagnet »

gameoverDude wrote:Sony should put a High Framerate mode in the PS4 Pro that would give you the option to limit the games to the PS4 graphic spec, only with the Pro's extra power being used to afford higher framerates.
Some of the individual games with Pro support apparently have that in their options menu someplace, with separate settings for "4K at 30 FPS" and "1080P at 60 FPS" to choose between. I only have a regular ol' PS4 myself (and it'll be a long time before an upgrade, if ever), but I do distinctly recall reading about that.
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Re: The PS4 thread

Post by HydrogLox »

evil_ash_xero wrote:It doesn't seem to be much a jump. Are there any titles that really show off it's power? Does it have enough power to show anything impressive?
gameoverDude wrote:When PS5 comes out, I'm sure the top-end PCs will still stay ahead. ... I'm still on the fence about the PS4 Pro.
My take:
  • If you already own a PS4 stick with it.
  • If you are only now getting into a PS4 get a PS4 Pro - don't be a knucklehead and buy a PS4 slim.
If you already own a PS4 hold on to it for now - another "iteration" may very well happen in another two years - and if that happens I expect games to surface that won't run on the original PS4 (and the slim for that matter) but all PS4 games will run on the latest iteration of the PS4 hardware.

My impression is that the phenomenon of "console generations" may have come to an end. On the hardware side both the Xbox One/PS4 are basically low-end PCs. And both run a proprietary OS tying it to an entertainment network. So they are already kind of set up for a much shorter hardware refresh cycle while continuing the "platform" in perpetuity. So I wouldn't be at all surprised to see games being published that won't run on hardware that had a launch date further than 4 years in the past.

So the Xbox One/PS4 platforms may be around for a long, long time but it may be necessary to update the hardware every 4 years or so if one wishes to remain current.

See also VideoGame Generation Predictions - Is This the Last Gen? - Adam Koralik (2014-01-21)
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Re: The PS4 thread

Post by TransatlanticFoe »

I'd be surprised if they do that, it makes it more difficult for customers to keep track of. More likely you get a new console name - much easier to say "PS5 plays PS5 and old PS4 games" than "PS4 2017 edition is the only thing that plays new PS4 games but it'll play old PS4 games too".

Aren't all PS4 games non-Pro and you have to download an update for Pro features?
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