R-Type is complete rubbish

[Skykid]

I actually rather like Leo. Sure, it's nowhere near as mechanically involved as earlier entries, but I kind of like its simple charm. The homing power shot is fun to use.

I love Leo, but I think that's because it's not an R-Type game at all. More like rebadged Thunder Force.

[Emuser]

R-Type Final on PC at 90 FPS is the best.

[gray117]

Unless you've got very cool parents I don't think anyone grows up with cave/touhou but rather has to go and seek them out.

So with that in mind I'm sure touhou or cave kids would still find something to appreciate; although they might find blazing star/pulstar more visually accessible.

... does nostalgia/historical importance place the original higher up the top 25 than it might seem justified in terms of plays per year, or a similar popularity metric; sure probably. But I don't think anyone would describe it as complete rubbish... unless perhaps they grew up thinking shooters were halo/cod...

[waiwainl]

I still enjoy both Cave and R-Type games. They are not the same genre.

[evil_ash_xero]

Question about Leo...

The JP version is like the old R-Types, where you have to go back through a part when you die.

People always talk about Leo being easy, but they're usually talking about the world version, where you just keep respawning, where you left off.

Anyone know which was the original design choice? Did the JP version come out first?

[trap15]

JP version is always standard.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Leo World's the more enjoyable though. Checkpoints respawning is lame, and the two button system is more intuitive and allows you to attack frontally with bullets while your option pods are out. Feels better balanced.

[To Far Away Times]

I much prefer the World version.

[trap15]

Heathens. The game was designed with checkpoints and without the separate force button. Checkpoints make you learn a section instead of just flailing through. It's a core tenant of the R-Type design, and one of the few things that keeps Leo from not being R-Type at all.

Not being able to shoot while using the force pods adds an element of strategy to using the force pods. If you're able to shoot while using them, you might as well use them constantly throughout the game without regard.

[To Far Away Times]

Not being able to shoot while using the force pods adds an element of strategy to using the force pods. If you're able to shoot while using them, you might as well use them constantly throughout the game without regard.

But that's sorta how you're supposed to play Leo. The relaxing, chill shmup. Listen to some cool music, blow up some shit. Effortlessly dispatching of enemies that would have been really troublesome in any other R-Type game...

I appreciated it for being different.

[Emuser]

One time, I played this game. Then I beat it.

[To Far Away Times]

I've played some "rubbish" easy shmups, but R-Type Leo isn't one of them. I think it took me around 4 days of dedicated playing to beat Leo, (Damn you pyramid and final stage), so it's not super hard, but it's not a total cakewalk either.

[trap15]

IT'S A CAKEWALK WHEN YOU PLAY WORLD VERSION

[Emuser]

Is JP harder than World outside of checkpoints

[trap15]

World has the force pods on a separate button so you can still shoot while using them. It dumbs the game down a lot.

[Skykid]

JP version is totally superior IMO, I always thought world was busted: you respawn instantly with your weaponry powered down. Checkpoints always throw something to get you back up to speed and as Trap15 said the force pod homing feels like proper strategy since it temporarily disables your fire, so you use it as a sweeping mechanism - being able to fire during its use defeats the purpose.

[Squire Grooktook]

My favorite thing about Leo is the sheer viciousness of the pods homing lunge. Endlessly entertaining to unleash upon unsuspecting monsters.

[CIT]

JP version is totally superior IMO, I always thought world was busted: you respawn instantly with your weaponry powered down. Checkpoints always throw something to get you back up to speed and as Trap15 said the force pod homing feels like proper strategy since it temporarily disables your fire, so you use it as a sweeping mechanism - being able to fire during its use defeats the purpose.

^This.

Japan version is the definitive version of the game.

[cools]

Having owned both, I vastly prefer playing the World version. Mind you, getting my hand to continue tapping fire whilst holding the pod button simply doesn't happen - so other than the checkpoints and English it plays exactly the same as the Japanese one.

Unless using an autofire setup, of course.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Checkpoints are dumb in any shmup. The whole point of extra lives is to have a fallback disposable resource that helps you at points you're having particular trouble getting through without getting hit. Checkpoints basically plant a brick wall in front of any player who has a hard time passing one specific section and vacuums their lives repeatedly until they get a gameover or pass the section after multiple repeats, when it'd be much better/smoother for pacing just to do away with them. Bombs are basically an extension of the same idea, except you need skill to use them right before you're hit.

Not to mention checkpoints allow for all sorts of stupid scoring abuse. Case in point: a good 10 minutes of this run consists of killing the final boss and suiciding right after for the ridiculous point bonus you get. It's incredibly metagamey and silly, and is highly amusing to watch if you didn't realize this was possible before, but isn't terribly enjoyable to actually do if you're playing for score since the strategy is woefully repetitive. Can you imagine what this would be like in shmups with serious scoring systems where this could really be abused?

I'm okay with them in platformers though. In Megaman for instance, checkpoints aren't an issue because you have a number of resources available (you don't die in one hit except to extremely nasty things, you have multiple weapons, you can progress through levels at your pace, etc). Checkpoints just don't feel natural when they're in shmups to me.

The current R-Type Leo scoreboard has 26 entries for World revision and 4 entries for Japan. Make of that what you will.

IT'S A CAKEWALK WHEN YOU PLAY WORLD VERSION

So you've 1CC'ed Leo on World revision?

[CIT]

Checkpoints are dumb in any shmup. The whole point of extra lives is to have a fallback disposable resource that helps you at points you're having particular trouble getting through without getting hit. Checkpoints basically plant a brick wall in front of any player who has a hard time passing one specific section and vacuums their lives repeatedly until they get a gameover or pass the section after multiple repeats, when it'd be much better/smoother for pacing just to do away with them. Bombs are basically an extension of the same idea, except you need skill to use them right before you're hit.

Not to mention checkpoints allow for all sorts of stupid scoring abuse. Case in point: a good 10 minutes of this run consists of killing the final boss and suiciding right after for the ridiculous point bonus you get. It's incredibly metagamey and silly, and is amusing to watch, but isn't terribly enjoyable to actually do if you're playing for score since the strategy is woefully repetitive. Can you imagine what this would be like in shmups with serious scoring systems where this could really be abused?

It just sounds like you lack the patience for games with checkpoints. Which is fine, but don't call them dumb.

The point of checkpoints is to prevent the player from cheesing through a section. Shit like the strategies described in the current Dodonpachi thread — i.e. "get to the last stage with three lives and you can bombspam to the end" — won't fly in a Gradius. A lot of old games are more about just clearing the game, with scoring an afterthought.

The current R-Type Leo scoreboard has 26 entries for World revision and 4 entries for Japan. Make of that what you will.

It only has 4 entries for World version too. The other 22 are "unknown version".

[Jeneki]

I don't mind the concept of checkpoints. They should be great for practice, like a savestate but legit built into the game.

... if you didn't lose any power or speed when you go back to that checkpoint.

Actually, Gradius is an interesting example of checkpoints. The game ranks down so much after a death that it doesn't seem so bad.

[ACSeraph]

I don't mind the concept of checkpoints. They should be great for practice, like a savestate but legit built into the game.

... if you didn't lose any power or speed when you go back to that checkpoint.

I'd be 100% on board if it were designed this way.

[Skykid]

Checkpoints are dumb in any shmup. The whole point of extra lives is to have a fallback disposable resource that helps you at points you're having particular trouble getting through without getting hit. Checkpoints basically plant a brick wall in front of any player who has a hard time passing one specific section and vacuums their lives repeatedly until they get a gameover or pass the section after multiple repeats, when it'd be much better/smoother for pacing just to do away with them.

Depends on the game. If you die and your weaponry resets to zero checkpoints often are designed to allow you to recapture one or two power ups in the process of learning not to make the same mistake twice.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

It just sounds like you lack the patience for games with checkpoints. Which is fine, but don't call them dumb.

They are dumb, because the way they're used is dumb. I've played them and beaten a few (Terra Force, Formation Armed F, etc), and the ones I've enjoyed I thought were enjoyable, but that they would have been better without checkpoints. Though those are a bit less punishing in that it's fairly easy to recover from death (at least by comparison to others I've played).

... if you didn't lose any power or speed when you go back to that checkpoint.

Yes, this is what makes them particularly aggravating. The unusual thing is that there's no checkpoint shmups like this as far as I can tell, because by the time modern shmups that didn't seriously drain you of power on a death came around, checkpoints had gone out of style. I haven't heard of a checkpoint shmup that doesn't have a serious power penalty (or any kind of speed/power penalty).

Gradius V becomes sort of an acceptable checkpoint shmup if you turn checkpoints on; you take a serious hit to power on a death, but your hitbox is so tiny and it's generally much easier to recharge, that recovery is nowhere near the chore it can be in other checkpoint shmups.

Actually, Gradius is an interesting example of checkpoints. The game ranks down so much after a death that it doesn't seem so bad.

This seems like it would be annoying though in that you'd get used to dying at the checkpoint, then beating it at low rank compared to having to learn to beat it at the rank you normally reach that checkpoint. The same thing seems to happen in the Parodius games, and it's really annoying. I remember this section:



Reaching it at full rank means tons of penguins spawning that fire shots. Die once? Penguins that fire nothing whatsoever. It means you get one shot to practice it at max rank, and then after it sort of gives you a free pass... but if it's going to do that, why put a checkpoint in to make me do it over at low rank? I'd rather take the death, and keep playing without such drastic rank changes as opposed to getting booted back on a death but with the rank so toned down that it's no longer difficult... but maybe that's just me?

I don't think that many checkpoint games have such massive rank changes as far as I can tell. Maybe it was a Konami thing?

[Ed Oscuro]

If Gradius is one of the first game types to intentionally create new game mechanics (of course Xevious was there too), then R-Type is just about the first physics-based game.

It's interesting how the risk / reward balance issue crops up over and over. I personally prefer (I think I'm in agreement with Roo here) that risk/reward doesn't involve more deliberate or slow-paced charge attacks to keep track of - though Mystic Riders and Tengai are fine games indeed. But it's my preference to deal with not shooting for score in Raiden Fighters better than it is to deal with the force pod, which I never really warmed up to. However it does allow you to do some interesting things. I'd just rather drop things in place and be able to move around quickly and freely. Obviously, I'm having some difficulty really defining this well, so I can't guarantee that I'm not being misled by other factors, but I think I know what I'm on about.

Checkpoints and power-downs probably wouldn't have made it into games if gameplay length long and to cordon off some content (for the purposes of encouraging more quarters / yen coins into the slot) weren't at issue. I'm having trouble seeing how they could be made to appear organic - that said, many other interesting mechanics have entirely arbitrary or undignified origins, too. And as bad as the checkpoint mechanic might seem, in a different context it seems pretty natural - waves in a horde 3D shooter for example. So, context matters very much here.

[Special World]

Shit like the strategies described in the current Dodonpachi thread — i.e. "get to the last stage with three lives and you can bombspam to the end" — won't fly in a Gradius.

That's not a problem with a lack of checkpoints. If anything, that's a problem with giving the player too many resources. It's not an issue in... pretty much any other Cave game? Also I don't think you can really just straight bombspam the entire way through, or else I would have beaten the game already.

Contrary to what somebody else said, I don't think Gradius's checkpoints are totally fair. You definitely have to work yourself out of a huge rut when you die in Gradius.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

That's not a problem with a lack of checkpoints. If anything, that's a problem with giving the player too many resources. It's not an issue in... pretty much any other Cave game?

Agreed. Even in Dodonpachi, the game is a stage longer than many Cave games, so the extra number of bombs you get throughout the game kind of balance out. The last couple of stages are also a good deal tougher than the final stages in Mushi, Galuda, Futari... at least they feel that way to me. You do get a lot of bombs, but not so much to the point where it's LOL EASY MODE either...

[Bananamatic]

That's not a problem with a lack of checkpoints. If anything, that's a problem with giving the player too many resources. It's not an issue in... pretty much any other Cave game?

Agreed. Even in Dodonpachi, the game is a stage longer than many Cave games, so the extra number of bombs you get throughout the game kind of balance out. The last couple of stages are also a good deal tougher than the final stages in Mushi, Galuda, Futari... at least they feel that way to me. You do get a lot of bombs, but not so much to the point where it's LOL EASY MODE either...

stages 5 and 6 together are as long as stage 5 in most cave games

[Lilium]

When did 4 extends become too many resources for 45 minute long games that are hard for most of it.