Companies that are falling apart, or have fallen apart

[replayme]

considering that this holiday season is rammed to the brim with quality titles,

So, what games this holiday season do you consider quality?

house of the dead: overkill (extended edition)
uncharted 3
dodonpachi
goldeneye ps3
zelda
rayman origins

[MR_Soren]

I remember when they were making fantastic games for the Atari 2600

Wait. Fantastic games for Atari 2600?

Megamania and Pitfall II come to mind.

Can I chalk Apple down as a company that will fall apart?

Indeed, both of those were fantastic games. Also had a lot of fun playing Chopper Command.

Apple? Not sure if they will fall apart. They've got competition on all sides, lost their leader, etc, but they're still in a solid position and I don't think that will change for at least a few years.

[antron]

Apple? Not sure if they will fall apart. They've got competition on all sides, lost their leader, etc, but they're still in a solid position and I don't think that will change for at least a few years.

I know, just troll'n. I'm just not a fan.

Commodore > Apple

[Arcade Legends 3]

The best videogames had been already made. For some reasons, modern arcade software does not contain "microelements", or "microswitches", which the older games possess. Personally I am a retro player, 1990-2003. I do not care about the videogaming industry - but it is obvious that the quality will become lower and lower.

Why is that obvious?

At first place it is the most obvious thing, the graphics - they are too beautiful, thus developers becoming misguided. Any graphics from 2,048 colours up and from 320x240 pixels up are debilitating for the brain; how more, so more. One can do a simple experiment - retraling from any monitors (CRT TVs being the only exception) for a month, then to play for a few hours something in 500 colours and on the next day - same but with 100,000 colours; he should note some difference in his overral feeling.
For example, one could use "Gallop: Armed Police Unit" and "Deathsmiles 2" or "GunNail" and "Mushihime-sama: Latest Edition".
There are few other things, but I am lazy to think of them right now. Yesterday I was on nutmeg (extract).

p.s. Retraling from monitors for a month could be a heavy task for a large part of the forum's members, though.

[tinotormed]

A true warrior fallen is Irem.

Also Bullfrog. Their logo on the box pretty much meant 'quality, fun game right here'. Who can forget Syndicate, Theme Park and Dungeon Keeper?

Yeah, I really love Dungeon Keeper that it is really an awesome game that I played since I was so young. I am playing it again, BTW.

I also add Westwood, who couldn't forget Command and Conquer: Tiberian Dawn, Tiberian Sun, Red Alert 1 & 2, and Dune?

[ptoing]

At first place it is the most obvious thing, the graphics - they are too beautiful, thus developers becoming misguided. Any graphics from 2,048 colours up and from 320x240 pixels up are debilitating for the brain; how more, so more. One can do a simple experiment - retraling from any monitors (CRT TVs being the only exception) for a month, then to play for a few hours something in 500 colours and on the next day - same but with 100,000 colours; he should note some difference in his overral feeling.
For example, one could use "Gallop: Armed Police Unit" and "Deathsmiles 2" or "GunNail" and "Mushihime-sama: Latest Edition".
There are few other things, but I am lazy to think of them right now. Yesterday I was on nutmeg (extract).

p.s. Retraling from monitors for a month could be a heavy task for a large part of the forum's members, though.

This makes no sense whatsoever. by that logic the real world would be very debilitating for the brain. Also wtf does retraling mean? That is not an english word.

[antron]

Yesterday I was on nutmeg (extract).

yesterday?

[neorichieb1971]

Very few games companies want to experiment with weird ideas like they did in the 80's.

We need games companies that invent worlds where gameplay can be fun. Much in the way Avatar invented Pandora.

A totally 3D space harrier would be a piece of piss to make with todays technology and I often wonder why it is not made. Its simplicity in the 80's was what made it fun. I assume if it were made it would be crap due to the lack of innovative thinking.

[ptoing]

A lot of it has to do with safety and budget.
Companies like Square spend shitloads of money on their development so they have to make sure that things will sell. If they made a game on the budget of one of the FFs which would not sell that would be pretty bad for them. They simply can not afford it.

You can not really compare now to the 80s and 90s when the gaming industry was a lot younger. It has become a mass market since then. And thus we mainly get sequels and remakes, shit that the devs know will sell.

There are some quite crazy stories from back in the days. Like how Flashback was supposed to be a license game of The Godfather, but Paul Cuisset did not want to make a game in that setting again since he just made Cruise for a Corpse which is the same era as Godfather. So they just did something futuristic and they money-givers were OK with that, they were like, yes looks cool, keep at it. This would NEVER happen nowadays.

And then there is the story of Katamari Damacy which only got greenlit by Namco after Takahashi made a prototype of the game outside of Namco with students. And even then Namco higher-ups stated that they would not do something like this again.

It's sad but that's how it is.

That said, small, indie developers are gaining more ground because it is easier to distribute games now than it ever was before. So there is hope for innovation and experimentation.

[Sumez]

Very few games companies want to experiment with weird ideas like they did in the 80's.

I don't remember any more weird ideas in the 80's than we have now. Maybe you just don't know where to look, or have a rose tinted view of the 80's?

[neorichieb1971]

Games in the 80's were designed with 80's hardware in mind. Therefore the limitations brought out a creative mind. A mind in the 80's without limitation would often have produced a bag of shit.

A game that works within the limitations of the hardware is super mariokart. Even its sequels did nothing to improve the formula which as far as "GAMEPLAY" is concerned pretty much nailed it.

There is no reason a company has to go all "BALLS OUT" on a mega AAA budget on a new idea. You can create the skeleton of the game on a cheap budget and if it sells make the sequel something much bigger and better. Some day technology will be so cheap that making just about anything 3D will be as easy as typing a word document. When that happens I'm sure creativity will shine again. Until then GT6, Halo 12 and Killzone 16 are awaiting you.

I wanted a videogame crash after the PS2. I don't like shareholding companies making my games. I'd rather they be made with passion rather than just money.

[ptoing]

Some day technology will be so cheap that making just about anything 3D will be as easy as typing a word document.

You still need people who will make concepts and models and whatnot. Stuff like Z-Brush and so is getting easier, but it still is not trivial or "as easy as typing a word document" and I doubt it ever will be.

[neorichieb1971]

True, but cut and paste will still exist. 3D editors already exist in games. Its more about the 3d physics than anything. Besides most gamers like sitting in 3D shooting world right now which consists of moving forward/backwards, strafing and aiming.

surely in the next 5 years technology will allow some muppet to make a maze randomly and go shoot in it.

[ptoing]

And random mazes will make for a fun game you think? It would also take a muppet to enjoy that kinda stuff. There already are random level generators for Doom, but there is not much fun in those levels. It takes a human mind to make something that keeps you on your toes without being stupidly unfair.

[Sumez]

Obviously a lot of you guys have never tried making a game, let alone a 3D game

[ptoing]

Obviously a lot of you guys have never tried making a game, let alone a 3D game

QFT!

[Drum]

Very few games companies want to experiment with weird ideas like they did in the 80's.

I don't remember any more weird ideas in the 80's than we have now. Maybe you just don't know where to look, or have a rose tinted view of the 80's?

There were fucking tons of weird, experimenal games in the 80s. They positively humble today's efforts, even with the rise of internet garage developers. Though I do not share neorichie's view of a lack of creative modern games - there are lots.

And random mazes will make for a fun game you think? It would also take a muppet to enjoy that kinda stuff. There already are random level generators for Doom, but there is not much fun in those levels. It takes a human mind to make something that keeps you on your toes without being stupidly unfair.

Uh, roguelikes? Nethack is one of the best games ever made. That's not even arguable. Civilization makes good use of procedural generation as well - I'm sure you'll be able to explain what a mess Civilization is, and how only idiots would ever play it. It's very possible to design fair, interesting environment-generator. Minecraft is very good at this. Of course, these aren't 'random' generators - they've been carefully designed by people to harness randomness in interesting ways.

[ptoing]

Yeah, and roguelikes are super complex in their environments, right? Not really, neither is Minecraft. And Civilisation is a whole other thing. He was talking about FPS games. And to make a level for an FPS game takes more than just procedurally generating it. Who knows, perhaps it will be possible in the future to generate such levels that are fun to play, but I doubt they would ever be as fun as something made by a thinking human being.

There are many things which can be generated. Sudoku for example. But you will find that all people who play Sudoku somewhat seriously will be able to tell if the set they are playing was made by a person of if it was generated. It has to do with leading and surprising the player. I do not see how a procedural generated FPS map could ever pull that off in meaningful ways.

[Drum]

Yeah, and roguelikes are super complex in their environments, right? Not really, neither is Minecraft. And Civilisation is a whole other thing. He was talking about FPS games. And to make a level for an FPS game takes more than just procedurally generating it. Who knows, perhaps it will be possible in the future to generate such levels that are fun to play, but I doubt they would ever be as fun as something made by a thinking human being.

There are many things which can be generated. Sudoku for example. But you will find that all people who play Sudoku somewhat seriously will be able to tell if the set they are playing was made by a person of if it was generated. It has to do with leading and surprising the player. I do not see how a procedural generated FPS map could ever pull that off in meaningful ways.

Fair point, meaningful distinction - but I still think you'll be proven wrong (eventually - in some respects).
There's this indie online FPS called 'Love'. It has really great graphics, but the name is positively ungoogleable sorry I couldn't find a link, sorry.
I agree with you in the short term, but long term is a different matter.
Just Cause 2 makes use of prodecural generation though and that game is a real looker:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8BOtdFUDdFI
Of course, it had very talented designers making the assets and it doesn't generate terrain on the fly, so it's been chosen by people.

[louisg]

Uh, roguelikes? Nethack is one of the best games ever made. That's not even arguable. Civilization makes good use of procedural generation as well - I'm sure you'll be able to explain what a mess Civilization is, and how only idiots would ever play it. It's very possible to design fair, interesting environment-generator. Minecraft is very good at this. Of course, these aren't 'random' generators - they've been carefully designed by people to harness randomness in interesting ways.

I'd argue that both Civ and Nethack are simulation games. The difficulties of each playthrough depend largely on the random generation. For example, if you start on a small island in Civ, you're not likely to do very well compared to if you had started in an area where you'd have contact and trade with other tribes. Those games can be fun, and are an endless stream of interesting "what-if" scenarios, which is a lot of their appeal. But, they're also not a tightly designed and well-balanced experience in the way a game like Doom is. This is why I think it is probably either a mistake to design a pure action game around a random environment, or at least it would be very challenging to get right.

The same goes for traditional adventure games (not dungeon crawlers)-- check out Adventure Construction Set's random mode if you want to see an absolute disaster

There were fucking tons of weird, experimenal games in the 80s. They positively humble today's efforts, even with the rise of internet garage developers. Though I do not share neorichie's view of a lack of creative modern games - there are lots.

Hell yeah. I feel like a lot of modern development, indie stuff included, is just covering ground that was tread in the 80s.

[ptoing]

I know about Love, and it does look pretty cool.

In the case of JC2, do you know how much of it is procedural? Does it use procedural bits between set pieces or how does it work.

About being "a real looker" I am not impressed. Hardly any of these "realistic" looking games do, but that's beside the point. I am sure procedural generation will get better but let me do an analogy.

A story which is procedurally generated from set bits and pieces which have certain correlations programmed in.

A story written by a good author which has a proper story arch and details which are well thought out as well as believable three dimensional characters.

See the difference?

[kid aphex]

At first place it is the most obvious thing, the graphics - they are too beautiful, thus developers becoming misguided. Any graphics from 2,048 colours up and from 320x240 pixels up are debilitating for the brain; how more, so more.

p.s. Retraling

Go easy on the nutmeg

p.s. retraling

[mrsmiley381]

I know about Love, and it does look pretty cool.

In the case of JC2, do you know how much of it is procedural? Does it use procedural bits between set pieces or how does it work.

About being "a real looker" I am not impressed. Hardly any of these "realistic" looking games do, but that's beside the point. I am sure procedural generation will get better but let me do an analogy.

A story which is procedurally generated from set bits and pieces which have certain correlations programmed in.

A story written by a good author which has a proper story arch and details which are well thought out as well as believable three dimensional characters.

See the difference?

The trick is not to design a story via procedural generation, but to design a world via procedural generation where the player's actions become the story. Go check out the Dwarf Fortress forums and you'll run across players that encountered some seriously awesome stuff that makes for a good story.

Example: The Hamlet of Tyranny

Of course, it takes a long time for something like this to happen, but it does happen. I find this more interesting than the static campaigns in so many games that end written into a corner with a giant antimatter railgun, like in Red Faction Guerrilla.

[ptoing]

I see where you are coming from and I am aware of DF. Tho the generation that is going on in DF is a lot less involved than what you would need for an AAA title for example.

I do not know Red Faction Guerrilla, but good stories in games are few and far between anyway, that is something that hopefully will change at some point.

[Estebang]

Treasure showed they were still serious about making new stuff with Sin & Punishment 2 (easily the best thing on the Wii), but I'm worried they'll have nothing else to show after porting their entire back catalog to XBLA. At least they've staunchly refused to develop for smartphones.

I guess they were already silent for a few years after Ikaruga, and they certainly came back from that, though.

Arc System Works is a great studio--they're the only one left who's still able to make any real money off of traditional pixel art, and they've got the Persona 4 game in the pipeline. But the disastrous Hard Corps reboot and the failed experiment of Guilty Gear 2 proved that they have no business making anything besides fighters.

[Sumez]

I'm fairly sure the stuff Arc System is doing is hand drawn, not pixel art.
It's still great though.

[neorichieb1971]

My argument up above was more down to 3D random generated games taking a % of the skill factor away from making a FPS game. I do understand that certain terrains that are man made can be more challenging or fun, but they can be tweaked in or added into a random generated field. Thats what an editor is. Isn't the unreal engine an editor anyway?

If people can make their own weapons and terrains the only thing left is the story which nobody gives a hoot about in most FPS games.

I'm hoping that the skills that make FPS games will someday make other types of games in a few years time. Action adventure type games I like :p


I am awaiting the next thing after mario 64, the game that goes beyond 3D. But also waiting for more interesting ways to utilize 3D. I used to like horror/3D but that has become more action 3D these days.

If the next big thing is going to make a company rich, why are companies not making the next big thing? Sitting idly by and regurgitating stuff. This generation of hardware (console wise) is getting old and boring to me.

[Sumez]

Deliberately designed maps and procedurally generated are completely different concepts, whether you're talking 3D or 2D, and FPS, RPGs, etc. I don't see the need to even discuss it?

We're talking extremely different kinds of games here - procedural generation is a huge part of Minecraft, Diablo 2 and Nethack and they'd be a COMPLETELY different game without them. On the other hand, an ingenious title like Dark Souls owes so much to its incredibly well designed world and the challenges within it. Stuff like this could NEVER be generated.

Assets is a different question of course, and the Elder Scrolls games is just one obvious example of large parts of a world (especially vegetation, etc.) being generated automatically, based on general guidelines laid out by the map designers.

[burgerkingdiamond]

I do not care about the videogaming industry - but it is obvious that the quality will become lower and lower.

I find your lack of faith disturbing.

really Skykid? you don't see the game industry as going to complete shit? Because I do. Everythings going towards digital distribution. Companies starting to charge for online passes (I don't play these types of games in the first place but it still disturbs me).

I guess that my tastes have narrowed a lot. For example I loved God of War I and II in the PS2 heyday. But I didn't even pick up God of War III. It just doesn't appeal to me. The only mainstream games from this gen I've cared to play through has been Fallout III or SKATE. Bayonetta too, I didn't finish it but it's damn cool.

There is still life support for me because of all the great import shooters for 360. But overall it looks pretty bleak to me.

[Sumez]

God of War 1 and especially 2 ARE really great games. 3 not so much. Doesn't have anything to do with a decline of the game industry as such, it's pretty common for sequels to go that way when they become cash cows, while the creative minds create other fun IPs.