Japan and lolis...what's with this exactly?

[antron]

Are you helping me prove my point against you, or... ?

Oh, you think that because people who play violent games don't kill people then people who like kiddy porn don't rape children?

[ncp]

I don't know about you but we're talking about anime here, no?

edit: since you seem to be confused here, be sure that I'm certainly NOT defending child porn, only pointing out some things to you. There's a difference between "loli" anime and actual child porn; do you not think that someone who enjoys ACTUAL gore/death is probably a more violent person than someone who just enjoys playing video games? I would definitely make a case that, for the most part, those who watch hentai are NOT into child porn.

If you think that anime is just as harmful as the real thing, how would you suggest it be enforced? Fictional characters have no real age. You can't just say "well this LOOKS too young", as different artists have different styles, there's no defined line here.

Personally, I think it's awful to enforce actual age limits for FICTIONAL characters. I personally wouldn't be affected by it (not really even into loli myself), but it's the principle of giving rights to fiction. Should they be protected from murder, too? Should they be given ANY OTHER RIGHTS? Why would they be given THIS right? That is what I'm trying to prove, here, is that fictional characters should never be given rights.

[UnscathedFlyingObject]

If they just gave 2D lolis marriage rights, the whole problem
would disappear in a couple decades.

[ncp]

me in the tuxedo

[Dandy J]

theyre cute

[Skykid]

theyre cute

They're children.

[UnscathedFlyingObject]

theyre cute

They're children.

They're DRAWINGS.

[Stormwatch]

Sex sells. Youth is sexy. Evolution explains it. Nuff said.

[antron]

Sex sells. Youth is sexy. Evolution explains it. Nuff said.

evolution explains rape too. that doesn't make it moral.

[ncp]

[Stormwatch]

Can evolution explain Skeeter's color?

[Specineff]

theyre cute

They're children.

They're DRAWINGS.

IT'S A TRAP!

[Ex-Cyber]

Fictional characters have no real age. You can't just say "well this LOOKS too young"

Lawmakers and judges apparently can say that. Several countries have laws barring depictions that "appear to be" of minors or children, and at least a couple of courts have ruled that this does not require the image to depict a real person (most famously in the recent Australia case involving Simpsons porn). I don't know that anyone's explicitly brought up the "she's a 1400-year-old demoness" defense, but I'm guessing it wouldn't get very far.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

Pesonally what bothers me most about loli and all the other otaku crap thats very generic and borering is that its bloody everywhere. I remember when i first got into anime with akira, 3x3 eyes and cyber police and even tank poilce although that catgirl striptease was the shit! and prolly the reason why i have a mild fetish for cat girls . What drew me to amine wasnt just the great art work and animation which was and still is way better then what comes from the west, Most of all though it was the japanese way of storytelling was leagues ahead of anything western. The western stuff i found was too pradictable as i could usually work out halfway through a show how the story would end which would allways be an happy ending no matter what.

Compare this to what was comming from Japan where lead characters would die and the good guy didnt always win made it so that i didnt have a fucking clue how the plot would of progressed. JUst look at FF7 or Phantasy star 2.


Today though i find more and more animes, manga and games been just way too generic both with over cutesy artwork and the story telling aswell. Sure theres still some plot twists but many of them i can guess before hand roughly what itll be and its not anything thatll make me sit up and say wow i wasnt expecting that. THere still is some gems to be found like the plot twists in code guiess especially the last episode. But there is allot of other generec shit to shit though to find the really good stuff.

I guess everyone just likes to go for where the market and money is and unfortunatly uninspired generic trash is what sells best.

[greg]

I agree completely. Anime these days is mostly manufactured moe and is lifeless. Cookie cutter character personalities that seem to be generated by a simple computer program, etc. Anime is made to appeal to the Japanese otaku crowd to survive, and that's what they're into. It's almost an incestuous relationship. They don't make many decent anime anymore. There are some decent newer manga series at least.

[greg]

Lawmakers and judges apparently can say that. Several countries have laws barring depictions that "appear to be" of minors or children, and at least a couple of courts have ruled that this does not require the image to depict a real person (most famously in the recent Australia case involving Simpsons porn). I don't know that anyone's explicitly brought up the "she's a 1400-year-old demoness" defense, but I'm guessing it wouldn't get very far.

Apparently there was some anime aired on TV in Japan that censored only the small-breasted girl was censored, but the big-breasted one, even though they're both 19 years old. Here's the link, definitely NSFW website. It's stupid. If it's a character that so obviously looks like a pre-teen child, then that is unquestionably sick. But if it's a character who is of a normal age and just doesn't have big bonkers, then it's ridiculous to look at them as kiddie porn. It only fosters an unhealthy view of women and how their bodies are supposed to look like. I have a little daughter, and I really don't want her to play with Barbie dolls since they give bad ideas of what a woman ought to appear like. She needs to know that a woman can be beautiful, regardless of the size of her bustline. Guys can dig small busts, and it doesn't make them perverts.

I have no idea about the Simpsons porn you mentioned though. I would much rather not imagine what that would be like. A bunch of 4-fingered yellow naked bodies? Ugh.

EDIT: I didn't realize I had just double posted. Sue me.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Today though i find more and more animes, manga and games been just way too generic both with over cutesy artwork and the story telling aswell. Sure theres still some plot twists but many of them i can guess before hand roughly what itll be and its not anything thatll make me sit up and say wow i wasnt expecting that. THere still is some gems to be found like the plot twists in code guiess especially the last episode. But there is allot of other generec shit to shit though to find the really good stuff.

I guess everyone just likes to go for where the market and money is and unfortunatly uninspired generic trash is what sells best.

...or the novelty just has worn thin for you and what used to be new and fresh is no more. I played through Xenogears last year and found the story being corny and predictable (still better than the "gameplay"). Perhaps in the year 1998 I would have found it Super Awesome, but all these years of j-popculture grind made me jaded when it comes to jRPG, anime etc. plots.
As for the anime nowadays, you wouldn't expect the majority of it to be any good, would you? The majority of everything is cack and it's always been the case. People who watch every new subbed show only because it just came out (when they certainly haven't seen many oldies worth watching) are asking for major disapponiment.
Some recent shows I enjoyed: Tokyo Magnitude 8.0 (sadly, the animation is nowhere near BONES' finest achevements in this regard), the 2nd Suzumiya Haruhi... season (most uncompromising anime I've seen in years; choke on it), K-On! (I've got a soft spot for such anti-sensational storytelling). I've yet to see the most recent Gintama seasons, but it was one life-saviour of a show back in the day and as long as it keeps going, there is hope for the future.
Still, I could use new adventure series along the lines of Eureka Seven and Last Exile. Something grand and astonishing from BONES, Sunrise or Gonzo again...

[GaijinPunch]

Apparently there was some anime aired on TV in Japan that censored only the small-breasted girl was censored, but the big-breasted one, even though they're both 19 years old. Here's the link, definitely NSFW website.

Shocking. I didn't think people watched TV in Japan b/c it's so lame.

[Skykid]

theyre cute

They're children.

They're DRAWINGS.

They're depictions.

[Ruldra]

Here's the link, definitely NSFW website.

First time someone linked me to that site (while having no idea what it was about), right at the front page there were some pics of a 8-yr-old anime girl pulling down her panties in front of her teacher. I honestly thought I was going to jail just for checking the link.

[greg]

Shocking. I didn't think people watched TV in Japan b/c it's so lame.

Ha! Good one. That is so true.

First time someone linked me to that site (while having no idea what it was about), right at the front page there were some pics of a 8-yr-old anime girl pulling down her panties in front of her teacher. I honestly thought I was going to jail just for checking the link.

I wouldn't doubt it. The site does seem to attract the closet-pedophiles from 4chan.

For depictions of nekkid anime characters who are clearly not even twelve years old, I'd say it really, _really_ depends on the context. If the intention is to excite and to tantalize through the sexual portrayal of minors, real or not, it is obscene. If it isn't sexualized, then there is no problem with that. I cannot imagine anyone who isn't a complete pinhead getting offended by the bath scene in My Neighbor Totoro. Mei and Setsuko are taking a bath with their father. Western eyes may be offended, but it's a part of life in Japan. I was just reading the Disgaea 2 manga today and there's a scene with Rozalin (17years old) taking a bath with Hanako (9). Nothing sexual or dirty. Some predictable gags about breast size, but otherwise no big deal. Heck, I've seen Bart Simpson's bare butt on more than a few episodes, and the whole beginning part of the Simpsons Movie has him completely naked skating through town, with penis jokes and everything. Now, contrast that to something I saw in plain sight at a Mandarake shop in Shibuya a few years back, with a pic of an obvious little girl child, naked, posed very sexually, with full-on genitalia. I would've thought that this would be outlawed even in Japan.

I don't know that anyone's explicitly brought up the "she's a 1400-year-old demoness" defense, but I'm guessing it wouldn't get very far.

But Etna is a 1400 year old demoness! I don't care what you say! Besides, there isn't anything child-like about her. Just youthful.

[ncp]

Some recent shows I enjoyed: ... K-On! (I've got a soft spot for such anti-sensational storytelling)

It's funny because this was the exact kind of show he was complaining about. The main focus of the show is highschool girls being cute. EXCITING.

edit: @greg Etna is like the definition of loli (at least as far as character design goes), please tell me you aren't serious

[Ruldra]

For depictions of nekkid anime characters who are clearly not even twelve years old, I'd say it really, _really_ depends on the context.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxY0ul6teBE#t=20s

[Taylor]

The manga for Kodomo no Jikan was going to get a western release but was halted after translation due to it being, well, Kodomo no Jikan.

Also: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tZdrD1eahY
(Actually, the conclusion for this is on youtube. Probably shouldn't be, so if you click around watch out for NSFW).

[Obiwanshinobi]

Some recent shows I enjoyed: ... K-On! (I've got a soft spot for such anti-sensational storytelling)

It's funny because this was the exact kind of show he was complaining about. The main focus of the show is highschool girls being cute. EXCITING.

Well, I watched it and it reminds me of stuff such as Aria more than anything else. Certainly not "exciting". I don't think it ever was a prominent anime phenomenon.
P.S. Maybe the word "exciting" can be applied to that one scene, but Sawako-sensei doesn't exactly look like a schoolgirl.

[ncp]

Well, I watched it and it reminds me of stuff such as Aria more than anything else. Certainly not "exciting". I don't think it ever was a prominent anime phenomenon.

Are we talking about the same K-On... ?

[Obiwanshinobi]

Well, I watched it and it reminds me of stuff such as Aria more than anything else. Certainly not "exciting". I don't think it ever was a prominent anime phenomenon.

Are we talking about the same K-On... ?

You tell me. If you are implying it's all about fanservice and there is nothing else to it, neither character development, nor high production values, well, I beg to differ.
Sometimes I like films where fuck all happens. I'm not saying K-On! is up there with Stranger Than Paradise or anything, but Aria seems pretty close if you ask me.
Maybe for some people it's a massive moe-bow-legs-fetish galore first and foremost, but I don't even know such people, thus I'm not going to make up any Black Volga stuff about it.

[ncp]

I wasn't implying it was "all about fanservice and nothing else", and it certainly had high production values. I just don't think it was at all like Aria, which is far and away my favorite anime/manga. It was also VERY popular, so I didn't really understand the "don't think it ever was a prominent anime phenomenon".

[greg]

edit: @greg Etna is like the definition of loli (at least as far as character design goes), please tell me you aren't serious

Oh she totally is not. I really do not see her as a loli figure. She's mature, just DFC. Her body is at least that of a teenager's, and she doesn't act like a lolicon airhead either. She's smart and mature and cunning.

But on the other hand, as for this Kodomo No Jikan and that link Ruldra provided, WT fucking F? At 30 seconds in, the little girl is lifting up her skirt and dropping her panties in front of that salariman or teacher or whatever? The show should be called "Kodomo no Chikan."

So check this out, Ex-Cyber and ncp, this video is loli, not Etna. What makes it worse is that it involves an adult man. This video also illustrates the absurdity of the Australian ruling. Here you have an obvious child who inexplicably has boobs. (Maybe she was raised on soy infant formula as a baby?) Boobs do not make a woman a "woman." Putting boobs on a child's body is guilty of sexualizing children, not a mature girl with a flat chest. It's like that Chibi-Usa girl on Sailor Moon. She was a little girl, but she had titties, at least once she transformed to her Sailor whatever uniform. Where did those come from? So weird. For quite some time, anime had been depicting little girls with boobs before it was their time to have them. I guess censorship wouldn't be necessary if everyone has the common decency not to pull crap like this. Unfortunately, Japan is full of its own unique flavor of depravity.

I really don't get the whole loli thing. I wish Cave would stop cashing in on it. I miss the types of characters they did for Ketsui or Batsugun. At least Progear wasn't loli. Yes, they were young girls, but at least they didn't act like it (as far as I remember).

[TrevHead (TVR)]

...or the novelty just has worn thin for you and what used to be new and fresh is no more...

Yea you might be right in that aspect. Plus back in the day it helped having only the cream of the crop translated to english plus no tinternet so i didnt have to bother with the trash. Suzumiya Haruhi's endless eight wtf were the writers smoking? lol