Why shmups are such a niche genre

[Jockel]

Senko no Ronde DUO. A shmup that manages to combine the best of danmaku, arena shooting and a certain long-forgotten fighting game

Opinions may vary.
I found Senko no Ronde to be totally boring and not much of a shooter at all.

[S20-TBL]

I found Senko no Ronde to be totally boring and not much of a shooter at all.

Well, I don't know much about the first Ronde game (WarTech), but I was mentioning the sequel which is yet to be released in Japan on April 28th of this year. Still, it's looking pretty good from what's been shown so far, so I'll hold out on that first.

Now if G-Rev would actually make their videos showcase more gameplay instead of trying to explain every little nook and cranny of the game every 10 seconds with an annoying popup for 2 minutes before showing the actual battles.

[Rob]

Senko no Ronde DUO. A shmup that manages to combine the best of danmaku, arena shooting and a certain long-forgotten fighting game

Opinions may vary.
I found Senko no Ronde to be totally boring and not much of a shooter at all.

Same, I can enjoy the crappiest of shooters and still got no enjoyment from this game.

(case in point, someone suggested a shmup in which you are the bullet and you have to ram yourself into the enemy--not exactly a shmup anymore).

Galaxy Wars. It is, though.

[Jockel]

@S20-TBL: Anticipation has a habit to set you up for disappointment. (Thanks, Arctic Monkeys)
Grab the first game from a bargain bin somewhere, chances are you're not going to like it.

[Exarion]

Looking at other genres, I'd probably say the situation with shmups (outside of japan) is largely the same as the situation with adventure games and especially the former situation with roguelikes. The genre is limited to older games and a few relatively small new releases. Roguelikes became more popular with the release of pokemon mystery dungeon, while adventure games haven't really picked up, partially because the most recent major release in the genre, zack and wiki, didn't sell very well for whatever reason. Maybe if an established franchise creates a shmup spin off, the genre will pick up some? Or maybe Treasure's coming eventually shmup will help?

[gs68]

For one thing, here is a ripe design challenge presented to us. Is it absolutely necessary that almost all modern shmups be bullet hell variants? Can't they be more like, say, U.N. Squadron/Area 88, Strikers or Cho Ren Sha in which twitch playing and fast reflexes matter a little bit more than being able to squeeze between a barrage of tightly packed Pepto-Bismol pills? Or maybe anticipation, careful planning and strategy like Einhander's weapon management or R-Type's maze navigation? What about slightly unorthodox playing styles? Your ship could be using a boomerang (hats off to the SHMUP-DEV forumers who come here too, you guys rock) instead of your standard machine guns and lasers to kill things, among other means. Or bosses could be fought and killed using radically different methods than just plain shooting the core.

Unfortunately, with the popularity of Touhou and the infamy of Cave TLBs, I don't think the bullet hell trend is gonna go away soon. You give someone who only knows of Futari or DFK through their TLBs something like Raiden or Truxton II and they'll go "huh? A shmup that isn't bullet hell? Pfft, how hard or awesome could that possibly be?"

(Though I did convince someone that shmups didn't have to be 4th of July in bullet form to be difficult; I had them give the original Raiden a shot.)

[DEL]

Exarion wrote;

Or maybe Treasure's coming eventually shmup will help?

Except that Treasure have so far made Puzzle Games dressed up to look like shoot'em ups. So while its true that a number of previously mainstream gamers found 2D shoot'em ups through the mainstream western release of Ikaruga, it can also be said that they were initially attracted to a puzzle game. A bit ironic, but there you go...

gs68 wrote;

(Though I did convince someone that shmups didn't have to be 4th of July in bullet form to be difficult; I had them give the original Raiden a shot.)

I agree with your point, but the original Raiden is easy for the first loop. Raiden II or DX would prove your point though

[MmSadda]

Good point MmSadda.

Anyway, when it comes down to the main 'niche' question, it really all boils down to one thing -> accessibility.
2D Shoot'em ups have been buried by the developers and distributors. So much so that a lot of people don't even know they exist.

I was playing Mush in my local arcade a few years back and this guy came in and watched. He asked; "What kind of game is this?" I replied; "Its a shoot'em up". He answered; "What like Halo?"

He was looking at a 2D shooting game and STILL he couldn't connect the dots

That makes sense, but it seems like a "vicious cycle" - That is, because they appeal to a narrow audience, not many companies want to develop or publish them. Because there aren't very many being made, not many people are aware of them, so the potential audience shrinks.

and LOL at the kid in the arcade.

[MmSadda]

For one thing, here is a ripe design challenge presented to us. Is it absolutely necessary that almost all modern shmups be bullet hell variants? Can't they be more like, say, U.N. Squadron/Area 88, Strikers or Cho Ren Sha in which twitch playing and fast reflexes matter a little bit more than being able to squeeze between a barrage of tightly packed Pepto-Bismol pills? Or maybe anticipation, careful planning and strategy like Einhander's weapon management or R-Type's maze navigation? What about slightly unorthodox playing styles? Your ship could be using a boomerang (hats off to the SHMUP-DEV forumers who come here too, you guys rock) instead of your standard machine guns and lasers to kill things, among other means. Or bosses could be fought and killed using radically different methods than just plain shooting the core.

I'm personally intrigued at what G-rev is doing, especially what they did with Senko no Ronde DUO. A shmup that manages to combine the best of danmaku, arena shooting and a certain long-forgotten fighting game by the moniker of Psychic Force? Grant me that any day over another CAVE offering. Not to say that I don't like CAVE games or danmaku in general; it's just that we're rather oversaturated with bullet hells nowadays (similar to the oversaturation of Gradius and R-Type wannabes back in the 90's--deja vu?) and it's IMHO one of the factors contributing to the fast decline of shmups into strict niche gaming positions.

Many people here have observed the same phenomenon; namely, that a single video of merciless curtain fire dodging can turn off an ungodly amount of potential fans. Can we really blame people if they find Superplays intimidating? What if, instead of merely attempting to alter the customer paradigm, we change the design paradigm as well in order to cure the stagnation and isolation? Again, I'm not saying we need drastic, sweeping changes to the whole concept of shmups, to the point that they simply could not be categorized in any way, shape or form as shmups anymore (as someone else in this forum wisely pointed out). But as Yuji Naka's innovation philosophy goes, what if we only need to add just the right amounts (and the right kinds!) of change to make it happen?

Just food for thought. Back to work...

This.

I'll say, right off the bat, I don't play shmups well. That probably gives a fair bit of insight to my perspective.

I've played a few CAVE games, and I don't dislike them, but it seems like their newer stuff is, well, not what I truly enjoy. DonPachi and DoDonPachi are both excellent, fun games that I'd love to play again soon. Progear is fantastic as well. The thing is, all of those games are more than 10 years old. The newer stuff I've played is too confusing to even look at (Ibara.) Not to mention, the scoring system in that game is wholly incoherent - I got the high score the first time I'd ever played that on my buddy's board, and he's yet to ever beat it. For that matter, I've never topped it myself. Another friend of mine tried it the other day, and topped both of our high scores on his first try, but could never replicate that. When you're playing a game for score, but don't know how the hell things are scored, what fun is that?

In contrast to newer stuff that is very bullet-hell-heavy and mostly released in arcades, there used to be all sorts of stuff - Space Megaforce on SNES is a great example of a quick-paced game that didn't rely on ungodly numbers of bullets on screen. Pulstar for Neo Geo is uber-slow, and has a relatively low number of enemies on screen at any time, but requires thought and strategy on the player's part to determine what threat to eliminate first. On that note, Blazing Star had a very nice, coherent score system that actually displayed on screen a multiplier for taking out multiple enemies in a single blast. Fever S.O.S. implemented a system where you had to "rescue" people after shooting enemies to score; now, that wasn't the most enjoyable game ever, but damned if it wasn't more interesting than another bullet-hell.

Oh, and agreed on G-REV.It's interesting to see G-REV make a new mashup of genres (even if Psychic Force did it before). I'd gladly at least rent any new game they put out.

[MmSadda]

I don't know much about the first Ronde game (WarTech), but I was mentioning the sequel which is yet to be released in Japan on April 28th of this year. Still, it's looking pretty good from what's been shown so far, so I'll hold out on that first.

Now if G-Rev would actually make their videos showcase more gameplay instead of trying to explain every little nook and cranny of the game every 10 seconds with an annoying popup for 2 minutes before showing the actual battles.

Like Jockel said , pick the first one up from a bargain bin for like $10. The second one looks to be pretty similar, if expanded. I think it was a very enjoyable game, but I'd pay maybe $30 for it, not the full $60 they'll likely release it for.

[MmSadda]

Except that Treasure have so far made Puzzle Games dressed up to look like shoot'em ups. So while its true that a number of previously mainstream gamers found 2D shoot'em ups through the mainstream western release of Ikaruga, it can also be said that they were initially attracted to a puzzle game. A bit ironic, but there you go...

That may be true, but those games are a fair bit more interesting and innovative than most of the shmups in the past couple years....
Granted, I'd rather play Terra Diver than RSG if I'm going to play an STV Shmup, but that doesn't change the fact that RSG is a relatively interesting game.

For that matter, one of my favorite games is even closer to a puzzle game than a shmup - try Twinkle Star Sprites on Neo Geo if you never have. It's a competitive shmup with puzzle elements. Check it out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mcfzlj1bwk4

[rockyraccoon5]

What do STG or STV mean?

[speedlolita]

What do STG or STV mean?

ST-V is an arcade board, so I'm guessing ST-G is too.

I think shmups are quite a niche genre because they're quite hard, they're certainly niche in the UK despite the healthy amount of PAL releases we see on PS2 for some reason.

[chempop]

STG stands for ShooTing Game
STV is the kind of arcade board that some popular games were built for (Radiant Silvergun and Soukyugurentai, etc)

[MmSadda]

What do STG or STV mean?

I'm not sure where STG game from....

STV or ST-V or Sega TITAN is Sega arcade hardware, similar to a Neo Geo MVS 1-slot. It's similar to the Sega Saturn. Games were made for it between 1995 and 1999, I believe - I'm pretty new to it myself.

Shmups of note for the STV include Radiant Silvergun, a couple Cotton games, and Terra Diver. It was also home to Virtua Fighter Kids, Virtua Fighter Remix, and Die Hard Arcade

[Obiwanshinobi]

Exarion wrote;

Or maybe Treasure's coming eventually shmup will help?

Except that Treasure have so far made Puzzle Games dressed up to look like shoot'em ups. So while its true that a number of previously mainstream gamers found 2D shoot'em ups through the mainstream western release of Ikaruga, it can also be said that they were initially attracted to a puzzle game. A bit ironic, but there you go...

Treasure also made Gradius V, which is a straightforward, candid blaster first and foremost. On top of that, Konami have deigned to release Gradius V in all regions, with the PAL version featuring 60 Hz mode, at budget price. The world's got its chance.

[speedlolita]

Shame inflation has hit Gradius 5.

Missed a copy for £3 over at NTSC-uk just the other day.

[Exarion]

As mentioned in the Deathsmiles thread, that game has been receiving some attention at more mainstream sites. Maybe Deathsmiles will help break the barrier?

[neorichieb1971]

Lack of interest from major studios to make any?

Region specific titles?

Graphically subpar compared to most other genre's?


Lets face it, the genre would be totally different if Sony, EA, Konami, Sega, Hudson, Capcom were still putting money into the genre.


I also think a lack of HD content so far has really held it back as well.

[BryanM]

There are a few reasons

* These games are short. Why aren't there alternate courses? Freakin' Mario Kart has a few courses. Why isn't that a standard feature for the genre?

* Not much effort is put into difficultly scaling. Easy should let your 6 year old niece 1cc the game, hard should be a hellish nightmare that makes grown-ups cry.

* Glut. Thousands of these games have been released - the crap to non crap ratio is high.

* People just suck in general.

He asked; "What kind of game is this?" I replied; "Its a shoot'em up". He answered; "What like Halo?"

DAMN IT MAN.

This was the perfect chance to say "....what's a halo?"

[Udderdude]

Lets face it, the genre would be totally different if Sony, EA, Konami, Sega, Hudson, Capcom were still putting money into the genre.

Seeing as Capcom's one entry is that 1942 joint strike mediocrefest, I'm not exactly thinking that's a bad thing. Even when they do participate they don't seem to want to put any effort into it; it's seen as a quick cash grab. Fucking sad.

[Udderdude]

* These games are short. Why aren't there alternate courses? Freakin' Mario Kart has a few courses. Why isn't that a standard feature for the genre?

The general theme these days is 5 short, insanely well designed, super difficult levels that can be mastered over years of play. If a shmup went back to ye olde 8-10 lengthy level marathons, you can bet stage quality would overall suffer as a result.

* Not much effort is put into difficultly scaling. Easy should let your 6 year old niece 1cc the game, hard should be a hellish nightmare that makes grown-ups cry.

Since most of these are arcade games, easy mode doesn't look so good on the spec sheet when an arcade operator is reading it. Most console/PC shmups do have a wide variety of skill levels to choose from.

* Glut. Thousands of these games have been released - the crap to non crap ratio is high.

Arcade releases still have a high good/crap ratio. Console/PC, not so much (especially with over 9000 shareware/XBLA shmups that all blow doggies)

[PC Engine Fan X!]

* Not much effort is put into difficultly scaling. Easy should let your 6 year old niece 1cc the game, hard should be a hellish nightmare that makes grown-ups cry.

Since most of these are arcade games, easy mode doesn't look so good on the spec sheet when an arcade operator is reading it. Most console/PC shmups do have a wide variety of skill levels to choose from.

When arcade operators keen on making a profit to keep them afloat, they'll be searching for the perfect balance of difficulty to set their PCBs on. If it is set too high with the difficulty setting, then profit goes down.

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

[MmSadda]

There are a few reasons

* These games are short. Why aren't there alternate courses? Freakin' Mario Kart has a few courses. Why isn't that a standard feature for the genre?

* Not much effort is put into difficultly scaling. Easy should let your 6 year old niece 1cc the game, hard should be a hellish nightmare that makes grown-ups cry.

* Glut. Thousands of these games have been released - the crap to non crap ratio is high.

* People just suck in general.

He asked; "What kind of game is this?" I replied; "Its a shoot'em up". He answered; "What like Halo?"

DAMN IT MAN.

This was the perfect chance to say "....what's a halo?"

Agreed on most all counts.
As for alternate courses, I totally agree - what if Shmups had multiple routes like Starfox? It seems entirely feasible. For what it's worth, I do know one shmup that does this (albeit a level select screen, instead of opening alternate paths a la starfox): Ironclad on Neo Geo. That game also has some pretty decent music. Oh, for what it's worth, you can download it for the Wii Virtual Console, too.

Agreed on difficulty scaling as well. I've been getting progressively more and more into shmups over the past year, starting with Neo Geo titles like Pulstar and Blazing Star, moving onto more Neo games, and finally to some Xbox 360 and STV stuff.

Oh, and dude definitely should've asked what a Halo is.

[Ed Oscuro]

what if shmups had alternate gameplays

like you were prepared for halo but got command & conquer renegade instead

that would certainly add diversity and even replayability

but it could also FUCK UP THE GENRE

[ColonelFatso]

I'd rather play Renegade than Halo any day, at least it had SOME merit to it.

Also, I'd say Halo probably fucked over its genre far more than Renegade did.

[Rob]

Another friend of mine tried it the other day, and topped both of our high scores on his first try, but could never replicate that. When you're playing a game for score, but don't know how the hell things are scored, what fun is that?

If the high scores happened by accident, they should be easily overtaken with some knowledge of the systems. You can know how by spending a few minutes reading about it. It's odd that someone with an Ibara board (your friend) is not aware of this.

[orange]

posting to rep the stage 3 bgm from ibara

[Exarion]

Something interesting: I live in a city with two arcades: one medium sized and the other huge. Both of them recently stated that they had updated their stock, so I went to look at both of them. I found a total of 2 shmups between them: galaga and galaxian, which were both in the larger arcade's "classic games" section. Not even a raiden machine. it even advertises 200+ games, and had at least 50 fighting games and 25 arcade racers, but no shmups more modern than 88. Not good.

[Ixranin]

As for alternate courses, I totally agree - what if Shmups had multiple routes like Starfox? It seems entirely feasible. For what it's worth, I do know one shmup that does this (albeit a level select screen, instead of opening alternate paths a la starfox): Ironclad on Neo Geo. That game also has some pretty decent music.

As in the Darius games? G-Darius also had parts of stages you'd be given a choice to go up or down, and that would change which part of the stage you flew through.

Having a wide range of difficulty levels seems sorta iffy. If you're trying to get more casual players into the shmup genre using difficulty levels... they'll just play it through on easy, see the ending, and call it done. Same as credit-feeding, basically.

From the RPG people I talk to, it seems they want an RPG that has the tag "shmup" attached to it as a selling point, shmup gameplay be damned. I'd like to find a middlepoint someday, but it's quite a challenge trying to appease two entirely different crowds.