Duality ZF (Xbox LIVE Indie Games) coming soon...

[Xonatron]

Ultimately, every two player game supports "dual play", even console games. Just pick up two controllers and do your best. We are the first to natively support it. And the eight independently controlled fighters at once is more of a mainstream accomplishment. I'm sure everyone here knows of an obscure shmup that is 8 player or more. There's always obscure examples of something truly done first, but marketing is not the place to explain these mentions, as Jason said. (I am still interested in this stuff. I'd even blog about it, and have. But it won't make it in our short-cut marketing.)

The point is, the message we are trying to deliver to the average gamer is, there is definitely something different and new about Duality ZF. We are doing a lot that has not been done before, in a genre that is quite hard to innovate in.

[Xonatron]

Also showcased in that screenshot is our new control mode, called G-Mode. I'll let you guess at what it is, if you'll like it, and what it pays homage to.

galaga

I guess you win!

[emphatic]

Is it possible to play all single player mode with an arcade joystick? How many buttons does this game need?

So, how many ships can I control using just my joystick and buttons?

[Xonatron]

Is it possible to play all single player mode with an arcade joystick? How many buttons does this game need?

So, how many ships can I control using just my joystick and buttons?

Dual Play and the two multi-directional modes (Mult-Directional and Multi-G) both require both thumbsticks. So if your joystick has only the left thumbstick, you can play Solo Play and G-Mode.

[antron]

Is it possible to play all single player mode with an arcade joystick? How many buttons does this game need?

So, how many ships can I control using just my joystick and buttons?

Dual Play and the two multi-directional modes (Mult-Directional and Multi-G) both require both thumbsticks. So if your joystick has only the left thumbstick, you can play Solo Play and G-Mode.

people usually wire just the d-pad to joysticks. can we play with just the d-pad and buttons?

[emphatic]

Dual Play and the two multi-directional modes (Mult-Directional and Multi-G) both require both thumbsticks. So if your joystick has only the left thumbstick, you can play Solo Play and G-Mode.

people usually wire just the d-pad to joysticks. can we play with just the d-pad and buttons?

Yes, this is a dealbreaker actually, as many shmuppers doesn't play using 360 pads, but arcade sticks.

[antron]

from:
http://xona.com/2008/11/19.html

DUAL PLAY lets you control both fighters with the left and right thumbsticks. The d-Pad also controls the "left" fighter

so I'm guessing the d-pad will control the "only" fighter in normal mode.

[Xonatron]

The d-pad works and controls the first fighter, same as the left thumbstick.

[Doctor Fugue]

To take it a step further, is the movement of the ship analog (Geometry Wars) or separated into eight discrete directions (Raiden)?

[Jason]

Yes, this is a dealbreaker actually, as many shmuppers doesn't play using 360 pads, but arcade sticks.

I don't understand how you can be expected to control two fighters with independent motion with only one stick. G-Mode was actually created as an additional dual-fighter mode just for the ability to control two fighters with one stick. But Dual Play remains as a dual-fighter with independent motion mode, therefore you need two sources of motion input for those two fighters. Where would the second input arrive from? You can't make it the same stick, since you'd just cheat and move both fighters on top of each other giving you near god like control over them both simultaneously. If there are any control schemes we have not thought about, please let us know. If the arcade stick has an array of buttons that could be used as a D-Pad, then we could use that.

[Jason]

To take it a step further, is the movement of the ship analog (Geometry Wars) or separated into eight discrete directions (Raiden)?

The movement is analog. However, it is proportional to the square, not the circle, such that diagonal motion has both X and Y velocities added, as you expect with 8-way motion. You can use the D-Pad if you desire old school 8-way motion. Further, I process the control pad's raw input myself, rather than using XNA's default processing, which almost all Indie Games do, which locks to the 4-way directions when near them (I have no idea how their beta testing doesn't reveal this flaw, since I notice it immediately, and usually causes death since subtle stick changes results in no motion change). And there is no acceleration as in Geometry Wars. What you ask it what you get, immediately.

[Xonatron]

can we play with just the d-pad and buttons?

I'm sorry, I misunderstood this the first time I read this. Were you asking if you can play Dual Play with the d-pad for one fighter and abxy buttons for the other?

[emphatic]

Yes, this is a dealbreaker actually, as many shmuppers doesn't play using 360 pads, but arcade sticks.

I don't understand how you can be expected to control two fighters with independent motion with only one stick. G-Mode was actually created as an additional dual-fighter mode just for the ability to control two fighters with one stick. But Dual Play remains as a dual-fighter with independent motion mode, therefore you need two sources of motion input for those two fighters. Where would the second input arrive from? You can't make it the same stick, since you'd just cheat and move both fighters on top of each other giving you near god like control over them both simultaneously. If there are any control schemes we have not thought about, please let us know. If the arcade stick has an array of buttons that could be used as a D-Pad, then we could use that.

Sorry, I should have clarified that at least the single player modes (where you only control 1 ship) really should work with the d-pad AND the left stick to maximize compability. This is how all the CAVE ports work and my bet the Raiden games as well?

[DJ Incompetent]

If there are any control schemes we have not thought about, please let us know. If the arcade stick has an array of buttons that could be used as a D-Pad, then we could use that.

Since you're braving the territory of standarizing doubleplay controls:
1. You're going to have a really detailed button reassignment controller config screen, right? I want to be able to assign "right" ship up-down-left-right controls to the XYAB face buttons. On my arcade stick, I'd like to try assigning dedicated up-left, up-right, down-left, down-right controls to arcade stick buttons, as arcade sticks have button layouts usually more like a square, while handheld controller face buttons look more like a diamond. Obviously, holding any two adjacent movement buttons would make the ship move the middle of the two (Up button + Right button = diagonal Up-Right | up-right button + down-right button = horizontal right). Obviously there's no standard arcade stick button layout, so as long as you can't map any "right" ship controls to the left stick or d-pad, this is ok to consider, yes? Anyway, tap dodging with an analog stick is terrible controls, and I'd settle with facebutton movements instead, or even rig slider controls to trigger or bumper buttons as I want to.



2. Are you really gonna mandate holding down a fire button for one or both ships as we're trying to steer them? Can you rig some ergonomic control options where the player ships are firing automatically and the shot button holds the player(s) fire instead. I don't see a reason I have to hold a fire button down anymore unless Cave player movement mechanics have been added.

[antron]

can we play with just the d-pad and buttons?

I'm sorry, I misunderstood this the first time I read this. Were you asking if you can play Dual Play with the d-pad for one fighter and abxy buttons for the other?

just wondering about single ship, normal fire mode. lots of people will be using sticks like DJ posted (or cabs)

[Jason]

Sorry, I should have clarified that at least the single player modes (where you only control 1 ship) really should work with the d-pad AND the left stick to maximize compability. This is how all the CAVE ports work and my bet the Raiden games as well?

Yes Duality ZF works this way as well. All D-pads and thumbsticks control the single fighter. They all control the menus as well. Ease of control is something we've focused on. We've considered even adding X,Y,A,B to control the second fighter in Dual Play, in case you want the 8-way control of the D-pad for both fighters (although I'm not sure how well this will work).

[yyr]

just wondering about single ship, normal fire mode. lots of people will be using sticks like DJ posted (or cabs)

The d-pad works and controls the first fighter, same as the left thumbstick.

I can confirm 100% that the lever on an arcade stick is functionally equivalent to the d-pad. This is because my title, Snake360, works like that. You can just plug in an arcade stick and use it like you would use the d-pad. I didn't have to do anything to make this work; it was automatic. Unless Duality: ZF uses some weird custom way of polling the d-pad instead of this:

Code: Select all

if (GamePad.GetState(player).DPad.Left == ButtonState.Pressed)
{
    // move player to the left
}

then it will work.

EDIT: gah, just a few minutes too late.

[Jason]

DJ Incompetent,

1. There is no detailed button reassignment controller config screen. We assume everyone with an Xbox 360 also has an Xbox 360 controller or variant with 2 thumbsticks (or at least one D-Pad and one thumbstick). Without this, Dual Play and the two multidirectional modes are unplayable; you'd only be able to play Solo Play and G-Mode. I cannot guarantee a button reassignment screen will be implemented, it is very low priority. I want to do it, and if I do, I will take care to implement the proper direction when multiple buttons are pressed. This would involve implementing a custom control scheme screen that would complicate everything, but allow for extreme variety, such as using the two triggers to independently control the spread/laser duality independently for both fighters, for expert precision control. I need to be very careful about this, since simplicity of Indie Games are absolutely critical to their success: everything about Duality is made for simplicity; ease of learning, ease of control, it's why the fighters automatically fire in Dual Play and why you control both spread/laser dualities of both fighters simultaneously. Simplicity is crucial. Every new feature or control can complicate and scare away potential gamers. Again, I want to do this, but it's a sensitive issue, and not high priority at this time.

2. Dual Play has automatic fire.

Question: What are "Cave player movement mechanics"?

[Jason]

just wondering about single ship, normal fire mode. lots of people will be using sticks like DJ posted (or cabs)

All D-pads and thumbsticks move the fighters.
All buttons fire.
All triggers/shoulder buttons morph the spread/laser duality weapon.

[Jason]

... I want to be able to assign "right" ship up-down-left-right controls to the XYAB face buttons. ...

I am going to allow X,Y,A,B to control the second fighter, which means your arcade sticks will work immediately for Dual Play without a custom control config screen.

Question: Can you map the thumbstick on the arcade joysticks to either the left or right thumbstick?

[antron]

Question: Can you map the thumbstick on the arcade joysticks to either the left or right thumbstick?

cheaper ones like the green one above (EX2) do not feature this, and only work as a d-pad.

more expensive ones like the Hori Pro, or madcatz fightstick do.

some people like myself hacked gamepads, and can only access the d-pad.
but, I do have two hacked controllers on a two player panel. i would really love multi directional play using d-pad from different controllers, and play like robotron. but, this is way too problematic for the average user.

[antron]

Question:[/b] What are "Cave player movement mechanics"?

holding fire (as opposed to tapping it) gives a more powerful shot but slows the ship down

[Jason]

Question: Can you map the thumbstick on the arcade joysticks to either the left or right thumbstick?

cheaper ones like the green one above (EX2) do not feature this, and only work as a d-pad.
more expensive ones like the Hori Pro, or madcatz fightstick do.

I asked because if you could map the arcade stick to the right thumbstick, you could use X,Y,A,B to move, and the arcade stick to aim in the two multidirectional modes with no custom control config screen required.

i would really love multi directional play using d-pad from different controllers, and play like robotron. but, this is way too problematic for the average user.

This is problematic because the Xbox 360 is set up so that everyone thinks of a controller being associated with a gamertag/profile. Having two controllers control one fighter is definitely possible, but it makes a mess out of the whole thing. How is the system supposed to know the 2nd controller isn't attempting to join the game? How I can make a screen that someone less intelligent than Einstein could understand that gives all the possibilities of all 4 controllers controlling potentially 1 through 8 fighters, or all the same fighter, and which gamertag is the result associated to? Wow. This could be solved much more easily by playing nice with the console, and letting it think you have 1 controller hooked up, and do the joining mechanic in the controller's hardware (if you ever create such a thing, I'd love to see it!).

[sjoecool1991]

I wonder if the dual play will play similarly to Raiden IV's dual play mode...

[Jason]

I wonder if the dual play will play similarly to Raiden IV's dual play mode...

It will be easier to pick up and master. It auto fires meaning you don't have to worry about that. If you're used to the spread/laser morph feature (which you will be by the time you unlock Dual Play mode), you'll notice that it controls both fighters at the same time, so that worry is taken care of. Power up icons seek you out fairly (they are 'smart'). All you have to do is worry about moving the fighters. And if you find yourself in a mess, just stop moving them both and reorient yourself. Literally after 2 or 3 plays, our beta testers who have never played Dual Play before were doing well with it.

P.S. Raiden IV's Dual Play mode refers to 2-player mode. I answered your question assuming you meant Raiden IV's Double Play mode, which is the 2-fighter mode. Duality ZF refers to Dual Play as the 2-fighter mode. Multiplayer is called multiplayer, although Duality ZF never mentions that word. If you want join, press A. There's no need specifically start the game in a special mode just because you want your friends to join.

[yyr]

(which you will be by the time you unlock Dual Play mode)

I don't mean to cause further stress, but...
...your headlining feature, the main feature that (on paper) sets your shmup apart from others, needs to be unlocked? Are you sure you want to do this? I would have assumed that a) it was available from the start and b) it was the default gameplay option!

I can understand wanting to train the player on how the weapons work, but that's why many modern shmups have a "how to play" demo before the game starts, isn't it (Espgaluda, Triggerheart Exelica and Ikaruga being three such examples, although I think Ikaruga's was removed in the home versions)?

I would especially hope that players will be able to try Dual Play within the 8-minute trial mode.

[Xonatron]

re: full version:

Dual play may be alright for all of us here on these forums, but it is too much to ask right off the bat to the average gamer. So it's locked. Think of this like the Ferrari Enzo in Project Gotham Racing 2 (on the cover). It was one of the last cars to unlock, I think there were only 2 more cars behind it, despite it being the main car of the game.

Plus, we don't want to offer too much all at once. And we have to offer Solo Play. So to offer Dual Play means we need to offer Solo Play and Dual Play at the same time. But the control modes only unlock after you unlock all the game modes in the previous control mode. To offer both Solo and Dual Play, we would have to unlock all the game modes for both (see below)!

Confusing, but this is how it will unlock, in order (see below). Each mode unlocks after you play the previous game a tiny bit. As any full AAA title, we are not expecting everyone to unlock everything. Multi-Directional, G-Mode, and Multi-G were all considered to be bonus modes. We had considered hiding them from our press releases, to have fans freak out over them when they discover them. We ruled it would be best to showcase them before release.

Solo Play - Survival**
Solo Play - Home
Solo Play - Score Rush
Solo Play - Arcade
Solo Play - Bullet Hell
Solo Play - Boss Rush*
Dual Play - Survival
Dual Play - Home
Dual Play - Score Rush
Dual Play - Arcade
Dual Play - Bullet Hell
Dual Play - Boss Rush*
Multi-Directional - Survival
Multi-Directional - Home
Multi-Directional - Score Rush
Multi-Directional - Arcade
Multi-Directional - Bullet Hell
Multi-Directional - Boss Rush*
G-Mode - Survival
G-Mode - Home
G-Mode - Score Rush
G-Mode - Arcade
G-Mode - Bullet Hell
G-Mode - Boss Rush*
Mult-G - Survival
Mult-G - Home
Mult-G - Score Rush
Mult-G - Arcade
Mult-G - Bullet Hell
Mult-G - Boss Rush*

*Buss rush unlocks differently. It unlocks when you beat the 8-stage game (Home, Arcade, or Bullet Hell) in any control mode, in any difficulty mode, with any number of players. We just want to make sure you have seen the bosses (make sure you are worthy) before we present them all to you. Once you unlock Boss Rush, it is unlocked everywhere.

**Solo Play Survival is the only mode unlocked, right off the bat, in the full version of the game. The trial will probably have Multi-directional unlocked as well. This is ok, as you have no time to run through the unlocking strategy above in the trial mode.

As you can see, if we offered Dual Play off the bat, it would ruin this unlocking strategy.

Also consider that the bottom 3/5ths of the game is considered bonuses, the true game is in the unlocking of all the game modes in Solo Play and Dual Play. If it is any help, the unlocking of the modes will be quick and easy.

...

re: trial mode:

And locking out Dual Play (our main attraction) in the trial mode is exactly the "hook" we need to make the gamer buy the game. This is where our business sense comes into play. As a gamer, we want to give this all away. As a business, (think $40,000+ development), we want gamers to buy our game. What makes them buy it? Hooks. The want or need for more. What happens if you play Dual Play and get bored of it within a minute? What happens if it takes 10 minutes to get use to it, but the trial which cuts off at 8 minutes leaves you feeling like it sucks only because you have not yet got a hold of it? Then giving you Dual Play would be worse than holding it back for the full version.

...

Lots of thought have gone into this. And there is no right answer.

EDIT: Apologies for grammar/typos and all the edits!

[Jason]

I don't mean to cause further stress, but...

Your feedback is always welcome.

...your headlining feature, the main feature that (on paper) sets your shmup apart from others, needs to be unlocked? Are you sure you want to do this? I would have assumed that a) it was available from the start and b) it was the default gameplay option!

Yes it needs to be unlocked. Having it as the default option would turn so many people away from the game it wouldn't be funny. Dual Play requires at least 2 or 3 game plays for newcomers to get used to it. Only the experts would want to try their hand at it right off the bat. The reason it's not available from the start is because...

I can understand wanting to train the player on how the weapons work, but that's why many modern shmups have a "how to play" demo before the game starts, isn't it?

...the game has so much content, people aren't going to know what to do if too much was unlocked. Having unlocking, which all games with significant content has, allow you to deal with it one at a time, and gives a reason to continue gameplay. For us to succeed we need to have people wanting to come back, instead of being overwhelmed with too many choices. I think it's great that we're actually in the 'bad' position that we have too much to give to the user, and need to know how to deal with it properly, but this can actually kill the game. No other shooter has this much content... it's really more like Forza in the sense that you have a ton of control abilities and a ton of places to use it -- do you just make it all available all at once? That ruins the game and gives no sense of progress or achievement.

I would especially hope that players will be able to try Dual Play within the 8-minute trial mode.

That is almost certainly not going to happen. First, the people wouldn't have enough time to get good at it, and wouldn't buy the game. Secondly, it would mean losing that hook that normally gets people to say "hey, if I buy this, I can try XXXXX." The desire to play Dual Play causes people to buy the game to check it out. Only certain people will fall in love with it, so we don't want them to try it in the trail, dislike it, and think "this is all the game is about?", when that's unfair -- firstly, they aren't used to the controls and 8 minutes isn't enough to master it, and the game has much more than just Dual Play.

[TodayIsForgotten]

I see both sides of the arguement and i agree with both but i disagree with one.

I will play devil's advocate here:


The name of the game is Duality: ZF.
***Offering a single player game mode is already arousing suspicion or at the very least, misleading.

I understand Indie games on xbox usually means a lot of fucktwats and so forth, but why not offer both, anyhow? Most likely the first thing a newb or a casual player or a whatever is going to choose single player first to get a feel for the game. Then, their curiosity may peek them, dual play? What's this!?!? Oh wow, this is too hard or oh wow, this is awesome.

If anything have the other modes unlockable or again at the very least have dual play mode unlock other modes only or have single player unlock the easy difficulties and dual play the hard. Suggestions of course. That way, both sides of the fence can strive for something. If they really want it.

[Xonatron]

I see your point, TF, maybe someone will be an instant non-buy because they cannot test out dual play first. I am not saying it won't happen. It will. But for each one of those, how many will the hook work on? Selling is about hooks. Hooks done wrong can piss people off. Hooks done right can work like a charm.

You have made me want to rethink this. now.

In our testing we have found the idea of "dual play" to be far more interesting in concept than in reality, to most testers, when the time frame is short as in a trial (because they are not use to it, yet). If that is the case, it is better to offer dual play as an incentive to buy, than as an option to try. We are just not sure how accurate our tests are.

Plus, we found that multi-directional captures gamers quicker than dual play, so we thought we would unlock that instead (only in th trial). It's because gamers are use to geowars and whatnot. We can make use of their experiences, whereas in dual play we cannot.

Like i said before, there is no correct answer. Only a balance we must find.