President Obama

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CStarFlare
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Post by CStarFlare »

Ed Oscuro wrote:It's a good thing you didn't say "I'm sure that if anyone told 90% of us that ["we have enough money anyway"], because more than 90% of you aren't getting a tax increase under Obama's repeatedly stated plan. Did you pay attention to what was being said this election cycle?
tbh no I was too terrified by obama's blackness




I meant it more as a general statement that the vast majority of people aren't going to be all like "go ahead and tax me, I really do have too much;" a reduction of wealth is something that's rough for everyone (though oftentimes less so as incomes go higher).

I kind of assumed that's how BulletMagnet read it from his response so I assumed my wording was all right, but maybe I didn't make myself clear enough. It wasn't meant to be a direct commentary on anyone's tax plan, just a general observation.
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Post by RackGaki »

BulletMagnet wrote:But any redirecting of wealth to the top is NEVER labeled as such - it's not so much any specific number that irks me so much as the knee-jerk labeling, which is NEVER questioned.
Pundits and critics with The New York Times, DailyKos, Media Matters, Reddit, Digg, ABC, CBS, CNN and MSNBC questioned this quite thoroughly. And again, you are starting with the premise that the wealth is the government's to be redirected.

However, Vice President Joseph Biden infamously said that it was a patriotic duty for wealthier people to pay higher taxes, that "We want to take money and put it back in the pocket of middle-class people." As if this isn't currently being done. Such blunt statements are the pinnacle of the charges of socialism.

And they are socialist - our government has a myriad of socialist policies in place right now! I believe the problem we both have is using the term to inspire fear in the population. They need to be educated to understand exactly what this entails. As an ardent capitalist, I even find the class divisions Marx described as a more or less accurate way to describe historical economies - The Bourgeoisie, The Proletariat and The Lumpenproletariat. America can still be described this way more or less, but with a unique Western blend of Bourgeoisie and Proletariat that is unrivaled in history, and a strict upper class that is richer than he could have ever imagined. Things aren't nearly as bad as Marx had them out to be 150 years ago - I believe that of Marx's ten demands of Western society he outlined in The Communist Manifesto, we already have five of them in place - it's been eons since I wrote that paper in college, though.

Essentially, to further redistribute wealth and power more evenly - that is the Obama plan.
On that note, hopefully getting out of Iraq will free up at least a bit of money.
Obama will be able to remove soliders from Iraq due to the increasing security of the country. Between the surge and the 100,000 militiamen on the U.S. payroll, things are going relatively well there.

Obama has also expressed interest in boosting the troop levels in Afghanistan, which would nullify most, if not all, of the savings gained from lowering the American presence in Iraq. On a side note, I can't believe the inconsistency of supporting a surge in Afghanistan when he denies that the surge in Iraq was responsible for any of the gains in security in Iraq. Not directed at you, I just realized this irony while typing this up. :)
The trouble starts when you get into the details - is a universal health care system "for the greater good," or is "redistribution" of ANY kind patently "un-American," and thus not "the greater good?"
For clarification of terminology, redistribution of wealth is an essential task of government. Socialism redistributes wealth for the express purpose of smoothing out inequalities in wealth, power, and production among the population. The "greater good" didn't accurately describe my thoughts, and only reminds me of the movie Hot Fuzz now.

I wrote out a great deal more, and deleted it. Skip everything if you please. Cliff notes: We're already socialist in many areas, Obama simply wishes to expand.
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Post by GaijinPunch »

Damocles wrote:By law-abiding citizens that pass state and federal background checks (as is current law)? Yes.
God-fearing Christians pull the trigger as well, you know.
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Post by neorichieb1971 »

Why are Americans so afraid of socialism?

I suppose its great to live in a neighbourhood where the lowest priced house is $500,000 and 2 miles down the road people can't afford Mcdonalds to eat. That is the most ridiculous example of capitalism I have ever seen in my life.

The idea of socialism I thought was so that you give handouts to those people so you don't have to see them live like that.

But the American way is.. Get rich and get the furthest possible distance away from those who helped make you rich in the first place. Just like hospitals there, you only get treated right if the card your holding says you should be treated right.

GREAT!

Obama will teach you!
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Post by Zebra Airforce »

Jon wrote:Cautiously optomistic about BO but my enlightened state also ammended the state constitution to "define" marriage as man\women. We also reelected our batshit insane sheriff and county attorney. :oops:
Yep, absolutely terrible results. I still feel sick about it. Joe Arpaiioiao is so pathetic, it's like watching an old man have his late-life crisis right on the news. The ultimate reality show!
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Post by Ed Oscuro »

CStarFlare wrote:
Ed Oscuro wrote:It's a good thing you didn't say "I'm sure that if anyone told 90% of us that ["we have enough money anyway"], because more than 90% of you aren't getting a tax increase under Obama's repeatedly stated plan. Did you pay attention to what was being said this election cycle?
[...]
I meant it more as a general statement that the vast majority of people aren't going to be all like "go ahead and tax me, I really do have too much;"
So this is just a scare tactic on your part, rite? The vast majority of the people won't have increased taxes, and it's pretty blatantly obvious that nobody wants to pay more taxes if they can get away with it. Actually, I find the logical conclusion that 10% of the people are jumping for joy at increased taxes pretty lulzy. They must be the reparations gang or something.
Zebra Airforce wrote:
Jon wrote:Cautiously optomistic about BO but my enlightened state also ammended the state constitution to "define" marriage as man\women. We also reelected our batshit insane sheriff and county attorney. :oops:
Yep, absolutely terrible results. I still feel sick about it. Joe Arpaiioiao is so pathetic, it's like watching an old man have his late-life crisis right on the news. The ultimate reality show!
Yeah I saw that. Sorry for your sake. Maybe he'll do something so blatantly illegal that they'll be able to kick him outta office, perhaps.
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Post by Erinu »

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It's over 9000!

my frothing disregard for black people decreases
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Ed Oscuro
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Post by Ed Oscuro »

Haha, nice one. Congrats on escaping 666 posts too.
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Erinu
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Post by Erinu »

Ed Oscuro wrote:Haha, nice one. Congrats on escaping 666 posts too.
Thanks :D But I don't think I will be able to catch up to you any time soon.
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Post by Damocles »

Wait...are you calling me a "God-fearing Christian"?



Edit: Removed the rest. Remembered why I don't bring this up online.
Last edited by Damocles on Thu Nov 06, 2008 8:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Specineff »

Ed Oscuro wrote:Yeah I saw that. Sorry for your sake. Maybe he'll do something so blatantly illegal that they'll be able to kick him outta office, perhaps.

Arpaio? Oh, believe me, he already has, and is still here. The bastard will stay in office even if he's found having sex with unborn babies while sucking the brains out of freshly-drilled-holes in the skulls of still-in-agony pandas.
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Ed Oscuro
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Post by Ed Oscuro »

Something more blatant than what he's already done. Yeah, it'd have to be about as bad as you describe... :lol:
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Post by GaijinPunch »

Damocles wrote:Wait...are you calling me a "God-fearing Christian"?



Edit: Removed the rest. Remembered why I don't bring this up online.
That's not what I was saying. Just saying, that even people that pass all the background checks have lapses in judgement. It's a can of worms for another thread, I agree... I just don't think I've ever heard the argument that more guns on the street is a good thing (unless of course you're selling them).
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Damocles
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Post by Damocles »

Fair enough. I'll state what I know (minus my bias being raised in a gunshop) and be done with it.

People are idiots.
People, being idiots, do stupid things.
People are vicious.
Firearms/shooting/hunting can be fun.
Regulations do what they can, but people, being idiotic, vicious, and impulsive, fuck up a good, fun thing and the rest of us pay for it.


Note: A rough guess, but 85% of our clientel is comprised of hunters, the rest are either collectors or plinkers.
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Post by BryanM »

RackGaki wrote:And they are socialist - our government has a myriad of socialist policies in place right now!
I know man - fuck those god-damn kids and their public schools. Taking Ice Cream out of my mouth just so little Timmy's mom doesn't have to teach him math, p'efffffffffffffft.
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Post by GaijinPunch »

Damocles wrote:
People are idiots.
I whole heartedly agree... which is the main fuel for my hate of firearm prolification.
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Post by sven666 »

neorichieb1971 wrote:Why are Americans so afraid of socialism?

Obama will teach you!
hahaha :lol:
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Post by Skykid »

Octopod wrote:McCain is giving his concession speech now.
He came out to the theme from Days of Thunder! Lolz! :P
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Post by Octopod »

It seems to me that some people think that if a nation has social programs that it is a socialist nation. The US of A is nowhere near a socialist nation. The red scare tactics of the cold war no longer work either. Calling someone a socialist doesnt really bother people as much as some people would like.
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Post by neorichieb1971 »

Well being too democratic is quite dangerous as well. The hundreds of thousands of gun crime victims over the years could not vote this week because of it.
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Post by BulletMagnet »

RackGaki wrote:Pundits and critics with The New York Times, DailyKos, Media Matters, Reddit, Digg, ABC, CBS, CNN and MSNBC questioned this quite thoroughly.
If they have I certainly haven't seen it - in fact, to mention one thing I saw as it happened, just a few nights before the election, Charlie Gibson (of ABC News) had Obama on, and the first question he asked him was whether his tax plan was "a form of class warfare." It was STRAIGHT out of the RNC playbook - and he's supposed to be part of the "liberal media" (though he saw fit to spend time on the capital gains tax during one of the debates, and also insisted that an average teacher or fireman makes six figures a year, drawing scornful laughter from the audience). I'm sure that somebody out there has been asking the same questions as me, but those voices, at the very least, have been pretty much completely drowned out by the "class warfare" howlers.
And again, you are starting with the premise that the wealth is the government's to be redirected.
Again, I'm not particularly concerned with this part of the equation - seriously, whatever one believes or claims to believe (heck, Bush was all about "letting people keep their money"), whoever's in office is redistributing/shifting wealth in some form. My issue is with how shifts in one direction or the other are instantly labeled - I don't see how it isn't a double standard.
"We want to take money and put it back in the pocket of middle-class people." As if this isn't currently being done.
Last I heard the middle class has lost quite a bit of ground over the past administration's time in office, while the class gap has widened to levels not seen since around the time of the Depression. You have a link that says differently?
Essentially, to further redistribute wealth and power more evenly - that is the Obama plan.
If you want to use that definition, okay, but considering that "condensing the wealth" as has been done the past several years has gotten us into a huge mess, why is this such a cause for concern, beyond purely ideological reservations?
Obama will be able to remove soliders from Iraq due to the increasing security of the country.
Last I heard it was because the Iraqis are insisting that we get out.
On a side note, I can't believe the inconsistency of supporting a surge in Afghanistan when he denies that the surge in Iraq was responsible for any of the gains in security in Iraq.
I might be wrong, but I don't believe that Obama's actually suggesting a "surge" - he wants a more "permanent" troop increase, as opposed to a temporary influx. Of course, that's something of a moot point, since Bush's plan really wasn't a "surge" either, but an escalation.
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Post by escadrille »

This is all interesting, but what's Obama's policy on North American localization for Japanese shmups?
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Post by sfried »

Damocles wrote:People are idiots.
That I definitely agree with.
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Post by FatCobra »

I'm glad that Obama won. The mold of the president being an old white guy has been shattered. This is history in the making.

Actually, I'm not surprised that he won. After the damage Bush has caused, I think most people didn't want more of the same (McCain), war-mongering Republicans who only care about fighting pointless wars in some shitty third-world country, places we have no business being there. Can somebody please tell me why we are still over there in Iraq after we captured Saddam? And didn't this whole war start with 9/11, and the hunt for Bin Laden? How did hunting down that boogyman turn into a war in Iraq? Somehow I think Bush was just finishing the job his dad couldn't do and figured our country was his toy to abuse. This war has been a disaster and it has placed our economy in the crapper. Hopefully Obama will end that pointless war, focus on our problems, and quit policing everyone else.

I'm not expecting miracles with Obama, but he is a pioneer, he is change. Let's just hope he doesn't get assassinated by right-wing fascists. (If McCain was elected, he'd probably die of old age, just look at him, he's ancient).
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Post by moozooh »

FatCobra wrote:Can somebody please tell me why we are still over there in Iraq after we captured Saddam?
Control over resources/territory? Just guessing.
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Post by Specineff »

FatCobra wrote:I'm not expecting miracles with Obama, but he is a pioneer, he is change. Let's just hope he doesn't get assassinated by right-wing fascists. (If McCain was elected, he'd probably die of old age, just look at him, he's ancient).
Yup. And Palin would be president. And "Palin" sounds very close to "Stalin". :twisted:
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Post by RackGaki »

BulletMagnet wrote:
And again, you are starting with the premise that the wealth is the government's to be redirected.
Again, I'm not particularly concerned with this part of the equation - seriously, whatever one believes or claims to believe (heck, Bush was all about "letting people keep their money"), whoever's in office is redistributing/shifting wealth in some form. My issue is with how shifts in one direction or the other are instantly labeled - I don't see how it isn't a double standard.
Firstly, as before, it is patriotic to let individuals keep more of their money to spend on our economy. Rich or poor; I've never heard the argument that letting poor or working class folk keep their money isn't patriotic. People are more productive at spending their money wisely than a third party. Accountability and oversight of, say, charitable donations or a business are better handled by those who have a direct stake in the operation. You're ignoring the answer to the first part of your question - that letting people keep their own money has nothing to do with class warfare.
BulletMagnet wrote:why is directing wealth, in any amount and via any means, towards the wealthy "patriotic,"
Directing unneeded wealth away from government and into the hands of it's citizenry is productive.
BulletMagnet wrote:but directing it towards anyone else in like manner is "class warfare?"
Vice President-elect Biden wrote:We want to take money and put it back in the pocket of middle-class people
The Vice President said so himself: you, the middle-class of America, deserve more of rich America's money.
BulletMagnet wrote: the class gap has widened to levels not seen since around the time of the Depression
Evoking the income gap in classes as justification for higher taxes yourself?

Evoking class in these ways is antagonistic. Obama's original plan would have given rebate checks to everyone under makes under $2xx,xxx a year. Including the the 40% of people who pay no Federal Income Tax under the current tax structure. Refunding money to people who didn't earn it is not just redistribution, but a form of welfare. What makes me entitled to a piece of Bill Gate's pie?

Touching briefly on the income gap - Do you wonder why no one ever successfully makes the argument that the poor, working, or middle-class folk are worse off than they were twenty, thirty, or forty years ago? It's because they aren't. The income gap is widening because everyone is getting richer, but the Bourgeoisie are doing so at an even higher rate.

So, why is this particular form of income redistribution detrimental? Read up on basic Keynesian, and to a lesser extend, supply-side economics and check out a copy of Free To Choose by Milton Friedman from your local library.

I would like to know why you are so angry at the description of Obama's class wealth redistribution proposal, in all seriousness - this is the part of the debate I enjoy, to better understand the thought process of someone else. I suspect your philosophy aims at social justice through any means, if necessary, though I don't want to assume if I don't have to. :D
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Post by t0yrobo »

TriggerHeartExelica wrote:
t0yrobo wrote:
Besides that the proposals for medical marijuana and expanded stem cell research passed here in Michigan. So hopefully biomed stuff will have a better chance of pulling the state out of the shitter. And I can thumb my nose at the mega-conservatives at school who think that weed is some great evil (who would've thought that these people would be in an art school?)
Yes because publicly funded stem cell research is EXACTLY what Michigan needs right now. Do you even know wtf is up with Proposal 2? The state regulates pretty much everything from barbers, nail salons, acupuncturists and Proposal 2 makes the stem cell research industry exempt from the same regulations as previous mentioned businesses. Plus the taxpayers get to foot the bill even though lets see WE'RE BROKE. Don't go dancing in the streets for that one just yet because its not necessarily a good thing.
The proposal says absolutely nothing about public funding, read it. There could a push for public funding later, but that's a separate matter. and why would the sate regulate it, they already have to operate within set laws.
BulletMagnet wrote: Considering that in 2000 he hired a handful of infamous "race men" to head his Southern campaign, spoke out of both sides of his mouth on the Confederate Flag issue, and put out highly misleading robo-calls (and denied having done it until the voting was over), among other things, I somehow find myself skeptical of the whole "there are two McCains" story that's become popular of late. The only difference I see between now and then is that the media were far more willing to gloss over his unflattering qualities and actions than they have been more recently.
I don't disagree, but that's not what I was getting at. If he hadn't ran after 8 years of agreeing with pretty much everything George Bush put forward and having to support his policies as part of his platform it would have been a much more advantageous position for him.
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Post by Never_Scurred »

RackGaki wrote:Refunding money to people who didn't earn it is not just redistribution, but a form of welfare. What makes me entitled to a piece of Bill Gate's pie?
Image





But on the real though, Sheeeeeiiiiitttt, if Obama wants to cut us some checks, LET HIM.
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Post by FatCobra »

moozooh wrote:
FatCobra wrote:Can somebody please tell me why we are still over there in Iraq after we captured Saddam?
Control over resources/territory? Just guessing.
So basically we're still stealing their oil, right? :lol:

I'm thinking that the real reason we're still over there is because of the power vacuum Sadaam left behind. If Iraq was left unchecked, someone worse than Sadaam could take over.

Plus, Iraq is a good place to keep an eye over Iran, just incase they try anything funny with their nuclear program.

I guess we still need to be there, the Middle East is one huge shitfest right now. People blowing each other up just because they don't like the way they worship God or some other religious BS.
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