Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Anything from run & guns to modern RPGs, what else do you play?
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Sima Tuna
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Sima Tuna »

Fight 'n' Rage is the only modern beat em up that I have played which I feel can hold a candle to the ancient greats in the genre.

The ancient greats, I would consider to be these:

Final Fight
Streets of Rage 1 and 2 (yes, I like both about equally)
Knights of the Round (ideally SNES because of the control rework)
Double Dragon (NES)
Vendetta/Crime Fighters 2

There are a few old beat em ups with strong reputations that I haven't gotten around to yet. Those being mainly Violence Fight and Undercover Cops. I mention them so nobody thinks I believe the games are bad. I just haven't played them at this time.

When it comes to modern games which are awesome, and show a depth and intentionality of design similar to the old beltscrollers, I'd nominate these:

Fight 'n' Rage, as mentioned. Fight and Rage is a difficult but supremely fair game, with impossibly deep combat mechanics. It's clearly made by someone who understands what brawlers are capable of and knows that they are FAR from a mindless genre. The fact part of the difficulty increase manages game speed, and that turning this up doesn't snap game balance in half, really shows how well he thought through his design. The faster the game gets, the faster and better YOU get, and yet the game continues to work as intended.

Double Dragon 4. I don't know why I like Double Dragon 4 so much. It clearly reuses a lot of assets from the nes games, almost to a fault. Levels are sort of bland in appearance and a lot of mainstream reviewers slagged the game off as repetitive, boring, standard brawler complaints really. But it's surprisingly good! There are only two bullshitty platforming segments in the run, which is solid as hell by FC DD standards. :lol: The game is also a really nice length. A lot of modern brawlers are way too fucking long. DD4 is a 20-30 minute 1cc. Very manageable for repeat plays. Additionally, the game has extras out the ass, mostly in the form of extra characters. Almost every character in DD4 is playable in the main story mode. If you wanted to go through as Abobo, you can. Prefer Burnov? He's there too. Every boss and enemy is playable. I think the game gets more fun the more you play, because of all the extra characters. They're not particularly balanced, but that's also in service to fun. It's just enjoyable to kick back and stomp faces with an overpowered Abobo, and those hellish platforming segments (there are only two) serve to balance some of the overpowered characters. The stronger a character is in combat, the less good they tend to be in the platforming. Which tightens up the window of error on those platforming segments. Surprisingly clever design.

Just keep in mind that DD4 kind of looks like garbage at first blush. The visuals are very underwhelming. You have to dig in and play around to see how fun it is.

Streets of Rage 4 is a cool game, but it has some things I didn't care for. A lot of beat em ups made nowadays tend to be too long, and I also feel they abuse enemy and player i-frames way too much. SoR 4 is usually fine on this front until the bosses come out. Then it gets a little obnoxious. Old beat em ups abused i-frames too, but generally the "classic" ones were somewhat smart about how they did it. If not, then the game as a whole was so influential that such flaws could be overlooked. I like SoR4 and Adam is my favorite beat em up character to play as (in any game), but the karate guys and some of the bosses are shitty.

Okinawa Rush is very cool, but I haven't played it enough yet. I mention it because I think OR deserves a closer look by those who really love and understand beat em ups. It could potentially have as much depth as Fight 'n' Rage, but the community isn't there for the game.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Air Master Burst »

Okinawa Rush seems pretty cool but I'm not a huge fan of single-plane beat em ups.

I definitely prefer Capcom's CPS2 efforts to any of the classics you listed except SOR2. That said, Crime Fighters 2 gets bonus points for being the only good Konami solo belt scroller (Violent Storm looks and sounds absolutely wild, though, still have to try that one). AVP and SORR are still the peak of the genre for me, although I haven't tried the Oriental Legend games or really dug into Sengoku 2 and 3 enough to judge them properly yet.

Also greatly prefer Revenge of Death Adder and both D&D games to Knights of the Round (although I mostly stick to the arcade version). I want to like KOTR and King of Dragons but I've never got on well with blocking in belt scrollers.

Shredder's Revenge is easily the best version of b-tier Konami-style 4-6 person chaos I've tried yet. GOTY so far, although I haven't tried any of the other belt scrollers released this year.

I'm also fascinated by Paprium, from the Pier Solar people, but I think it's only had a Genesis release so far, and I don't have one anymore. Anyone get in on that?
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Sima Tuna
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Sima Tuna »

AvP has the same problem as metal slug 3. It would be a fantastic game at half the length. I can't abide the excessive run time.

I forgot to mention Golden Axe 3. Golden Axe 3 is the unsung hero of the Golden Axe series. Top quality gameplay and design.

You might also look at Mutation Nation IF you like jank neogeo beltscrollers. It's probably the best of those. I don't like Sengoku 3 at all. Or Sengoku 1. Sengoku 2 is brutal but seems decent.

Knights of the Round is my favorite Capcom beltscroller, alongside Final Fight. But I mentioned the snes version for a reason. The SNES port of Knights of the Round reworked the difficulty to be less brutal upfront, and added dedicated button mappings for things like superjoys and blocking. Blocking is much, much less obnoxious when it's mapped to one button. It's unfortunate that the SNES port isn't the version that receives modern console releases. Emulate it for sure and see what you think. SNES knights of the round also has additional stages that weren't in the arcade game.

Edit: Forgot to recommend Ninja Saviors/Ninja Warriors Once Again. Easily as good as Streets of Rage 4.
Last edited by Sima Tuna on Wed Jul 13, 2022 1:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Stevens »

Air Master Burst wrote:
I'm also fascinated by Paprium, from the Pier Solar people, but I think it's only had a Genesis release so far, and I don't have one anymore. Anyone get in on that?
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=59685&start=150

Here^: )
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTfqcMEr2Ic

Out of all CV1 nomiss/1CCs I've watched, this has to be most impressive IMO. Guy handles the RNGfest final stage with no stopwatch, just HW trickery madness.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Air Master Burst »

Good heavens, that Paprium thread was an incredible rabbit hole, although I admit to being FAR more interested in the TNWA debate than what appears to be a janky scam. I admit I don't care as much for single-plane brawlers, but TNWA is clearly a great one, even if it's not really my personal jam. I never really thought Genesis could hold a candle to SNES in the beat-em-up department. Despite SOR2 probably being the best console belt scroller of the era (I realize this is debatable), the Sega just didn't have a very deep bench. Of course, both systems were obviously guppies compared to what the arcade had to offer, and I have a lot of trouble playing the console version of pretty much any belt scroller that isn't Turtles in Time. This probably explains why I've never been able to get into Double Dragon.
Sima Tuna wrote:AvP has the same problem as metal slug 3. It would be a fantastic game at half the length. I can't abide the excessive run time.
AVP and Metal Slug 3 are probably my two all-time favorite arcade games. Although, I also enjoy the length of SOR4 and Shredder's Revenge, FWIW.
Sima Tuna wrote:You might also look at Mutation Nation IF you like jank neogeo beltscrollers. It's probably the best of those. I don't like Sengoku 3 at all. Or Sengoku 1. Sengoku 2 is brutal but seems decent.
Mutation Nation isn't too bad, didn't care for Sengoku 1. Both Sengoku 2 and 3 seem very divisive, so I'm hoping one of them clicks for me. It would be nice to have an actual good Neo Geo belt scroller.
Sima Tuna wrote:Knights of the Round is my favorite Capcom beltscroller, alongside Final Fight. But I mentioned the snes version for a reason. The SNES port of Knights of the Round reworked the difficulty to be less brutal upfront, and added dedicated button mappings for things like superjoys and blocking. Blocking is much, much less obnoxious when it's mapped to one button.
I'll give it a shot, although I really just don't like the very concept of blocking in my belt scrollers. I'm picky!
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Sir Ilpalazzo »

Good to see posts from both kitten and Squire! Squire, I definitely hope to see more from your project over time; the idea is awesome and drawing inspiration from TNWA is immediately interest-piquing.

To weigh on on the brawler discussion, here's my thoughts on a few games:

The Ninja Warriors Again, Final Fight: the most essential brawlers (TNWA isn't in the same exact space as belt scrollers, of course, but whatever). These two games have the most perfect alchemic blend of player movesets and enemy designs out of every game in this class - every tool in your moveset has a specific purpose, every enemy has a distinct role to fill. TNWA isn't as supremely difficult and dangerous as Final Fight, of course - even its hard mode isn't arcade-tough (though I wouldn't call it overly easy) - but it still puts enough pressure on the player to make its masterful design stand out.

Streets of Rage 4, Alien vs. Predator - also masterpieces, my other two favorite entries, but I don't think they're as elegant as the above two games. They lean more on the side of giving the player fun tools and excellent playable characters to use, which is tremendous fun in its own right, even if the enemy design isn't as supreme as in the aforementioned.

SoR4 mostly has excellent enemy design, but there are some types that stand out - the shield guys are boring, the bottle-throwing girls are annoying and a bit tedious, thankfully both enemies are rarely used. My main criticisms of the game are that it is undeniably too long and that its bosses are pretty limp and don't really threaten the player much. I do think the game stays exciting and varied throughout its runtime, though; it still has a strong lineup of enemies and does a good job of utilizing them throughout its runtime, which is saying a lot given how long it is. Its encounter design and sense for escalation are absolutely excellent and its player movesets are fun to toy around with; if it weren't for how much fun I'd had with Final Fight when going for the clear a few months ago, I'd call it the best belt scroller hands down.

AvP is masterful but I think it is so mostly on the back of Predator Warrior, who's one of the most fun and kinetic characters in the genre. I don't have any issue with the game's length, personally, but I will say its encounter design and enemy variety aren't as strong as the previous games. A lot of its fights start to feel samey, but there's just enough variation to keep things interesting, and thankfully that one fight template is always exciting due to how fun Predator Warrior is to use. I don't think the game is quite as strong with other characters - Linn has an impressively high technical ceiling, though I don't think she's as immediately appealing, and though I hate to say it, I think Schaefer sadly feels like a handicapped character - he has some of the most satisfying hard-hitting throws in the genre, but the way the game handles throws (enemies can't be grabbed out of attacks and will frequently attack thin air as a defensive measure against grabs) make him too weak.

Fight'N Rage - I've only started playing this game in the last few weeks, but it's brilliant. While SoR4 is a bit more methodical, this game captures and develops on the more manic and free-wheeling type of action you get in some of Capcom's later arcade brawlers. I still haven't dug deeply enough through this game to really talk about it (working towards a Hardest clear) but it feels like it, too, might be one of the best in the genre.

Streets of Rage 2 - a stellar game, and the one that comes closest to TNWA and Final Fight's masterful balance, though I don't think it's quite there. Max is one of the absolute coolest characters in the genre (SoR4 actually did him injustice by ironing out so many of his interesting nuances), and I think it says a lot about SoR2's strong encounter and enemy design that Axel is as fun as he is despite being comprised of basically just one move. My criticisms of the game would be its particular approach towards creating console-style difficulty, I suppose - it ramps up a bit slowly despite also having a slow pace in general, and I don't really like how their intent seems to have been to offset the large difficulty spike at the end of the game (stages 6 and 7 on Hardest are really something else) with the large life count you're giving; I prefer something like TNWA where it's all only balanced around the one life given to the player. And I hate fighting the ninja enemies. That said, this game is still probably in my top ten brawlers or so.

Batman Returns (SNES) - I don't think this is one of the absolute best games in the genre or anything, but I have to give a shoutout to it. I absolutely love its machine gun-fast pacing, its high damage scale - both you and enemies get torn up fast - its batarang stun mechanic, which feels wonderfully tactical. It has some awkward non-standard gameplay sections and a few poorly-judged bosses, but I think this is my favorite console-original brawler of the 8- and 16-bit era alongside the SoR series.

I've actually been playing a lot of 2D action lately, inspired by the discussion in the thread last page - which is a large part of what got me into Fight'N Rage - but for now I just wanted to post a bit about brawlers. I'm definitely interested in giving Final Vendetta a shot sometime, moreso than the new TMNT honestly - it looks rough around the edges for sure, but fun overall.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Sima Tuna »

I've rambled enough, so I'll just add that if Fight 'n' Rage seems cool to you, stick with it. The game gives back the more you give it. I don't know of any brawler with a deeper, more technical yet free-wheeling, improvisational combat system. I'd like to see Okinawa Rush get the level of high-tier play that people like Mark MSX have given to Fight 'n' Rage, and Antho has given to Streets of Rage 4. Just to know if the game has the legs I suspect it might. Final Vendetta also appears promising, but I have yet to play it. But for me, based on what I've played, Fight 'n' Rage and Ninja Warriors Once Again are the best modern brawlers. NWOA Yaksa is, like, sheer perfection in a character. Comparable with SoR4 Adam and SoR2 Max. I never did find a Fight 'n' Rage character who clicked with me, which is probably why I have the Normal 1cc but not a Hard one. :lol: I ended up bouncing between Ricardo and F. Norris and could never settle on a preference. Ricardo is probably the strongest for new players though, with his big UNGA damage and grab game.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Air Master Burst »

Sir Ilpalazzo wrote:Fight'N Rage - I've only started playing this game in the last few weeks, but it's brilliant. While SoR4 is a bit more methodical, this game captures and develops on the more manic and free-wheeling type of action you get in some of Capcom's later arcade brawlers. I still haven't dug deeply enough through this game to really talk about it (working towards a Hardest clear) but it feels like it, too, might be one of the best in the genre.
Just now cleared Fight'N Rage with Gal after my first real deep session, and I think you might be right. I admit I didn't know quite what to expect going in, and I was a bit put off by the aesthetic choices (the fanservice is still a bit more than I usually care for, but certainly nothing too offensive), but holy shit does it ever fucking deliver!

I'm a sucker for branching paths and this game does them well. I haven't tried all of them yet, but I have yet to run into any bullshit bosses or egregious i-frame abuse. Everything just feels really good, hits have nice visceral impact, and there isn't a janky hitbox in sight. There are admittedly a few nigh-useless moves for each character, but they all have enough tools none of them ever seem hobbled, and it's nice to have extra moves to throw into combos for stunting on mooks.

Despite my initial misgivings, the pixel art is actually very nice! The fact that corpse-killing isn't just encouraged, but all-out rewarded by an explosion of bones and extra bonus points is probably the most satisfying version of this gimmick I've ever seen. They let you button-hold to fast forward through cut scenes CPS1 style. It also has the best CRT filter I've ever seen on a retro title.

If there's anything to really complain about, it's the more advanced training combos being both needlessly difficult and functionally useless during actual gameplay, but the only thing that's really locked behind it are a couple palette swap costumes, so no big deal.

It's still early, but I think this is probably just an all-around better game than SOR4.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

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Air Master Burst wrote:Good heavens, that Paprium thread was an incredible rabbit hole, although I admit to being FAR more interested in the TNWA debate than what appears to be a janky scam.
Welcome to... RABBITHOLE DIMENSION Image Was a good one, that. :mrgreen: Turrican is an esteemed Shumps Homie, I'm sure he'll be back after inadvertently sparking The Great MD/SFC Dogpilling Of 2021. 3;

It's such a compelling mixup, the classic NO ESCAPE XY stricture of Dracula et al with the innate physicality of brawling!

"You dead now BERUMONDO! Imma bust your fuckin dome! WITH MY AXE!!!" (■`w´■)
"Ye but what if I grab you tho" (`w´メ)
"OH FUCC" (◎w◎;)

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It's something rather new and unique, and I'm surprised at least one other seasoned team didn't take a shot at it BITD. Of course there is ~teh future~ for that!

On that note, holy fuck, Squire and kitten returns on the same page. ;-;7 Great to see you both in such fine form. I myself am a bit shittered and currently preoccupied, cat+keychainesque with ACA Dragon Saber :cool:
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by it290 »

Sengoku 3 is a really impressively technical game. It's never fully clicked for me despite owning it for decades, but you have a lot of options and it's pretty fun to play once you figure out its somewhat idiosyncratic style. Definitely not one of the greats for me, but easily the best belter on the Neo.

I would like Fight 'n' Rage more if the stage design was a little better. That raft stage in particular just kills it for me every time. It's a fun game though and certainly offers a lot with its combo mechanics.

I think SoR4 stands firm as the modern master of the genre, though. The main mode has plenty of depth, and the roguelike survival mode is just too good. I don't really care about the fact that the runtime is a little long because the objective of the game is playing for stage rank, not overall score/clear. I can understand why that might not be everyone's preference, but it makes the game masterable in much more digestible chunks compared to a traditional beat 'em up.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Sima Tuna »

The raft level is entirely skippable in fight n rage, FYI. That level and that boss are avoidable in their entirety.

I don't like Sengoku 3 for game design reasons. The enemies have annoying attacks and are very bland. A lot of them look like they were made in MS Paint. Enemies also have a lot more hp than I think they should, primarily to encourage super long combo chains. Which is cool and all, but those long combo chains open you up to get bodied by other enemies.

The game has an absolutely glacial pace. You walk forward maybe half a screen, a bunch of shit spawns in, you kill it and then walk another half a screen. Beat em ups are unfairly maligned as repetitive and boring, but Sengoku 3 felt truly repetitious and dull to me. I understand why people like it though. If I were rating the game purely on the combat engine then it would get a 10/10. But I find all the other elements (enemy design, stage design, boss design, hell even music) extremely lacking.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Vludi »

Fight 'n rage is the modern beat 'em up I enjoyed the most (still need to play TNWOA), a bunch of modern beat 'em ups are inspired by either the Kunio series or SoR, so I liked that Fight'n Rage played more like Capcom's FF style games while expanding on some mechanics (though the parry arguably was a King of Dragons mechanic first). I'd like it better if it was balanced more like an arcade game: less lives, more reasonable spike for the last few stages or more food, but still it's just a great package.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Sir Ilpalazzo »

Air Master Burst wrote: Just now cleared Fight'N Rage with Gal after my first real deep session, and I think you might be right. I admit I didn't know quite what to expect going in, and I was a bit put off by the aesthetic choices (the fanservice is still a bit more than I usually care for, but certainly nothing too offensive), but holy shit does it ever fucking deliver!

I'm a sucker for branching paths and this game does them well. I haven't tried all of them yet, but I have yet to run into any bullshit bosses or egregious i-frame abuse. Everything just feels really good, hits have nice visceral impact, and there isn't a janky hitbox in sight. There are admittedly a few nigh-useless moves for each character, but they all have enough tools none of them ever seem hobbled, and it's nice to have extra moves to throw into combos for stunting on mooks.

Despite my initial misgivings, the pixel art is actually very nice! The fact that corpse-killing isn't just encouraged, but all-out rewarded by an explosion of bones and extra bonus points is probably the most satisfying version of this gimmick I've ever seen. They let you button-hold to fast forward through cut scenes CPS1 style. It also has the best CRT filter I've ever seen on a retro title.

If there's anything to really complain about, it's the more advanced training combos being both needlessly difficult and functionally useless during actual gameplay, but the only thing that's really locked behind it are a couple palette swap costumes, so no big deal.

It's still early, but I think this is probably just an all-around better game than SOR4.
it290 wrote:Sengoku 3 is a really impressively technical game. It's never fully clicked for me despite owning it for decades, but you have a lot of options and it's pretty fun to play once you figure out its somewhat idiosyncratic style. Definitely not one of the greats for me, but easily the best belter on the Neo.

I would like Fight 'n' Rage more if the stage design was a little better. That raft stage in particular just kills it for me every time. It's a fun game though and certainly offers a lot with its combo mechanics.

I think SoR4 stands firm as the modern master of the genre, though. The main mode has plenty of depth, and the roguelike survival mode is just too good. I don't really care about the fact that the runtime is a little long because the objective of the game is playing for stage rank, not overall score/clear. I can understand why that might not be everyone's preference, but it makes the game masterable in much more digestible chunks compared to a traditional beat 'em up.
I lean a little more towards SoR4's style of design than FnR's. I'm not making any kind of serious judgement yet, I need more time with the latter, but for the most part SoR4 is a bit more defensive and "enemy design" focused, where you absolutely have to play around each enemy type's unique strengths, whereas Fight'n Rage is a more aggressive game that's more focused on going all-out with your toolset and overpowering enemies (who are still distinct enough to require care as to what their formations are).

My only real concerns are that I don't like how stubby Norris's aerials are (I guess you have to dash jump in to make full use of them, as you do with Ricardo) and I'm not sure I like the idea of the universal parry; I can see it having a potentially negative effect on the game at the highest difficulty levels. I also think it's kind of weird that there are two consecutive boss rushes back to back at the end of the game.

I found the training mode stuff a bit annoying at first, but after getting black belts with Norris and Ricardo, I'm fine with it. Some of the combos are a bit showy and impractical, but they do teach you important connections you can make between certain moves of yours, and the repetition and mastery you'll have to take with the expert course in order to get the black belt drills those attributes into your head - it definitely helped me out with Hardest mode by helping me make more efficient use out of enemy openings. So training mode is more worthwhile than not.

The raft stage boss definitely annoys me. I don't really mind the raft portion itself that much, though it's definitely one of the more dangerous bits of the game, but that gimmick boss is a total pain. I can handle him well enough with Norris but not so much Ricardo. (Norris is my favorite character of the lineup, but Ricardo is undeniably the easiest to use. I don't care for Gal, but I never like fast characters in brawlers anyway.)

As far as the route splits go, I always just end up playing through the straight-ahead, no detours route. I feel like it has the most satisfying distribution and progression of boss battles - going left at the start leads you through that string of levels where the bosses are literally just normal enemies, which isn't as satisfying as getting big, unique fights to punctuate each stage.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Air Master Burst »

Sir Ilpalazzo wrote: The raft stage boss definitely annoys me. I don't really mind the raft portion itself that much, though it's definitely one of the more dangerous bits of the game, but that gimmick boss is a total pain. I can handle him well enough with Norris but not so much Ricardo. (Norris is my favorite character of the lineup, but Ricardo is undeniably the easiest to use. I don't care for Gal, but I never like fast characters in brawlers anyway.)
I mostly play as Gal, and I'm overall better with her, but that flying raft bastard went down super easy with Ricardo by baiting his charge into my double jump attack.

I really like how different bosses are significantly easier/harder depending on which character you're playing. I can absolutely stomp Minotauro with Gal but get bodied hard as Ricardo. Conversely, the twin bison fight in the nightclub is a cakewalk with Ricardo but Gal.has issues.

I'm sure a lot of this is down to personal style/preference. I came up on Capcom's 90s belt scrollers so I usually do best with fast combo characters (Kurosawa in AvP is my favorite of all), Gal just feels right to me while Norris is a bit awkward (his sliding dash annoys me so much).

I've pretty much totally ignored the parry system so far and don't feel like I'm missing much, although those two asshole bouncer dogs outside the nightclub almost make me want to learn.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BurlyHeart »

The raft boss in Fight'N Rage is hands down the easiest in the game.

You can do the up-down rising attack through all of his attacks. It will protect you vs the projectile and will hit him if he charges. When your special is recovered you can use that for a bigger combo.

For style points and a faster kill, you can parry the projectile to get your special back immediately, which you can then use once he charges.
Last edited by BurlyHeart on Fri Jul 15, 2022 3:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BryanM »

Due to the latest issue of NES Works, I learned The Wing of Madoola was a thing that exists, and I played it.

It's not on Athena level no, but I'd say it's pretty subpar. While I like the gigantic boost in power whenever you pick up another sword or boots ("If I have twice the sword, that means I have twice the damage right?" Nope, it's quadruple bro) and I like the MC's sprite (it has more character to it than Mega Man's imo), the rest of the thing is not okay.

Most of the enemies are these tiny little things that zip around that are difficult to hit. And they have the #1 ultimate sin of any video game in my opinion: they have infinite respawning, like it's a Call of Duty game or something. How's a man supposed to feel like he's making progress whenever anything you sword down reappears 0.1 seconds later?

The music is a painful disaster, there's only one pretty alright song in the game.

The pointless deadends of Blaster Master make an early appearance here. I like that the rooms just chuck their treasure at you immediately however. Altogether something that could have been better.

I kind of dread having to play Adventure Island 4 now... since now that I know it exists, I have to play it some time...

I also heard there was a Versus System version of Blaster Master I think? My feeble googling + checking Mame's listings dug up nothing. Anyone know anything about that? Did I hallucinate this information?
Last edited by BryanM on Fri Jul 15, 2022 6:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BIL »

Oh Madoola. >_< I was this close to picking up a lovely CIB copy several years back, on the opening stages' very promising "explore or die" premise. I like the concept of ferreting for treasure n' keys through semi-linear stages while being harassed by omnipresent twats, and I can't recall any titles from back then that do it with such vigor.

Then this happened!

EXPLORE THIS, ASSHOLE (■`w´■)凸
Spoiler
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And I wondered if it was some kind of emulator glitch. But nope, I don't think it was... switched emus and everything. Then it happened again a few stages later!

So we have a game that, AFAIK, 1) urges you to explore at breakneck speed, then 2) scatters random inescapable dead-ends all over, from which your only respite is to reset the fucking game and remember not to go there next time. What? :lol:

Like eating a very nice hero sammich with random olive pits to shatter a molar on. NO THANKS TOOTS Seems like a genuinely busted affair, unfortunately. I'd be delighted to have been mistaken, but my Sperg Force was truly fearsome at the time so I sadly doubt it. Rad box though! :o

VERSUS METAFIGHTO / VERSUS BLASTER MASTER sounds... interesting. If your buddy knows his shit, you're looking at ~45mins, at kindest, watching him RAWK OUT to the one-life clear? :lol: OTOH, if you're both random late 80s gamer kids, that might indeed be edutaining! :shock:

"Aight Timmy! You check all the doors, I'll bust out the graphing paper and note which ones AINT SHIT!" :cool:
"Why don't we just rent it and use the password instead of standing around here all day?"
"Ain't no passwords in Blaster Master, fool!"
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Ghegs »

BryanM wrote:I kind of dread having to play Adventure Island 4 now... since now that I know it exists, I have to some time...
Adventure Island 4 is pretty good, not sure why you'd be apprehensive about that.
I also heard there was a Versus System version of Blaster Master I think? My feeble googling + checking Mame's listings dug up nothing. Anyone know anything about that? Did I hallucinate this information?
Planned but never materialized, I believe.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BryanM »

I think you might be missing a set of boots in that gif, but thanks now I have to play the horrible thing again to see if that's really a potential hardlock...

Ok, I checked it and level 4 can put you into a kind of effective game softlock if you don't go into the pit at the first bridge. You can kill the boss and have no way to backtrack short of killing yourself and using the select+start continue. Without it, that cuts your movement and jumping height in like half. Since every upgrade is a factor of 2x or more, the game is extremely brutal if you miss an equipment pickup. (I assume that's why I hit a wall on stage 10 that broke my patience. Dying in two hits and not being able to quickly dispatch dragons, so taking hits and running through was the optimal strategy... (you can't back off and kill them with the fire sword: they instantly respawn 'memba?)) So I guess one would have to make a guide for themselves of a sort of very simplified Tower of Druaga type thing if they want to beat this thing.

... yeah, it's a hardlock with level 2 boots for me too. No way to suicide, she's stuck there only able to kill bats for eternity. Level 3 boots, you just jump up like a normal person.

Guess it's actually rather nice of them to let you know you done screwed up in such an open, timely, and acute manner. It's not like the typical kaizo thing where you'd go 20 levels thinking you were doing everything fine, but no, you fucked up 20 levels ago because you didn't pick up the green pickaxe or did pick up the cursed codpiece. Standard game design of the time and hey look how nice they are about it: you don't have to bomb every wall or blow a candle on every cactus.

The leap of faith in Metafight makes a lot of sense now. They were less gentle times.

I'm so predisposed to like Cadash-likes but so many of them fall so short man : / The Stockholm syndrome is already kicking in for me for this thing, but the awesome game it could have been is what I'm falling in love with, not the actual thing that it is..

... most of the sub weapons are so lame bro...
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BIL »

Aha, I did wonder if it was a "Miss X, get boned at Y" thing. TBH I prefer it when those things take the form of "fuck, now I can barely jump over the boss's fireballs!" and a swift death.

Which leads to the always-lovable "Now, is the boss really that badly-designed, or am I missing something" quandary. :cool: Had one of those in Dark Souls II the other day - that entire series of supposedly "SHOCKING NEW HARDCORE" being, of course, nothing more than oldschool ARPGs with a bit of stock Devil May Cry "crikey, I caught that dude right in he plums!" dynamite.

Just leaving me in a hole and making me get off my lazy ass to reset the console? Now that's overstepping the goddamn line :evil:
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Ghegs »

Anybody played Spidersaurs yet? The few reviews I found didn't answer the important questions:
  • How long does a full run through the game take?
  • Can you only carry one weapon at a time?
  • Can you lock moving and/or shooting direction?
A Steam review says the unlockable Arcade Mode is the exact same thing as Story Mode, only without the story parts, while the Speedrun Mode actually changes things a bit by making all the unlockable abilities (double jump, etc) available right from the start. Which might make the Speedrun Mode the most fun one to play.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by it290 »

I just watched a review which states that you can carry and switch between two weapons at a time.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Sir Ilpalazzo »

Got a proper clear of Fight'N Rage on Hardest mode. Now I'm gonna have to start looking at Insane.
BurlyHeart wrote:The raft boss in Fight'N Rage is hands down the easiest in the game.

You can do the up-down rising attack through all of his attacks. It will protect you vs the projectile and will hit him if he charges. When your special is recovered you can use that for a bigger combo.

For style points and a faster kill, you can parry the projectile to get your special back immediately, which you can then use once he charges.
Good looking out, this works well with Ricardo! I'll need to find a safer solution with Norris than relying on jumpkicks but this is definitely a good start; I forgot about the invincibility on your anti-air special and never use it for that purpose.
Air Master Burst wrote: I mostly play as Gal, and I'm overall better with her, but that flying raft bastard went down super easy with Ricardo by baiting his charge into my double jump attack.

I really like how different bosses are significantly easier/harder depending on which character you're playing. I can absolutely stomp Minotauro with Gal but get bodied hard as Ricardo. Conversely, the twin bison fight in the nightclub is a cakewalk with Ricardo but Gal.has issues.

I'm sure a lot of this is down to personal style/preference. I came up on Capcom's 90s belt scrollers so I usually do best with fast combo characters (Kurosawa in AvP is my favorite of all), Gal just feels right to me while Norris is a bit awkward (his sliding dash annoys me so much).

I've pretty much totally ignored the parry system so far and don't feel like I'm missing much, although those two asshole bouncer dogs outside the nightclub almost make me want to learn.
For Minotauro, if you didn't know, he's fully vulnerable to throw combos / target throws where you hold up or down at the end of an attack string. What's more, with Ricardo, it's pretty easy to throw him, then dash after him as he goes flying through the air and initiate another throw combo before he hits the ground - so you can keep chaining them together to pummel his life bar as long as an enemy doesn't step in. On Hardest and above, he will break out after a few loops (though the boss rush version at the end of the game never will, so you can safely get him up against a wall and easily beat him to death) but this still lets you do a lot of damage.

For the Doberman boxer enemies, just stand still and jab the air. If you chase them down, their annoying evasive, armored counters will tear you up, but if you stand and punch, they'll almost always charge right into your fists and eat shit.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Sengoku Strider »

Rockman Mega World on the Mega Drive.

Wow. This makes me really happy, I'm liking it much better than I'd been lead to expect I would. People always seem to describe this game with a hint of reservation. If nothing else, having this alternate universe 16-bit version of Mega Man 1 makes the whole exercise worthwhile for me. They nailed Bomb Man's theme in FM, I never would have guessed. In fact I think they really nailed the whole shift to 16-bit in general, this captures the OG look & vibe better than Mega Man 7 did.

The 8000 lb. elephant in the room is of course the slowdown. Yeah, I can tell this is why SoA passed on a retail release. It would've looked bad on them that a game the NES handled back in 1987 was bringing the Genesis to its knees in '94, in the middle of the bloodiest console war ever. Especially given how fantastic MMX had turned out to be.

I'm not super bothered by slowdown, but there are sections where Elec Man's weapon just grinds the game to a halt. The thing is, how hard could it have been to remedy this? There is absolutely nothing happening on screen that the hardware couldn't juggle with one processor tied behind its back. This game would've 100% gone down as an all-time memorable classic in North America if they'd just tightened the screws on that one.
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Violence Fight is more of a 1v1 fighter. I'm not sure it's really all that good, though I played it a ton when the nearby convenience store got the machine back in the day. As much as anything because of the wonderfully absurd translation, from the title on down.

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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Sima Tuna »

Sorry, I mean Violent Storm. I'm always confusing those names. Crime Fighters 3 and Undercover Cops are the two big names I haven't played yet. I keep hoping Hamster will port them so I can play more beat em ups on the toilet.

The dobermans in Fight 'n' Rage are extremely vulnerable to neutral jumps. You could learn the parry timings, sure. But you could also just stand there and neutral jump when they come in. You'll land, they'll be vulnerable and you can get a full combo. They can't do shit about this strategy and they die like punk bitches. Even when there is more than 1, just neutral jump twice before your combo. It's hilarious! The only enemy I parry are the charging bulls. I haven't found any other reliable way to deal with them when they do their full-screen charging punch. Sure, you can scroll up and down, but sometimes the charging punch tracks up and down. So I just parry them now. They're clearly meant to be parry bait. The flies are parry bait too. I think a parry puts them in hitstop in the middle of their flying dive attack, which allows you to get a full combo.

The enemies I struggle most with are Minotauros. Sometimes I absolutely destroy those guys, but other times they destroy me. I don't really understand how they work yet. They have a lot of i-frames with certain attacks. I usually end up killing them with a combination of chain throw combos and desperation attacks.

The evil cat doctor can be a pain too. Mainly when paired with armies of fodder enemies who keep you from locking him down. Again, with his charging attack, it's best to just parry it.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Air Master Burst »

The cat doctor chef thing is pretty easy as Gal since she's fast enough to just Z-axis dance around him. With Ricardo it requires a little more work, but the dash jump attack into combo string is pretty reliable here since it comes in too fast for him to respond. Just don't get near him when he's down and it's a pretty easy fight.

Minotauro is only really tough for me with Ricardo, but I haven't quite memorized his dash distance yet. Once I get that internalized he shouldn't be too tough.

The only dobermans that seem to ever give me any trouble are the pair outside the nightclub, but I'll try the neutral jump cheese and see what's what.

The hardest thing for me is probably still the beach segment where you have to fight at least 4 of those bird kickboxers at the same time. I can usually muddle through ok with Gal, but I always lose at least a life or two with Ricardo.

I usually die once to Attary too, simply becausenI haven't figured out the pattern on his iframes yet. Usually it's safe to hit him on the back end of his splash dive, but sometimes it just knocks him into an iframe windup.

ETA: the twin bison fight got a lot easier when I realized tossing mooks at them stopped their charge. Just start throwing dudes at them until they pause and then combo into oblivion.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BryanM »

The 16 bit consoles always kind of surprise me with how harsh their sprite limit really is. Anyone who's goofed in Lunar Magic knows Super Mario World has almost zero slots for enemies. Even Gunstar Heroes only creates the impression of a dozen guys dogpiling you, it doesn't literally do so.

They decided to put the bulk of extra RAM toward color depth and music, which is always what moves mainstream AAA games. The stuff could have been allocated to supporting more sprites or general memory if we were a different kind of animal, though. The kind that was more like Dwarf Fortress nerds.

Wing of Madoola is particularly poorly designed when it comes to tracking off-screen bosses: why did they make the rooms so huge? Just make them smol like Milon's Secret Castle if you don't have the ROM to write in a little routine to track their position without using VRAM or whatever...
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Air Master Burst »

BryanM wrote:The 16 bit consoles always kind of surprise me with how harsh their sprite limit really is. Anyone who's goofed in Lunar Magic knows Super Mario World has almost zero slots for enemies. Even Gunstar Heroes only creates the impression of a dozen guys dogpiling you, it doesn't literally do so.
SNES and Genesis games tend to work better with more enemy variety since they can't just swarm you, but unfortunately a lot of them went the easy route with palette swaps or cheating extra identical enemies with the 2p sprite slot.

This is why it breaks my heart we never got any great belt-scrollers for the Neo Geo, although I guess SNK was late enough to the party that belt-scrollers were already mostly out of style by then.

Mutation Nation isn't terrible, and a lot of people seem to love either Sengoku 2 or 3 depending on the person. Still though, it always boggles the mind how SNK could be so great at making fighters and so trash at making beat-em-ups.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BurlyHeart »

Air Master Burst wrote:The cat doctor chef thing is pretty easy as Gal since she's fast enough to just Z-axis dance around him. With Ricardo it requires a little more work, but the dash jump attack into combo string is pretty reliable here since it comes in too fast for him to respond. Just don't get near him when he's down and it's a pretty easy fight.
Minotauro is only really tough for me with Ricardo, but I haven't quite memorized his dash distance yet. Once I get that internalized he shouldn't be too tough.
I'm not sure if you're referring to Ricardo's dash distance or Minotauro's, but in case you don't know, Ricardo can throw loop Minotauro. Minotauro will break out of it eventually, and then just get back in. The fight can go badly fast though, with all the damage Minotauro does. I almost messed the fight up on this run, but you can see the intention and it might help with your timing:
https://youtu.be/2_CE2nTZ1a4?t=492
The only dobermans that seem to ever give me any trouble are the pair outside the nightclub, but I'll try the neutral jump cheese and see what's what.
Neutral jump works well to combat their charge. Time it well and you can combo into a throw when you land. The ideal plan is to get them against the wall and throw loop them to death, because even if they break out of your throw, they'll dash back into the wall, and you can start comboing them again.
The hardest thing for me is probably still the beach segment where you have to fight at least 4 of those bird kickboxers at the same time. I can usually muddle through ok with Gal, but I always lose at least a life or two with Ricardo.
Undoubtedly this is a tough section. Ideally, you should be parrying their kicks and get in that way. It can be hard to time though. On Unfair, they have the added bonus of jumping away when they're knocked down. I was having problems with it, when I came up with a real crazy-ass plan. Hurry to the end of the stage, gather all the enemies right at the end, then waste my health bar by continually doing special and racking up a big combo. I thought, if I'mgonna die, I'm gonna die my way. And maybe the big combo would be enough for an extra life. https://youtu.be/2_CE2nTZ1a4?t=2009
I usually die once to Attary too, simply becausenI haven't figured out the pattern on his iframes yet. Usually it's safe to hit him on the back end of his splash dive, but sometimes it just knocks him into an iframe windup.
Attary is a real pain in the ass, as he's the only enemy in the game Ricardo can't throw. I've since learned that he is vulnerable to punches from the Z-axis. If you adjust you position above or below him, he'll very often walk into your punches. Just gotta be aware of his air splash attack.
ETA: the twin bison fight got a lot easier when I realized tossing mooks at them stopped their charge. Just start throwing dudes at them until they pause and then combo into oblivion.
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